Sadly, this is incorrect. It's actually just part of another action. Doesn't specify. It can be any action. If you talk (a free action) you can jump, as written. Is it dumb? I think so. Is it correct? Yes. At least until it gets some errata.What you're saying there is only 'correct' if you choose to read the Acrobatics Skill with a complete disconnect between the body of the text and the the 'Actions' section.
What you're saying is if you don't take it as written. The acrobatics skill actually says a lot of things it can be used for but never actually explains when or how. In 3.5 both Tumble and Jump were used as part of a move action, but this was removed in Pathfinder. It is now noted as being part of any other action, or a nonspecific reaction.
The body of the text clearly states, 'No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round.'
So what's your maximum movement for the round? Can you define this, please? Is it your speed, your fly speed, burrow speed, double-move speed, run speed, run speed with the charge feat, your buffed speed; do enhancement bonuses such as a monk's movement count? Please cite your rule source while you're at it.
If you choose to interpret that as meaning you can make a series of jumps up the your maximum running speed whilst using free actions off-turn to speak, then that's your call, I guess... but the intent is pretty clear, and I think adding a half page of text to the 'actions' section just to list every possible type of action which allows movement which jumping can be part of, as well as seperately list all the various possible actions which the other functions of Acrobatics could be used during, just to ward off potential abuse is pretty much the definition of 'rules bloat'. IMHO... YMMV...
What you call Rules Bloat I call writing decent rules. See, 3.5 notes that it is not an action of itself, but it is used as part of another move action. That means if you're not taking a move-action, you aren't jumping - period.
I was a ruleset that can easily stand-alone; where anyone who can read english can find the answer. They already squashed Balance, Jump, and Tumble all into one skill. Noting which could be used with what actions wouldn't have even taken up the pagepace that the headers for Jump and Tumble would have taken up.
For example, something like this.
Action
None. Acrobatics used to jump or move through a threatened square is done as part of a move-action. If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump. Acrobatics checks made to balance on narrow or unstable surfaces, or to reduce falling damage, are made in reaction to those conditions or circumstances (even if it is not your turn).
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And by the rest are you saying if there is a slight rise in the ground that you can no longer charge, as that is no longer a straight line? That the presence of a curb blocks all charging?It's fine suggesting I'm wrong, but without something to back it up, it seems spiteful.
If by slight you mean high enough that you have to move into the 5' square above you then absolutley. If fact, I would say that is an obstacle.
If by slight you mean high enough that you have to move into the 5' square above you then absolutley. If fact, I would say that is an obstacle.
And by the rest are you saying if there is a slight rise in the ground that you can no longer charge, as that is no longer a straight line? That the presence of a curb blocks all charging?It's fine suggesting I'm wrong, but without something to back it up, it seems spiteful.
This.
All charging must be in a STRAIGHT line.
Bouncing 5' into the air and coming down is not a straight line.
Those weren't charges coming over the wall. They were horses doing double moves and warriors executing standard actions to attack with Vital Strikes or held actions. The charges occured over level ground without obstructions.
So, even if you can jump the obstacle, it has taken you out of a STRAIGHT path, and you don't have a charge.
==Aelryinth
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So what's your maximum movement for the round? Can you define this, please?
It's been defined several times up-thread, but just in case you missed it: it's the amount you can move based on the action you take.
That means if you're not taking a move-action, you aren't jumping - period.
Which is why the Pathfinder rules for jumping are one of the many improvements the system made over 3.5. Now you can jump any time you move... which only makes sense if you think about it. You can jump as part of a charge, whilst running, as a 5ft step, as part of a spring attack... none of which 3.5 allowed you to do, which was just weird. In your 3.5 version, for example, you can't jump at the end of a sprint (a run full-round action)... 'cos, you know, that sort of thing is impossible... ;)
All charging must be in a STRAIGHT line.
You'd think if they wanted it to say straight line they would have put that in the charge rules.
Doesn't the word directly imply a straight line. What other path can you take that is not a striaght line. No wormwholes because then that would be like dimension door and then you would have to end your turn after unless you have some feats.
Are kangaroos and rabbits incapable of charging?Oh yes... :)
That link was awesomely appropriate.
Doesn't the word directly imply a straight line. What other path can you take that is not a striaght line. No wormwholes because then that would be like dimension door and then you would have to end your turn after unless you have some feats.
