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I've been putting together a Geomancer prestige class.
If anyone cares to offer constructive feedback regarding the class I would be very appreciative.
I would like to fine tune the geomancer before I start working on the other three elements and having additional eyes look at the material is always helpful.
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My initial thoughts, I’d allow the prestige class in my game, I might even be tempted to use it myself sometime. Having said that that are a couple things I would consider changing.
I hate that acid is considered earth. I assume they wanted to make each element have a frequently used “energy type” but I will never agree with it myself. Still that’s a personal issue and there is no reason why you can’t leave it in for yourself.
How about mixed cases? For example Wall of Lava from the AGP has both the earth and fire descriptors. Do you get a net bonus, penalty, or do they cancel each other? Personally I’d let the bonus stand for any earth spell regardless of other descriptors, effectively making the earth descriptor more important and giving the geomancer a roundabout flavorful way to used some of the other damage types when needed.
For sorcerer bloodlines what about deep earth? It seems like it would fit well and give sorcerers at least one other option for becoming a geomancer.
Anyway good job overall. Hope this helps.
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My initial thoughts, I’d allow the prestige class in my game, I might even be tempted to use it myself sometime. Having said that that are a couple things I would consider changing.
I hate that acid is considered earth. I assume they wanted to make each element have a frequently used “energy type” but I will never agree with it myself. Still that’s a personal issue and there is no reason why you can’t leave it in for yourself.
It's the same issue I've had since 3'rd edition. I used to have a bunch of spells I wrote that addressed the issue.
How about mixed cases? For example Wall of Lava from the AGP has both the earth and fire descriptors. Do you get a net bonus, penalty, or do they cancel each other? Personally I’d let the bonus stand for any earth spell regardless of other descriptors, effectively making the earth descriptor more important and giving the geomancer a roundabout flavorful way to used some of the other damage types when needed.
Same way I rule things. Typically, as long as it has the earth descriptor it's good.
For sorcerer bloodlines what about deep earth? It seems like it would fit well and give sorcerers at least one other option for becoming a geomancer.
Anyway good job overall. Hope this helps.[/quuote]
Deep earth would fit thematically, I'll take a look at it.
interesting. Dot for now
Hmm. Ok, it's an interesting class and definitely a staple in the fantasy section. However, this class is surprisingly unbalanced. The only way to properly assess its balance is to compare it to an entering class, though it very much appears to be designed for sorcerers. We'll only consider full casters, as this doesn't offer much for specialized characters like the Summoner or Bard.
Sorcerer
Loses:
- Ability to cast [lightning] spells.
- Takes -2 caster penalty to all spells with [fire] or [cold] subtype.
- Can only summon creatures from Elemental Earth Plane.
Cleric
(we'll assume that the cleric is generic with 2 domains)
Loses:
- 2 BAB
- roughly 1 HP per level
- Must take Earth domain, which is arguable one of the worst available.
- Domain advancement.
- Channel energy advancement
- Ability to cast [lightning] spells.
- Takes -2 caster penalty to all spells with [fire] or [cold] subtype.
- Can only summon creatures from Elemental Earth Plane.
Wizard
Loses:
- Specialist advancement.
- Familiar advancement.
- Bonus feats.
- Ability to cast [lightning] spells.
- Takes -2 caster penalty to all spells with [fire] or [cold] subtype.
- Can only summon creatures from Elemental Earth Plane.
Witch
Loses:
- Hex advancement.
- Familiar advancement.
- Bonus spells.
- Ability to cast [lightning] spells.
- Takes -2 caster penalty to all spells with [fire] or [cold] subtype.
- Can only summon creatures from Elemental Earth Plane.
All
Gains:
- +2 caster level on [acid] and earth elemental summoning spells.
- Sorcerer bloodline abilities as a 10th level sorcerer.
- May cast spells in earth elemental form. (this is a big deal)
- DR 5/-
- Darkvision +30'
- Natural armor +2
- +4 con, +2 str
- Tremorsense 30'
- Subtype Outsider, no longer eats/sleeps/breathes (can go either way)
- +4 vs. diseases
- Immunity: bleed, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, stunning, being flanked, critical hits, and aging.
