Where does it say you grass is barrier? For the sake of this question we are assuming the elemental can punch through earth.Logic.
Grass is vegetation, not earth. Earth glide work through earth.
As grass=/=earth earth glide don't work. You don't need any rule for that.The oracle powers citation was referred to the possibility that earth glide don't work through worked stone.
If people discount grass an obstacle for a creature that can freely pass through earth but not through living things it is their problems as they are short circuiting the rules to make it simple.
If my character is outdoor and a earth elemental is attacking me through the soil, I will move over the root system of a tree. The elemental would have the same problems of a man trying to attack me through a tick bush.
He can even use the same kind of solutions a man can use to attack someone hiding behind a bush: break the root system till he get a free area to move and attack or step outside the earth so that the root system is no more an hindrance.Same thing for the grass. He can punch a hole through it so he can freely attack or find a bare parch of earth and step outside.
They are not gliding through grass though, but I see your point. That is a very literal interpretation, and if I have to use that to stop an ability it probably wasn't meant to be.
The tree trunk is a good idea though, assuming any trees are near.
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Note that the terrain make a lot of difference. When I speak of grass I am thinking of my home country, where the grass cover is tick and you need to do some work to pass its root system.
If you are thinking of some Arizona like territory where the grass cover is sparse it will be very different.
20 cm (8 inches) of intertwined root system aren't something that you easily bypass. It would be like attacking through a mattress.
Note that the terrain make a lot of difference. When I speak of grass I am thinking of my home country, where the grass cover is tick and you need to do some work to pass its root system.
If you are thinking of some Arizona like territory where the grass cover is sparse it will be very different.
20 cm (8 inches) of intertwined root system aren't something that you easily bypass. It would be like attacking through a mattress.
ok. That is different. I was thinking of the grass in people's yards that little kids could ignore.
BTW: this thread has just given me a evil idea:
Stone Oracle with the clouded vision curse.
Earth glide and: "At 10th level, you gain blindsense out to a range of 30 feet. At 15th level, you gain blindsight out to a range of 15 feet."
I am probably going to steal that idea for an enemy NPC. :)
BTW: this thread has just given me a evil idea:
Stone Oracle with the clouded vision curse.
Earth glide and: "At 10th level, you gain blindsense out to a range of 30 feet. At 15th level, you gain blindsight out to a range of 15 feet."
Except you'd need line of effect for either of them.
The way I treat earthglide/tremorsense in my games.
1) Tremorsense isolates the square you are in, provided tremors can travel from that square (you are standing on solid ground). Sand imparts penalties to the perception check. Standing on a raised platform (such as a stage) just let's someone know that something is moving on the stage, not where it is on the stage (the stage is touching the ground, and imparting second hand tremors).
2) Earth elementals can reach up out of the ground and attack. However, they have a 50% miss chance, same as someone who has located an invisible creature through sound or smell. They know the person is there, but they don't know exactly where because they can't see them. This doesn't apply to two earth elementals fighting under ground, since both are in the same medium (both in earth). It's the transition from earth to not-earth that throws the elementals off when attacking up out of the ground.
3) An earth elemental that attacks out of the ground can be attacked if you ready an action to do so when it attacks (and also interrupts their attack, as a readied action does).
The way I treat earthglide/tremorsense in my games.
2) Earth elementals can reach up out of the ground and attack. However, they have a 50% miss chance, same as someone who has located an invisible creature through sound or smell. They know the person is there, but they don't know exactly where because they can't see them. This doesn't apply to two earth elementals fighting under ground, since both are in the same medium (both in earth). It's the transition from earth to not-earth that throws the elementals off when attacking up out of the ground.
I like this... going to nab that for my home game. :)
I find it funny that my thoughts in that other thread have been expanded from Touch Attacks to slams.How can one do a touch attack, but not a slam. The rules really don't care whether it is a touch attack or not.
