When Daidian Ruel founded the Hellknights in 4576, he chose the Legions of Hell as the prefect model of order and discipline.
– Pathfinder #48 “What Lies In The Dust”, page 63
The question is why? Are the slavish devils inherently more "lawful" then the robotic axiomites or the dutiful archons?
If this is true, why is it so?
If it is not true, why would have Daidian Ruel believed it to be so? Why do the Hellknights continue to believe it to be so?
If this is true, why is it so?
-He couldn't get the robot dance down?
-No one had any idea what a mechanus knight was supposed to be
-Mechanus(tm) Knight was already trademarked by a numerian security company.
-A request was made for the name to the Mechanus Beauracracy, which MIGHT get the answer back in time for Aroden to hear it.
-The devil made him do it.
It's not true, that was just Daidian Ruel's opinion. And the current Hellknights are too traditional to change to the Axis model.
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Devils are the embodiment of order and discipline without a shred of mercy.
Asmodeus won't hesitate to use draconian punishments for those whose discipline is lacking.
I guess that's why hell's brand (heh heh heh) of order and discipline works best for mortals (at least mortals of certain inclinations): LG is compromising order and discipline for pansy stuff like mercy, and while LN might be the most orderly in theory, that mostly applies to LN outsiders, who are made out of absolute order. If you apply the same "inherent kind of order" to humans, it just won't work. They just won't be perfectly lawful and disciplined "because that's what you do", they need that stick (more than the stupid carrot) to keep them in line.
+1 What is the most likely to strike fear into the heart´s of those who would spread evil and chaos? That´s why it´s Hellknights. NOBODY thinks Hell is some nice place, it´s about scaring the $%@#! out of you. If you´re a good, law-abiding citizen then you have nothing to fear. If Hellknights were based on some image of the Heavenly Hordes of LG-ness, that is just one more opening to manipulate the system... ask anybody who adventures with a Paladin.
Carry on...
It's kind of like the warhammer 40k Inquisitor dogma:
"There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt."
"Blessed is the mind too small for doubt."
Actually you can take just about any imperial 40k quote and apply it to Hellknights -- it works really well.
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Officially:
I have no idea. I would suspect not. They're known for being well disciplined, but how well they are in comparison to the other L aligned Outsiders out there is difficult to define. Much of the Hellknights is left up to the interpretation of the gaming group. That's how it should be.
In my games:
No. They are not. Did Daidain believe they were? Probably. Either that or he was deluded into thinking so. He wouldn't be the first human to be tricked by Hell's influences into thinking that he could emulate their ways and remain above their influence.
Honestly though, without calling up his spirit for a chit-chat, it's impossible to know.
To be frank, however, at my table, The Hellknights are a group that is slowly falling into darkness, despite the best efforts of those amongst them with noble intentions, because the truth is that Hell is inherently corruptive. To even emulate their ways is to invite their corruption into your heart.
But TBH The Hellknights are more interesting to me as an example of how the pride of human beings can lead them into great hubris and utterly blind them to the simple truth that they're dancing to the tune of the ultimate manipulators in the cosmos all along, than as an order of Judge Dreddish antiheroes. Every time a Hellknight emulates the ways of the pit's denizens whilst claiming to be above their corruptive influence, the Archdukes of Hell smile.
Of course you are.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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quasi-IC LE explaination.
LE is the most pure order because it has a rational component and the power to maintain order.
Lawful Good can find order tempted by mercy. The thief finds mercy becasue he was 'stealing bread for his children' he is rewarded for breaking the law by mercy. Mercy obscures law.
Lawful Neutral holds a mindless adherence to the law. If the person is able to twist the law to his ends, he is able to avoid it. 'Pure Law' is the most suceptable to chaos. In this example if our bread stealing thief is able to 'prove' his innocence through trickery, "Where is the evidence I took the bread? My children have full bellies, but can the law prove it is the stolen bread that filled them?" Then the Law finds him innocent and he goes free.
Only Lawful Evil has pure law. Mercy does not stay his hand, the flaws in the pure law are compensated for by ensuring Justice is held. The lawbreaker is punished, for if he were truly innocent, why would he fear the law?
Or to steal from Star Trek.
LG - Innocent until proven guilty.
LN - Innocence is irrelevent, extenuating circumstances are irrelevent, only the facts matter.
LE - You are guilty unless you prove your innocence. Trying the innocent would be a waste of time, so you must be guilty.
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+1 to WH40K quotations. They are lovely for the purpose of characterizing Hellknights.
I feel the choice of Hell was something of a natural one. Axis and Archon approaches to Law can be just as absolute, but the Founder needed a furnace to burn away the weaknesses of men. Facing down Lawful Evil Hell means facing off against your worst nature. Evil often is characterized as 'proactive', as well, while Neutrality is generally 'inactive' and good is 'reactive'. That 'proactive' approach is a useful element when trying to build knightly-orders-of-social-reform-military-police.