So... looking it over, I feel pretty resolute in my original assessment of the class. A sorcerer loses practically nothing and gains a crap-ton in return. The witch is a poor class to multiclass with, so it's hard to judge against her. The wizard and cleric still gain far more than they lose- in fact, the sorcerer and wizard both gain an improved fortitude save. And the entry requirements don't even have a lame feat tax like endurance or run.
All in all you've broken a conceptual rule for Pathfinder: prestige classes shouldn't be better than base classes. This prestige class doesn't accomplish much beyond making a casting class much more survivable and ramping up their power. Conceptually it doesn't accomplish more than letting the caster become truly one with her element, but that's already accomplished through the sorcerer bloodlines and druids wildshaping.
It's an interesting idea, but I think it's better served with an archetype or perhaps even a series of feats. Your concept here seems to be allowing the caster to become her element rather than just channel it. And you can do that with a feat that lets you cast while in earth elemental form (with the penalties you put forward).
Any caster can cast spells as an elemental, as long as the spell component pouch is removed from their person first.
Elementals can speak and gesture like a humanoid if roughly humanoid shaped.
For a sorcerer the spell component pouch is less of an issue.
Any caster can cast spells as an elemental, as long as the spell component pouch is removed from their person first.
Elementals can speak and gesture like a humanoid if roughly humanoid shaped.
Elementals can speak, for sure, but the concept of them being able to perform somatic components is hotly debated and unsupported (for or against) by the rules. It's very much a DM call at this point.
Elementals can speak, for sure, but the concept of them being able to perform somatic components is hotly debated and unsupported (for or against) by the rules. It's very much a DM call at this point.Any caster can cast spells as an elemental, as long as the spell component pouch is removed from their person first.
Elementals can speak and gesture like a humanoid if roughly humanoid shaped.
I don't know where the thread is, but I believe James did post somewhere supporting the ability of humanoid elementals to make somatic gestures. Not an official ruling, but good enough for me.
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I hate that acid is considered earth. I assume they wanted to make each element have a frequently used “energy type” but I will never agree with it myself. Still that’s a personal issue and there is no reason why you can’t leave it in for yourself.
I always thought sonic was more appropriate as an earthquake is essentially a massive sound wave traveling through the earth. But sonic always seems to be the forgotten energy type. So few spells use it and so few monsters have a resistance to it.
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All in all you've broken a conceptual rule for Pathfinder: prestige classes shouldn't be better than base classes. This prestige class doesn't accomplish much beyond making a casting class much more survivable and ramping up their power.
Sit the Geomancer side-by-side with the Dragon Disciple, the template I used when gauging balance with core rules.
Most, but not all of the benefits translate directly. The geomancer's primary deviations from the Dragon Disciple are as follows:
1. 1/2 BAB instead of 3/4
2. d6 hit die instead of d12
3. full spell progression (balanced by 1 and 2)
4. The explicit ability to cast in a single elemental form. As this ability can already be argued (elementals can assume humanoid form and are capable of speach). Either way, I wrote it explicitly to prevent this argument once 10'th level hits.
5. I've given up blindsense 60', dragon bite, 3 bloodline feats, breath weapon, wings, dragon form 2/day.
6. In exchange, I've picked up +2 natural armor, DR 5/-, and immunity to a number of effects (hunger, thirst, suffocation at level 7, your standard elemental immunities at 10). I enjoy +2 CL with my chosen element (at the cost of the ability to cast spells from one elemental subtype and a -2 cl penalty on two others). I have tremorsense 30' (standard sense for earth elementals), and I stop aging (an ability given at the apex of other prestige classes).
Yes it's intended for a full caster. It's written to accommodate all casters because I personally believe any spellcaster should have the option, even it's its not a min/max one.
While it's nice you think it works best for sorcerers. I prefer wizards personally. Bloodlines were included in keeping with the Dragon Disciple template for 2 reasons. a) the elemental savants in 3.5 had the ability to substitute energy types, something the Shaitan bloodline already has. b)I felt it thematically interesting.
Being an outsider is a break even. You pick up some nice advantages, but it comes with a serious cost. Big enough that many will choose to avoid taking 10'th level, especially sorcerers that can gain the advantages of being an outsider without the limitations. The list of immunities are standard fare for an elemental, but to get them you become much more difficult to raise should you die.