By the rules either you can ignore cover and concealment or you can't.
In my estimation of it, it wasn't that the Earth Elemental was performing a touch attack. It's that burrowing under the target qualified as an incidental touch that discharged the spell. Perhaps that is a flawed understanding of discharging a held charge, however. I was under the impression that if you held a charge and, for example, somebody slapped your hand, the spell immediately discharged.
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so... does Tremorsense ignore concealment?
automatically pinpointing anything in contact with the ground would mean knowing with 100% certainty "your feet are here", and allow pretty unerring strikes at your feet/legs.
An alternate definition of tremorsense can be found here.
Tremorsense (Ex)
An eidolon becomes attuned to vibrations in the ground, gaining tremorsense out to a range of 30 feet. This works like the blindsense evolution, but only if both the eidolon and the creature to be pinpointed are in contact with the ground. The summoner must be at least 7th level before selecting this evolution. Source: Advanced Player's Guide
That should address your specific question.
In my estimation of it, it wasn't that the Earth Elemental was performing a touch attack. It's that burrowing under the target qualified as an incidental touch that discharged the spell. Perhaps that is a flawed understanding of discharging a held charge, however. I was under the impression that if you held a charge and, for example, somebody slapped your hand, the spell immediately discharged.I find it funny that my thoughts in that other thread have been expanded from Touch Attacks to slams.How can one do a touch attack, but not a slam. The rules really don't care whether it is a touch attack or not.
By the rules either you can ignore cover and concealment or you can't.
Being under someone does not equal touching, and to touch someone an attempt must be made. In this case it is mechanically a touch attack. In any event reaching through cover either is, or is not possible. If it possible then you can attack through cover.
In short the question is does the barrier between us stop me from touching you?|
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Except you'd need line of effect for either of them.BTW: this thread has just given me a evil idea:
Stone Oracle with the clouded vision curse.
Earth glide and: "At 10th level, you gain blindsense out to a range of 30 feet. At 15th level, you gain blindsight out to a range of 15 feet."
Ach, foiled by the rules ;)
Tertiary question: Why do Earth Elementals have eyes? They are described as having gemstones that glow for eyes, but if the Earth plane is solid, what use could they possibly have for a visual sense?
Note that the terrain make a lot of difference. When I speak of grass I am thinking of my home country, where the grass cover is tick and you need to do some work to pass its root system.
If you are thinking of some Arizona like territory where the grass cover is sparse it will be very different.
20 cm (8 inches) of intertwined root system aren't something that you easily bypass. It would be like attacking through a mattress.
This implies that clever adventurers at low level in a dungeon with earthen floors could stand on their shields (for example) to get some substantial protection from the submerged elemental, which is also appropriate and thematically fitting, I think.
I like making attempts to think beyond the human constraints on senses, so the notion that an Earth Elemental (or anything else with Earth Glide) can execute attacks against creatures in direct contact with the earth without emerging is an idea that I can get behind. However, the question of how these attacks are adjudicated is a different matter. In the case of the Earth Elemental with Tremorsense, while I like the fluffy implications of allowing the Elemental to ignore the earth-surface-barrier as a source of concealment, I have to agree that Tremorsense as written merely pinpoints a creature and does not negate concealment. (I have a strong issue with the fact that the Concealment rules are heavily viso-centric while creatures that use sensory modes other than vision as their primary sensory mode exist.)
That said, I would rule that the Elemental could make called shots (at the listed penalty, ref. Ultimate Combat) at the specific body parts making earthly contact without a miss chance due to concealment, but that would be a house-rule.
As for why the Earth Elemental should be able to execute attacks (however badly directed) while submerged, consider the wording of the ability: "A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water." (Italics added for emphasis.)
I don't think that anyone would have an issue with an aquatic familiar swimming over to a water-walking target standing on the surface of the water and executing an attack while remaining submerged (for all practical purposes). If this is true, then surely the same should be true for creatures with Earth Glide with respect to the earth that they can glide through. The issue of the accuracy of their targeting is a separate one from the issue of the reasonability of the attempt to attack.