Of course, it doesn't always work nicely. All that trucking-with-hell has led to some rather self-serving (LE) Hellknight Orders along with the more well-meaning LG Orders. Remember, the difference between extreme LG and LE is primarily "for whom is Law most beneficial, everyone or me?" Someone of any of the Lawful alignments may be absolute and uncompromising, but their interpretation of Law, Order, Codes of Conduct and Oaths will generally either slant toward the greater good of all or the greater good of me me me.
I mean, shoot: if Asmodeus wasn't determined to rule everything, would he be an evil God? He's a reasonable guy, perhaps the most reasonable guy of all, he just thinks that he deserves to win. Imagine Hell where Asmodeus is LN. "Absolute Order here. I feel fine." Hell under LG Asomodeus: "Law and Order adjusted daily for the greatest efficiency and comfort of all." No no no, Hell is a perfect hierarchy because Asmodeus HUNGERS. And he likes it when his subordinates share that hunger, because it drives them on.
The Hellknights are a group that is slowly falling into darkness,
Well, looking at them as A group is going to skew one´s perspective alot.
Looking at Hellknights as a name applicable to MULTIPLE groups changes the perspective alot.Just like Cavaliers is a name applicable to many, varied, groups,
or ´Armored Men with Swords´ is a name applicable to many, varied groups.
The Hellknights are a group that is slowly falling into darkness,Well, looking at them as A group is going to skew one´s perspective alot.
Looking at Hellknights as a name applicable to MULTIPLE groups changes the perspective alot.
Just like Cavaliers is a name applicable to many, varied, groups,
or ´Armored Men with Swords´ is a name applicable to many, varied groups.
Certainly, as I said, it's a home game thing. In the canon setting, they're a considerably more mixed lot than I tend to portray them as.
That said, as Golarion is huge, it's probably not fair of me to say that they're that homogenous even in my own home games. My players usually don't play In Cheliax, so they're unlikely to meet a full range of Hellknights so much as encounter one or two orders at the most.
So who knows.
Sure, I was more just high-lighting that issue in general, apart from your take on it.
I get the feeling that in canon Golarion, the Hellknights as a whole probably were alot more Good,
and the ´descent into Evil´ HAS taken grip over time, although not completely or anything,
and some Orders are alot more prone to that than others...
But that can be said of Chelaxian society in general...
It seems like the Hellknights were founded before the Asmodean/Devil pacts became a big thing in Cheliax,
so it seems fair to say that they originally weren´t all that mixed up in that...
But Devils and the like love to work thru lawful means, so will tend to influence any lawful organization period.
Sure, I was more just high-lighting that issue in general, apart from your take on it.
I get the feeling that in canon Golarion, the Hellknights as a whole probably were alot more Good,
and the ´descent into Evil´ HAS taken grip over time, although not completely or anything,
and some Orders are alot more prone to that than others...
But that can be said of Chelaxian society in general...
It seems like the Hellknights were founded before the Asmodean/Devil pacts became a big thing in Cheliax,
so it seems fair to say that they originally weren´t all that mixed up in that...
But Devils and the like love to work thru lawful means, so will tend to influence any lawful organization period.
Yea, that's pretty much inline with how I play them.
Darkness oft starts with the noblest of intentions.
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When Daidian Ruel founded the Hellknights in 4576, he chose the Legions of Hell as the prefect model of order and discipline.
– Pathfinder #48 “What Lies In The Dust”, page 63The question is why? Are the slavish devils inherently more "lawful" then the robotic axiomites or the dutiful archons?
If this is true, why is it so?
If it is not true, why would have Daidian Ruel believed it to be so? Why do the Hellknights continue to believe it to be so?
Inherently more lawful, absolutely not. Inevitables and the other lawful neutral outsiders are epitomes of lawful concepts. At best, devils are equal to them. Another interpretation might see the law-chaos/good-evil system as a circle, with the neutral alignments at extremes, thus making "lawful evil" less pure lawful or pure evil. (That's AN interpretation, this sort of thing doesn't have to be writ, so whatever works for your game).
What devils have that inevitables and their brethren often (not always, but often) lack is passion. The archetype of a crusading angel comes easily to mind. By the same token, the idea of the reverse, a hellish dark knight, is easily summoned up. The crusader for law for law's sake... comes less easily - Judge Dread, Javert come to mind, but there's not a super strong icon or visual element there.
Add to that the influences and artistry Ruel was likely exposed to. This man wasn't a scholar of the planes, he was a soldier and nearly a life-long Aroden worshiper. The conflict between good and evil (and the extolling of a middle path - or a goodly path as benefits a society) would likely be heavily represented in the church's artistry. So would the conflict between law and chaos, but I could see an argument that it's harder to attach recognizable and sympathetic faces/images to this battle so it would likely be represented by more identifiable combatants, like the knights of the land vs barbarians and monsters. So faced with images of armies of angels vs armies of devils, there's a point of inspiration there.