No one is saying you can't jump because then you aren't traveling in a direct line, people are arguing that you can't jump because you have to travel in a straight line. It's clearly more direct to jump over a pit, then fall into it, if your goal is to reach someone on the other side.
Doesn't the word directly imply a straight line. What other path can you take that is not a striaght line. No wormwholes because then that would be like dimension door and then you would have to end your turn after unless you have some feats.Is a falcon diving to strike a running rabbit with a single devastating blow something other than a charge attack? How about underwater charges towards a moving target, how much deviation in the path is one allowed? If the planet is a sphereoid, and you have a very large amount of movement, can you charge a 1 mile distance on a flat plain, or over the surface of the ocean?
Then you would take the shortest path without going into any square of difficult terrain.
I am pretty sure you ignore the curvature of game world you are on otherwise things start to make little sense.
Didn't we just have this argument a few weeks ago?
Throwing my 2c in again, since the argument most compelling to me seems to have been left out here. It is a question of what order things happen in.
My argument is this:
(1) In order to charge you must have an unobstructed line between yourself and the target.
(1a) Unobstructed is taken to mean that no line between yourself and the target contains anything which would slow YOUR movement as it exists at this moment. For example, if you can fly, then you can ignore that pit. If you are ethereal, you can ignore that wall.
(2) At the moment you determine an unobstructed line, you have not yet begun to charge. This determination is made to see whether or not you CAN charge.
(3) A jump check is made as part of another action; it is not an action in and of itself.
(4) If there is a line between yourself and the target which contains an obstacle which you could ignore via acrobatics, you do not ignore that obstacle until you have made the check, even if it is trivially easy to pass.
(5) By (3): You cannot make the check demanded by (4) until you have begun your charge action.
(6) By (1): You cannot begin a charge action until you have successfully ignored the obstacle with the check demanded by (4).
(7) By (5) and (6): You cannot charge.
Edited to remove an unnecessarily inflammatory comment.
So what's your maximum movement for the round?Movement in Combat: Generally, you can move your speed in a round and still do something (take a move action and a standard action).
If you do nothing but move (that is, if you use both of your actions in a round to move your speed), you can move double your speed.
If you spend the entire round running, you can move quadruple your speed (or three times your speed in heavy armor). If you do something that requires a full round, you can only take a 5-foot step.
So what's your Maximum movement?
So what's your Maximum movement?So what's your maximum movement for the round?Movement in Combat: Generally, you can move your speed in a round and still do something (take a move action and a standard action).
If you do nothing but move (that is, if you use both of your actions in a round to move your speed), you can move double your speed.
If you spend the entire round running, you can move quadruple your speed (or three times your speed in heavy armor). If you do something that requires a full round, you can only take a 5-foot step.
Your maximum movement is however much an action would typically allow you to move. If you are jumping during a double move, then you can move twice your move speed. If you are jumping during a run, then you can move four times your move speed. If you are jumping during a single move, then it would be your move speed.
You cannot jump during a 5-foot-step, as you can only jump during actions, and a 5-foot-step is not an action.
If you are making a jump check while talking, then your maximum movement is nothing at all, since the action of talking includes no movement.
Notice that there is a difference between "MOVEMENT" (a defined and limited term with in-game meaning) and "MOVING" (a more open term) and that jumping is limited by movement, not moving. Teleport allows you to move, but it is not movement. So too dimension door. So the fact that the wizard can cast teleport and plop himself down miles away does not mean that he can jump that distance.
In other words, your maximum movement for a round is situationally redefined every round and with each action you take. At the start of a round, your maximum movement is theoretically 3, 4, or 5 X your move speed (depending on armor, encumbrance, and feats).
Once you take a standard or move action to do something other than move, your maximum movement drops to your move speed.
If you take a full-round action, your maximum movement drops to effectively 0. Although you can 5' step, that is non-jumpable movement. You have no movement left.
In other words, your maximum movement for a round is situationally redefined every round and with each action you take. At the start of a round, your maximum movement is theoretically 3, 4, or 5 X your move speed (depending on armor, encumbrance, and feats).
Once you take a standard or move action to do something other than move, your maximum movement drops to your move speed.
If you take a full-round action, your maximum movement drops to effectively 0. Although you can 5' step, that is non-jumpable movement. You have no movement left.
Fascinating. I've never seen anything that defines maximum movement as any of this. Can you please provide some rule citations for your assertions? That would be helpful.