They are not gliding through grass though, but I see your point. That is a very literal interpretation, and if I have to use that to stop an ability it probably wasn't meant to be.
I find fault with this reasoning applied to the effects of an Extraordinary ability.
To stop a sword swung at me, I interpose another physical object between the blade and my skin, such as armor or a shield. This is a very literal interpretation that is clearly meant to be used to "stop an ability". (Stopped abilities: Power Attack, Cleave, Vital Strike, etc., all Extraordinary abilities.)
To protect myself from the sneak-attacking arrows shot by my roguish opponent, I can dart into a bank of fog or dash behind a hedge, thereby granting myself the benefit of concealment and precluding the ability of the rogue to apply precision damage (under most circumstances). This is also a very literal interpretation that is clearly meant to be used to "stop an ability".
I find fault with this reasoning applied to the effects of an Extraordinary ability.
I was talking about blades of grass, not the grass the other poster was talking about. We cleared that up in a later post.
I was talking about blades of grass, not the grass the other poster was talking about. We cleared that up in a later post.
I find fault with this reasoning applied to the effects of an Extraordinary ability.
Ignore the grass, an Earth Elemental can't actually punch through the earth. It can't magically pass through stone. Despite the name (which is merely descriptive fluff), Earth Glide doesn't mean that the elemental mystically glides through stone. It just means that it can burrow just as fast as it can move above ground (represented in the fact that his burrow speed is exactly the same as his base speed.)
No punching through the ground, no touch attacks through the ground. It HAS to surface to attack, same as any other creature.
I agree with you.
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so.. you want tremorsense to work just like blindsense. except that tremorsense would be worse, since not only would you need line of effect but both parties would have to be touching the ground?
uh, no. well not in my games at least. its fine that a druid wildshaped into an earth elemental can't do it, because he lacks the tremorsense. but an actual earth elemental has tremorsense. so he could do it.
i'm not familiar with the inner sea world guide. in golarion that may be what the plane of earth has been expanded to. the core book and dm's guide listings of the plane of earth list it as solid rock, and warn travelers about plane shifting in without some protection otherwise they can just be encased in solid earth.
i've always looked at earthglide as the elemental simply displacing earth as a swimmer would displace water. that's why the ability is separate from just having a burrow speed. creatures with just a burrow speed actually dig a hole, they're like the drill used in comparison. an earth elemental can dive into earth like a swimmer diving into water. they're much better adapted for moving underground. as they should be considering their native plane of existence.
Obscured vision oracles get blindsense at 10th level and blindsight at 15th. Deaf oracles get scent at 10th and tremorsense at 15th. the way i look at it, that places the power level of tremorsense more on par with blindsight than blindsense. regardless of the eidolon evolution.
Quick note... the Plane of Earth is NOT a solid mass of rock. Pg. 240 of the Inner Sea guide describes it as a place with "caverns the size of planets", "mineral veins like rivers", and "hollow geodes like pocket crystalline seas".
ISWG is a campaign setting book and, while it clarifies the Plane of Earth for Golarian, it does not apply to all game worlds.
Fine, in the GameMastery Guide, it describes the Plane of Earth as a place where a traveler "MIGHT find himself entombed" implying that there's a chance that he won't find himself entomed.
Furthermore, Plane of Earth is an earth-dominant plane. The GMG describes Earth-Dominant planes (mind you, the Plane of Earth is the only plane IN that book that's classified as Earth-dominant) as followed:
Planes with this trait are MOSTLY solid. Travelers who arrive run the risk of suffication if they don't reach A CAVERN or OTHER POCKET within the earth.
GMG is not a campain setting rule book, and thus would likely apply to all worlds.