Yes, my concept is to allow the caster to become their element instead of just channeling it. I'm more or less revising the Elemental Savant prestige class from 3.0 to suit my personal vision. I'm working on each element separately since I want more variance between the elements than what was present with the Elemental Savant.
If you would care to do a power comparison directly against the Dragon Disciple I would be most happy to read it. I'll happily revise the class if you can convince me something is truly out of balance. I do intend for earth to be the most durable of the elements. (And Fire is the element I will have the most difficulty balancing, as I view it as nearly purely offensive in nature.)
As I've always been of the opinion that humanoid elementals were capable of casting, I actually consider the removal of that ability while in other elemental forms to be a disadvantage of the geomancer class.
The argument that humanoid elementals cannot cast is a debate for the rules section, not here. I've explained my position on that topic and won't discuss it further in this forum. RAW is sufficiently vague that the argument is pointless without an official ruling.
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I always thought sonic was more appropriate as an earthquake is essentially a massive sound wave traveling through the earth. But sonic always seems to be the forgotten energy type. So few spells use it and so few monsters have a resistance to it.
I hate that acid is considered earth. I assume they wanted to make each element have a frequently used “energy type” but I will never agree with it myself. Still that’s a personal issue and there is no reason why you can’t leave it in for yourself.
Personally: I used to have several dozen spells written with the earth descriptor that used bashing / piercing / slashing damage types.
No spell resistance, no energy resistance, but you had to overcome DR and / or make THAC0. Some of the entombment spells were comparable to other wizards save or suck spells of comparable level.
Response
You seem to have taken offense for something I said, for which I'm sorry. I see your class as overly powerful with middling disadvantages not likely to enter play for most characters (concerning the sorcerer).
You really, really appear to undervalue spellcasting. I didn't compare it to the dragon disciple because the dragon disciple is designed to be a melee-caster hybrid and that doesn't appear to be what you're going for here.
Here's the short of it: In terms of game power, a dedicated spellcaster is nothing if not the sum of her spellcasting ability. Sorcerer bloodlines, domain abilities, school bonuses.. those are just gravy. A spellcaster's true ability to contribute to a group is from her spells, and that can never be undervalued enough. It wouldn't be a difficult argument to say that the Witch and Druid are the only two full spellcasters who really rely on more than their spells.
So with that in mind, you look at the Dragon Disciple and see that they lose 2 spell levels while pursing this class of awesome dragon-ocity. They get to have great utility, powerful defenses, and cool tricks. But this comes at the sacrifice that they are now, and forever will be, 10% worse at doing what they dedicated themselves to do at character creation. For some people that's a reasonable sacrifice. For others, it's bewildering. The sorcerer is 3 levels behind a wizard, which means she's 2-3 levels behind her average CR. She's stronger, and has new and fun tricks, but she's taken a serious blow to her main offensive line. And that's why the prestige class is balanced.
A prestige class is supposed to be about sacrifice. It should never be better than the base class(s) required to get into it. At best it should break even, and that's been a core design philosophy with Paizo since right from the beginning. Step back, ignore the dragon disciple, and look at your prestige class. It's clearly and significantly better than the sorcerer levels the character might have otherwise taken.
I think it's a cool idea, and its definitely a fantasy staple. I'm not particularly a fan of prestige classes for the sake of prestige classes, but I'm interested in helping you build a unique and balanced class for your players.
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I agree with you on most of your points, especially the value of spellcasting, with most of the rest being gravy. And I apologize if I seemed to take offense.
No, I've no interest in developing a melee hybrid. I've seen how the dragon disciple gets used and have made an attempt to avoid that. (Melee classes splashing 1 level sorcerer + enough dragon disciple to get teh str increases + natural attacks).
I've revised the geomancer somewhat if you would care to take another look at it. Specifically, I've removed 2 caster levels and increased the hit die to d10 (In keeping with the earth is durable theme). I've also made a similar adjustment to the Aeromancer that I'm currently working on, minus the hit die increase (air is NOT more durable, just harder to catch)
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What about wizards with elemental schools? As written, an Air specialist could go in here. That's not consistent with the restrictions on the other classes.
As for the cleric: I'd say require Earth domain, but don't forbid other elemental domains. In many pantheons the Earth god also has another element in his portfolio.
Also, when you become Outsider, is it [native] and [earth]?