The other inspirational point is that the threat of harm and menace is a powerful motivating factor. It's the same technique utilized my numerous religions: do what we tell you or monsters will punish you horribly (and likely forever). It's a far, far more persuasive technique than: do what we tell you because we asked nice, or do what we tell you because it furthers all of our goals. If we're talking purely costume, I think I'd be more likely to follow the command of a soldier dressed as a devil than a soldier dressed as a robot or bug.
On top of all of this is the perspective of a soldier trying to prepare his knights. For purposes of training, if you're trying to make the baddest ass soldier what there is, do you send them to Heaven, Axis, or Hell? Lets say you send one soldier to all three planes for a year and all three come out, and then you make them fight, which do you think is going to win?
Finally, I don't think I'd say Axis has an army. The forces of inevitables, formorians, and their ilk don't really run like that. An inevitable army is like a machine, formorians are like swarms, axiomites... I'm not even sure what that's like (how does the Matrix attack you?). Anyway, they're all super organized and effective, but they're a step away from the human experience. And even if you think of the best armies in real world human history, you're probably more likely to think of crusaders or hellish legions or something even more disorganized than an organization that functions like a machine.
In the end, the Hellknights aren't about furthering the agenda of order on a multiversal level, they're (largely) about getting humans to obey society's strictures for their own good. To do that, they use motivating factors effective against humans, rigidity, mercilessness, fear. Additionally, they are trying to shape deadly warriors embodying such elements, but who are also inured to the emotions, fears, and weaknesses typical members of a society possess. Thus, taking their cues from universally dreaded lawful beings (and doing battle with such creatures) serves their goals more effectively than trying to model themselves after more philosophical ideals (who they wouldn't want to fight).
Also - worth noting again - scary knights aren't just effective, they're cool.
Is funny, at the founding they had no devil influence at all. That came later as Daidian Ruel questioned devils summoned to find out about the stat of his son's soul. It was only after that he started to work in some of the hell's legions stuff. But the order was around well before that.
The civil ar had much to do with darkening of the order, unsanctioned hell night order's and even order's on different sides(so to speak) The Orders not as uniform as it once was.
And each order is more or less it's own thing, some are indeed drifting more toward evil. The Road to hell and all that...
As to why he added Hell, I think he saw something he could use in the disciple and unyielding order without mercy. It is hard to tell now what can from Hell and what came from the Jistka.
Also - worth noting again - scary knights aren't just effective, they're cool.
It might also be worth noting, (which I did not do when I start this discussion.) is that the "Heaven Knights" - who we call Paladins - had failed to put down the "Order of Grace."
– Pathfinder #28 “The Infernal Syndrome”, page 65
Also - worth noting again - scary knights aren't just effective, they're cool.It might also be worth noting, (which I did not do when I start this discussion.) is that the "Heaven Knights" - who we call Paladins - had failed to put down the "Order of Grace."
– Pathfinder #28 “The Infernal Syndrome”, page 65
Whoa. Got me inspired to go look. Here's, some relevant links.
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One think that I find interesting about Golarion is that Paizo's take on Asmodeus seems to stress the Lawful portion of his alignment even a bit more than the Evil.
Asmodeus certainly wants everyone to think that...
A purely LE society would be composed of people who use the law as a bludgeon to get one's own way, and to encourage selfishness, and use laws to justify their own advancement-at-the-expense-of-others. Backstabbing and machinations and 'klingon rites of advancement' would be the norm in a LE culture, and, to the ruler of such a culture, whether that be Asmodeus or a cleric of Asmodeus, being at the head of a treacherous backstabbing pyramid people of people who can't wait to find a legal justification to push you over and take your place seems counter-productive.
If I were the LE overlord, I'd totally encourage my followers to serve the cause of law and *not* be selfish treacherous jerks waiting for a chance to stab me in the back...
A purely LE society would be composed of people who use the law as a bludgeon to get one's own way, and to encourage selfishness, and use laws to justify their own advancement-at-the-expense-of-others.
Not necessarily. No alignment has only one interpretation. That is true for LE as much as any other alignment. The "Follow law out of selfishness" is one interpretation, but not the only one. The "Follow the law totally, without mercy, and enforce it to the full extent it allows", is another.
The "Follow the law totally, without mercy, and enforce it to the full extent it allows", is another.Follow the law without mercy (or selfishness) is pretty much LN, not LE.
That depends on what the law is. If the law is you must drink the blood of 50 orphans you slaughter yourself a LN person can't do that without crossing over the line. If the law is a complicated tax code that says you can deduct your dog than to a LN person you can deduct your dog as a dependent.
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I don't think I'd say that Asmodeus is presented as more Lawful than Evil. I would say that his church pushes that perspective.
Asmodeus's schtick is a synergy of Law and Evil, rather perfectly melded to the extent wherein his interpretation of Law cannot help but lead to evil. That's the primary way in which his influence is inherently corruptive.
He teaches that his Law is the most effective form thereof, whilst leaving out that the application of the laws he holds sacred is inevitably vile and wicked.
He ensnares Lawful types by drawing them into a byzantine moral quandary where Law and Evil are so inextricably entwined that they cannot help but end up entangled and seduced and warped into his ways.
It's really quite brilliant.