Actually, if I remember correctly, different game worlds would still be connected to the same planar worlds.Either way, if the Plane of Earth is all solid rock, than it must be a peaceful place, because it doesn't say anywhere that they can do anything other than determine a creatures location with tremorsense. And it doesn't say anywhere that they can attack while in the earth.
So the now that the earth plane evidence is no longer substantial what else are we trying to negate?
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what about the plane of earth is negated? that because there are some pockets and caverns that all encounters happen there? thats a little human centric talespinning.
so two elemtal gangs are gonna have a throw down, meet up at the quartz spire cavern? really?
yes. earth glide allows them to pass through stone and earth. thats what the ability states. yes they have a burrow speed just as fast as their ground speed. that doesn't mean that they don't swim through the earth. you're ignoring fluff with fluff.
i propose a marshmellow plane of existance and air elementals with mellow-glide abilities.
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It can also be said that earth glide specifies a "burrowing earth elemental", which is an established form of movement. implying that if it's attacking than it is no longer burrowing... and thus no longer benefits from earth glide.
Earth Glide (Ex)
A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water.
Flight (Ex, Sp, or Su)
A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. If the creature has wings, flight is an extraordinary ability. Otherwise, it is spell-like or supernatural, and it is ineffective in an antimagic field; the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists.
Swim
A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its indicated speed without making Swim checks
By an extension of your logic, any creature using a form of movement not explicitly mentioning attacking is unable to attack while moving.
That is, air elementals (or anything else, such as birds or characters with a fly spell) cannot attack while flying, water elementals (or anything else, such as fish) cannot attack while swimming, etc.
Only land movement is explicitly defined as having an attack method. This is not to say creatures native to other environments cannot attack while moving. It is merely that land movement is the dominate form of movement employed by characters, and thus has had the most rules developed.
Tremorsense has always been a different and slightly weaker form of blindsense. Weaker in that is has more restrictions(target must be touching the ground). Just because you know where someones feet are touching the ground doesn't mean you know which their balance is shifted, which direction they are moving, etc. In an actual fight, there are tons of visual clues that warriors use to anticipate their foes attempt to dodge, and thus make the attack connect. Without those visual cues, hitting your foe becomes a lot harder. That is what concealment represents.
SRD on invisibility
Invisibility
The ability to move about unseen is not foolproof. While they can't be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt.
Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision.
Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger's favored enemy and from sneak attacks.
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.
Pinpoint is a very specific term that deal with invisible and effectively invisible(total concealment) creatures. Note, it specifically states that pinpointed creatures still benefit from total concealment miss chance.
Pinpoint is a very specific term. It means you know their general location(5 foot square), but they still get concealment miss chances.
Tremorsense SRD
Tremorsense (Ex)
A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text.
Tremorsense specifically uses the term pinpoint, and no where in the tremorsense rules does it state that is negates the miss chance from concealment. If the rules don't state tremorsense negates the miss chance from concealment, then it doesn't.
As for the earth elemental attacking from underground. It can do that, but it suffers from the 50% miss chance from total concealment unless it actually comes out of the ground far enough to actually see the target. It it comes out that far, then it is attackable, although it would still have cover. As other people have mentioned, anything other than earth between the elemental and the target would give the target cover.
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Fish don't have an extraordinarity ability that specifically states that it works when they're swimming. Because fish are always swimming.
The problem is, Earth Elementals don't magically just phase through stone. They dig through it. Hence burrowing. If they magically phased through stone, they wouldn't have a burrow speed.
Incoporeal creatures can phase through stone, but they don't have to burrow through it.
Earth Elementals have to physically burrow through the stone to get to their target. Yes, they can easily ambush somebody this way, but ultimately they still have to burrow to the surface in order to make an attack.
The real 'fluff' is where it says "pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims throught water."
That's fluff text. And it still only applys to burrowing earth elementals.
Compare it, again, to a drill. A drill can dig through the earth relatively quickly, but even if it has an arm built onto the side, it can't punch straight up.