I'd allow it with a feat chain that includes a top made out of rubber and a bottom made out of springs.
I'd allow it with a feat chain that includes a top made out of rubber and a bottom made out of springs.
Heheh. It'd be fun stuff. Could even give him a quirk such as...afraid of heights. :P
"N-no b-but tiggers can't climb down! Our..uhh...tails get stuck in the way!"
It seems people dont want to read so I will post his again.
Obstacles: Like difficult terrain, obstacles can hamper movement. If an obstacle hampers movement but doesn't completely block it, each obstructed square or obstacle between squares counts as 2 squares of movement. You must pay this cost to cross the obstacle, in addition to the cost to move into the square on the other side. If you don't have sufficient movement to cross the obstacle and move into the square on the other side, you can't cross it. Some obstacles may also require a skill check to cross.
On the other hand, some obstacles block movement entirely. A character can't move through a blocking obstacle.
It seems obstacles such as pits hamper movement instead of block it entirely.
In such cases they count as two squares of movement. That would reduce the total movement a creature has-->slowing the creature.
Now let us go back to the charging rules.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. [b]If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement[b/], or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
It says if the line drawn between your starting space and your ending space contains a square that slows movement you can't charge.
We know.
1. There is a pit which is an obstacle.
2. We know obstacles take up 2 squares for the purposes of movement, reducing your movement in the round. That is slowing you down.
3. We know this pit is in the line that goes from point A to point B.
4. We know that if any square this line passes though contains something that could slow you down you can't charge so even if you could jump the pit, the fact that it counts as two squares and slows you down means you can charge.
I am really failing to see how this is an issue. The fact that an obstacle is there at all should have stopped this argument a long time ago.
It even states that obstacles can be overcome with certain skill checks, like acrobatics. Hence a pit can be jumped over, but it counts as slowed movement, and as per the rules of a charge, blocks the direct path.
I saw a game once where a tiger was charging at a PC, but the PC had a held action and cast Grease under the tiger. The GM ruled that -- without stopping the charge -- the tiger leaped out of the grease and ended up pouncing on the poor PC.That might have been "cool" to the GM, but it seemed kind of dickish to me...
Assuming the tiger made it's reflex save I see no problem here. If the GM just ruled arbitrarily that the tiger was unaffected by the spell, then I have a problem.
It even states that obstacles can be overcome with certain skill checks, like acrobatics. Hence a pit can be jumped over, but it counts as slowed movement, and as per the rules of a charge, blocks the direct path.
I think that is why the charge rules were trying to keep it simple when they said an obstacles stops the charge.
I agree that obstacles should stop a charge, if an obstacle is only an obstacle if it can not be overcome then there is no point bringing up the rule in the first place is there ?
As to the iconic charge on horse back jumping across obstacles, in my opinion it is still very doable, it will just not be a charge in game terms.
Let the poor melee run up and hit stuff already. Who wants to spend their first round saying? "I move" and then wait 10 minutes to do something else?
Let the poor melee run up and hit stuff already. Who wants to spend their first round saying? "I move" and then wait 10 minutes to do something else?
The melee isn't so poor.. if the melee took the time to not optimize it's damage potential to the roof it could make a perfectly suitable maneuverable fighter dealing plenty of damage. If you make your melee to be a master of DPR you will probably have to pay for it in other areas.
Ok, so what you're saying is that your "maximum" movement changes constantly? That sounds highly contrived in terms of keeping stuff strait at the table. My biggest beef with this interpretation is the idea of maximum being applied to speed, because there is theoretically no maximum speed. Maximum HP would be the highest value for HD + Con modifier, and the maximum could rise with other effects (like Toughness). However, with speed, there is no maximum speed. In virtually every situation you describe you are just choosing to move in different ways.
I'm pretty much sold that 3.5 did it better in this respect.
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Ok, so what you're saying is that your "maximum" movement changes constantly? That sounds highly contrived in terms of keeping stuff strait at the table...
I'm not sure I understand the problem? It's exactly the same as the distance you can normally move: by definition it can't be any more or less contrived than, you know, just having your character move in the normal course of play.
No one is saying you can't jump because then you aren't traveling in a direct line, people are arguing that you can't jump because you have to travel in a straight line.
I think the more important wording is "directly toward the designated opponent". Jumping over something might be moving directly towards your opponent (if your opponent is higher than you, say) or it might not be (if your opponent is at the same height or less than you).