So the use of the term "burrowing" is a rule set in stone while the use of "it can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water" is fluff.
No. You are choosing what is fluss or what isn't simply based on your vision of the world. You should look at how they are made, not at what you want them to say.
Earth elemental: Speed 20 ft., burrow 20 ft., earth glide
Notice how his burrowing speed and earth glide are separated?
Let's look another creature with burrowing speed.
Ankheg: Speed 30 ft., burrow 20 ft
It simply list a burrowing speed.
So earth glide is something separated by the simple burrowing movement, right?
Let's see the ability
Earth Glide (Ex) When the creature burrows, it can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing the burrowing creature flings it back 30 feet, stunning it for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
It say:
a) When the creature burrows, it can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water.b) If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava.
c) Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence.
d) A move earth spell cast on an area containing the burrowing creature flings it back 30 feet, stunning it for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
You say a) is fluff.
b) is true even for creatures tunnelling with pure physical means if protected against fire.
c) Nice, but how you explain that if they are physically tunnelling through the earth? More fluff?
d) A drawback. The spell has no effect on burrowing creature that tunnel through the earth but affect creatures that use earth glide. That mean that earth glide is somewhat different form tunnelling, right?
So if we follow your line of reasoning and a) is fluff earth glide is a weaker version of burrowing as it has further drawback than the normal form of burrowing and half of the power description is fluff.
It seem that you are stretching the rule "a bit" to make it say what you want and not what the rule say.
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Fish don't have an extraordinarity ability that specifically states that it works when they're swimming. Because fish are always swimming.
Compare it, again, to a drill. A drill can dig through the earth relatively quickly, but even if it has an arm built onto the side, it can't punch straight up.
And your logic as applied to the extraordinary ability of flight?
Should we apply your logic there?
The earth is the earth elementals natural environment. It's movement through the earth is just as natural to it as a fish's movement through water or a birds movement through air.
Swim is listed as a specific ability, seperate from the rules characters use and possessed by specific creatures. The only reason it's not listed as an extraordinary ability is that creatures without a listed swim speed are still permitted to make the attempt. Creatures lacking fly or earth glide cannot make a skill roll to use these abilities if they do not already possess them.
As to the second part. Drills are punched straight down all the time. Nothing stops the reverse from happening except your personal inability to travel through the relevant environment.
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Well you have to note, Seraphim, that the caverns can be the size of PLANETS. That's certainly enough space to establish territories within caverns.
And if you want to talk about 'human centric'. Every setting in the game should be designed to be 'human centric'. If it's impossible for PCs to ever go there, it shouldn't effectively exist as far as game mechanics are concerned. There are rules that allow players to exist in planes without gravity, or planes that are poisonous, or planes that emit constant damage of some type. But what would the point of having a plane of earth if all that happens when you get there is. "Whelp, you're stuck in an infinite plane of dirt. You can't breathe, and it's crushing you. Even if you find a way to stop being crushed and learn to breath dirt, you still have to find a way to dig in order to move. And even if you do that, there's absolutely nowhere to go because the whole plane is dirt."
That sure makes for some compelling adventures on the Plane of Earth.
In the old Manual of the Planes, the plane of Earth is listed as being the most hostile of the elemental planes for exactly these reasons.
If the party was not either aiming specifically for a pocket of another element (water and fire are also valid) or very well prepared, the plane of Earth was a death sentence.
Interesting discussion. I always assumed Tremorsense worked like Blindsight with a limitation, not Blindsense. But it makes sense that it works more like Blindsense.
Not sure where this thread is but just tossing my hat into the "tremorsense doesn't negate total concealment" crowd.
Tremorsense lets you pinpoint creatures in range as long as they're on the ground. Line of effect is not necessary, and that's the primary reason why tremorsense is about as powerful as blindsense most of the time. The "line of effect" is through the ground. So if there are 3 people standing in an adjacent walled-off room, you know they're in there (and exactly where they are) via tremorsense. You can't "see" them though, so they still have total concealment.
Blindsense lets you pinpoint creatures in range. You must have line of effect. If you can't see them, they still have total concealment.
Blindsight is blindsense++ most of the time. It negates any form of concealment. You still must have line of effect.
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Furthermore, if you want to look at it from a game mechanics issue. Earth Elementals shouldn't be able to freely punch through the earth without emerging themselves because that would be a rediculously overpowered ability.
Take a small Earth Elemental. CR 1. Meaning a party of Level 1 players SHOULD be able to kill it.
But how exactly are they going to manage that if it can hit them without ever being seen?
Or a spellcaster with an elemental familiar, freely using it to inflict touch attacks. That's beyond good tactics, that's an exploitation of game mechanics.
It just doesn't work that way. And I've yet to see any actual book wording that says it does.
Readied actions come to mind.
Same way a party would respond to sharks doing swim-by attacks on their rowboat.
As for the wording, it's in the very first line of earth glide's description.
Earth Glide (Ex)
A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water.
Unless, of course, your ruling that fish cannot attack while swimming.
automatically pinpointing anything in contact with the ground would mean knowing with 100% certainty "your feet are here", and allow pretty unerring strikes at your feet/legs.
Knowing the location of a person and knowing the exact location of a persons feet are not the same. The only sense I know about that specifically acts like vision is Blindsight. And that says in the rules that it functions as such. Tremorsense doesn't say that, so clearly it doesn't work like vision. I think people compare it to Blindsense because that's the closest comparison.
But even if we look at it your way the 50% miss still applies. After all even if you can exactly pinpoint those feet it will be like attacking a blinking target. Every step the target takes will cause the feet to vanish suddenly and reappear somewhere else. And people are constantly moving their feet especially in combat.
what about the plane of earth is negated? that because there are some pockets and caverns that all encounters happen there? thats a little human centric talespinning.
so two elemtal gangs are gonna have a throw down, meet up at the quartz spire cavern? really?
yes. earth glide allows them to pass through stone and earth. thats what the ability states. yes they have a burrow speed just as fast as their ground speed. that doesn't mean that they don't swim through the earth. you're ignoring fluff with fluff.
i propose a marshmellow plane of existance and air elementals with mellow-glide abilities.
The arugment presented before was basically that the plane of earth was a giant rock so earth elementals could not fight if tremorsense did not work like blindsight and earth glide did not allow one to punch through stone. Now that we know it has caverns that means they can fight in the caverns, and those interpretations of the abilities are not necessary for earth elementals to function normally within their owns worlds.
Tremorsense has always been a different and slightly weaker form of blindsense. Weaker in that is has more restrictions(target must be touching the ground). Just because you know where someones feet are touching the ground doesn't mean you know which their balance is shifted, which direction they are moving, etc. In an actual fight, there are tons of visual clues that warriors use to anticipate their foes attempt to dodge, and thus make the attack connect. Without those visual cues, hitting your foe becomes a lot harder. That is what concealment represents.
SRD on invisibility
** spoiler omitted **
Pinpoint is a very specific term that deal with invisible and effectively invisible(total concealment) creatures. Note, it specifically states that pinpointed creatures still benefit from total concealment miss chance.Pinpoint is a very specific term. It means you know their general location(5 foot square), but they still get concealment miss chances....
Pinpoint still lead to concealment. Thanks. I never noticed that word used in invisibility before.
Once again in case it was missed
Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).
Furthermore, if you want to look at it from a game mechanics issue. Earth Elementals shouldn't be able to freely punch through the earth without emerging themselves because that would be a rediculously overpowered ability.
I'm not saying that its correct or incorrect, but that's the way that I've always seen it done in 3.5.
Mind you we never confused tremorsense for blindsight, and as such they would have the 50% miss chance.