I think the more important wording is "directly toward the designated opponent". Jumping over something might be moving directly towards your opponent (if your opponent is higher than you, say) or it might not be (if your opponent is at the same height or less than you).
This doesn't make sense. Why does the elevation of my opponent mater if I jump in an arc?
For purposes of the battle map, jumping doesn't deviate from the direct line you are following. For purposes of OCD rules interpretation, jump does however deviate from a straight line, which is ok, cause they never say straight.
Regarding the initial question.
I think the problem with jumping during the charge is that you lose momentum (that you need for a charge) after a jump. Think about horses, think about our Olympic long/high jumpers. :) They don't keep going, they've lost momentum during the jump.
Kargaroos, that's their form of travel and if you think about it, walking or running are mini jumps. But neither kills our momentum. If a kangaroo did a large jump over a fence, it would kill it's momentum.
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Actually I was arguing for being able to jump during a charge cause it makes sense, it just happens that the rules agree with me. Your interpretation doesn't make sense, though the rules also agree with you.Hey, no worries. You wanted to argue RAW, and we found that according to RAW you're entirely right. You can jump during a charge, or anything else even. You can jump and full-attack with your sword. That makes pretty good sense I guess, since I can probably jump a good 10 feet or so and end my jump swinging my sword like crazy (maybe even swing my sword around while I'm jumping). I would probably get pretty tired, but I'm not a D&D character who lives in a fantasy world either.
In my own games, I'd probably say Jump is part of a move action - like it used to be - and acrobatics can be used in reaction to falling to reduce damage (like tumble used to be). But hey, we're talking about Pathfinder. I've also qued this up for a FAQ, or at least errata. My god it needs some errata something fierce (especially since the FAQ is neither entirely accurate nor RAW).
I still don't think that you should be able to just make an acrobatics check as part of a charge because that negates Charge's limitations except when you're trying to jump through a wall or something. Likewise, we have Acrobatic Charge (a class feature) for using Acrobatics to avoid obstacles and terrain during a charge.
The rules for jumping imply that it is part of your movement, but they never say it explicitly, you are right, but at least we have this:
No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round.
so jumping movement isn't unlimited.
An barring some specific skill, you can't move off turn, so no jumping around when you speak off turn.
I think the more important wording is "directly toward the designated opponent". Jumping over something might be moving directly towards your opponent (if your opponent is higher than you, say) or it might not be (if your opponent is at the same height or less than you).
This doesn't make sense. Why does the elevation of my opponent mater if I jump in an arc?
For purposes of the battle map, jumping doesn't deviate from the direct line you are following. For purposes of OCD rules interpretation, jump does however deviate from a straight line, which is ok, cause they never say straight.
Well someone could say getting a running start is not a direct path as it has a sharp turn in how you are traveling and not smooth. Without a running start this would not happen. as you change direction in the middle which is not direct. You are taking a direct parobla jumping without the running start though you need a check of at least 20 to get the minimum distance.
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All charging must be in a STRAIGHT line.
Bouncing 5' into the air and coming down is not a straight line.
Those weren't charges coming over the wall. They were horses doing double moves and warriors executing standard actions to attack with Vital Strikes or held actions. The charges occured over level ground without obstructions.
So, even if you can jump the obstacle, it has taken you out of a STRAIGHT path, and you don't have a charge.
==Aelryinth
AFAIk, charging downhill was very rarely done and was a very dangerous maneuver. If the slope was moderate it was easier to charge going uphill.
The action "charge" in the game and what is a "charge" in a film or reality are very different.
A game "charge" allow you to use your mount momentum to increase your damage. It require you to do some very specific thing and jumping around isn't one of them.
Looking a Hollywood film and saying "but they are going over a wall, so it is possible to charge jumping over a wall" is worth nothing.
They aren't combat trained riders doing a charge, they are stuntmen doing a film.
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You'd think if they wanted it to say straight line they would have put that in the charge rules.
All charging must be in a STRAIGHT line.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
So what is a direct route? A S?
For charging on foot charge I would define a direct path to be a route such that a striaght line along a planar approximation of the ground towards the enemy without passing through difficult terrain. The planar approximation of the ground is the battlegrid. This way curbs and other things do not block charging or the top of a hill or even raingutters.
For flying the rules seem you would have to charge in a striaght line or approximately a straight line to deal with curvature of the planet you are on.