Likewise readied actions would be able to hit them as they reached out to attack.
But in practice it seldom came up as elementals do not have that high an INT score and tend to prefer being able to see targets.
-James
If they are below the ground you can't attack them since they never leave the ground, and you also can't attack limbs in D&D since that is a called shot which are not in the rules.
You don't need that high of an int score. Even hyenas which are dumber than elementals know to stay out of reach of danger when attacking. When a bunch of them jump an old lion or a large creature they do it in such a way that they can't don't get hit, as much as they can help it. They only have an int of 2.
Could it be that the real problem is that burrowing/earth glide and related were not detailed as they should have been?
We all know the earth elemental can pinpoint what square a creature standing on the ground is occupying. The question being added to that is whether the elemental can target unerringly through this ability to deliver a touch attack.
Personally, I fall on the side of the 50% miss chance because it pretty clearly states that the elemental can pinpoint location, but says nothing about it actually being able to "see" its target's form.
But that's not my point. My point is that it is never clarified (that I know of) whether or not a burrowing creature must emerge at least partially to make an attack (in which case, it would roll normally for the attack and have only cover). Incorporeal beings must do so; they must emerge partially to make an attack, in which case they can be seen, and have only cover.
If somebody can find a rule stating whether burrowing is treated the same way, the argument would be over. I happen to think it ought to be treated as such. A burrowing worm cannot bite a character through the dirt, after all. The earth glide description indicates it is a form of burrowing. So get a ruling on whether a burrowing creature can attack without emerging, and have done with it!
Could it be that the real problem is that burrowing/earth glide and related were not detailed as they should have been?
We all know the earth elemental can pinpoint what square a creature standing on the ground is occupying. The question being added to that is whether the elemental can target unerringly through this ability to deliver a touch attack.
Personally, I fall on the side of the 50% miss chance because it pretty clearly states that the elemental can pinpoint location, but says nothing about it actually being able to "see" its target's form.
But that's not my point. My point is that it is never clarified (that I know of) whether or not a burrowing creature must emerge at least partially to make an attack (in which case, it would roll normally for the attack and have only cover). Incorporeal beings must do so; they must emerge partially to make an attack, in which case they can be seen, and have only cover.
If somebody can find a rule stating whether burrowing is treated the same way, the argument would be over. I happen to think it ought to be treated as such. A burrowing worm cannot bite a character through the dirt, after all. The earth glide description indicates it is a form of burrowing. So get a ruling on whether a burrowing creature can attack without emerging, and have done with it!
In order to ignore cover(granted by solid things) you need a rule specifically saying you can. The only creature that has that ability by the rules is incorporeal creatures, so until someone post an exception to the rule, and burring and earth glide have both been quoted, then they can't.
In order to ignore cover(granted by solid things) you need a rule specifically saying you can. The only creature that has that ability by the rules is incorporeal creatures, so until someone post an exception to the rule, and burring and earth glide have both been quoted, then they can't.Could it be that the real problem is that burrowing/earth glide and related were not detailed as they should have been?
We all know the earth elemental can pinpoint what square a creature standing on the ground is occupying. The question being added to that is whether the elemental can target unerringly through this ability to deliver a touch attack.
Personally, I fall on the side of the 50% miss chance because it pretty clearly states that the elemental can pinpoint location, but says nothing about it actually being able to "see" its target's form.
But that's not my point. My point is that it is never clarified (that I know of) whether or not a burrowing creature must emerge at least partially to make an attack (in which case, it would roll normally for the attack and have only cover). Incorporeal beings must do so; they must emerge partially to make an attack, in which case they can be seen, and have only cover.
If somebody can find a rule stating whether burrowing is treated the same way, the argument would be over. I happen to think it ought to be treated as such. A burrowing worm cannot bite a character through the dirt, after all. The earth glide description indicates it is a form of burrowing. So get a ruling on whether a burrowing creature can attack without emerging, and have done with it!
Right, exactly what I'm saying. This is an important point that has been overlooked. Somebody official should step in and rule whether a burrowing creature can bite/attack through earth or if it has to emerge. What I'm saying is that that is actually the crux of the argument, but everybody is ignoring it in favor of arguing over the meaning of "pinpoint." There's a bigger question at hand here, and the rules appear to be silent on it.
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I think people compare it to Blindsense because that's the closest comparison.
People compare tremorsense to blindsense because the rules specifically define tremorsense as working in the same manner as blindsense.
Tremorsense (Ex)
An eidolon becomes attuned to vibrations in the ground, gaining tremorsense out to a range of 30 feet. This works like the blindsense evolution, but only if both the eidolon and the creature to be pinpointed are in contact with the ground.
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Even if fish swims in dirt, it's STILL going to have to emerge from the surface of the ground to attack you. Just like it would if it were in water, because if you're getting bit by a fish, it's either because you're under the water, or the fish has Russian Commando training.
I take it you've never had a 12' shark come out of water at you? I have. Fortunately I was not the target, the Kingfish I was pulling into the boat was. Try explaining bringing home 1/2 of a fish.
I suggested the same tactics for dealing with earth elementals that I would use to combat a shark doing swim-by attacks on a boat. Prepare a readied action and wait.
The party would receive concealment, as tremorsense does not negate it, the earth elemental would receive some degree of cover during it's attack. Neither side would operate very effectively.
This, of course, would be the reason most elementals would choose to emerge from the ground to attack. Not because they must, but because it's more effective.
Right, exactly what I'm saying. This is an important point that has been overlooked. Somebody official should step in and rule whether a burrowing creature can bite/attack through earth or if it has to emerge. What I'm saying is that that is actually the crux of the argument, but everybody is ignoring it in favor of arguing over the meaning of "pinpoint."...In order to ignore cover(granted by solid things) you need a rule specifically saying you can. The only creature that has that ability by the rules is incorporeal creatures, so until someone post an exception to the rule, and burring and earth glide have both been quoted, then they can't.Could it be that the real problem is that burrowing/earth glide and related were not detailed as they should have been?
We all know the earth elemental can pinpoint what square a creature standing on the ground is occupying. The question being added to that is whether the elemental can target unerringly through this ability to deliver a touch attack.
Personally, I fall on the side of the 50% miss chance because it pretty clearly states that the elemental can pinpoint location, but says nothing about it actually being able to "see" its target's form.
But that's not my point. My point is that it is never clarified (that I know of) whether or not a burrowing creature must emerge at least partially to make an attack (in which case, it would roll normally for the attack and have only cover). Incorporeal beings must do so; they must emerge partially to make an attack, in which case they can be seen, and have only cover.
If somebody can find a rule stating whether burrowing is treated the same way, the argument would be over. I happen to think it ought to be treated as such. A burrowing worm cannot bite a character through the dirt, after all. The earth glide description indicates it is a form of burrowing. So get a ruling on whether a burrowing creature can attack without emerging, and have done with it!
The rules are not silent on it. Something like that would not be overlooked. If that was the intent it would have been stated. The fact that something that powerful was not stated means it was never intended to do so.
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Right, exactly what I'm saying. This is an important point that has been overlooked. Somebody official should step in and rule whether a burrowing creature can bite/attack through earth or if it has to emerge. What I'm saying is that that is actually the crux of the argument, but everybody is ignoring it in favor of arguing over the meaning of "pinpoint." There's a bigger question at hand here, and the rules appear to be silent on it.
In this thread there are 2 very definite positions on how earth glide work and if it allow the earth elemental to attack trough earth or not.
People supporting one position will not change their position based on what is said in this thread, so the discussion about earth glide had reached the stall point.If and when someone from Paizo will give an official answer depend only on how often the FAQ button is pressed.