So here it goes
I'm DMing Skinsaw Murders and we're slowly approaching the soul crushing end encounter. From the boards, i've known for a while that Xanesha is the utlimate TPK machine but hadn't really paid too much attention to her stats. This week I was preparing for the last part of the adventure and it hit me like a ton of brick. I hadn't notice that the stats in the book didn't include all of her buffs!
I know that this is a sure TPK for my players. We have the perfect classic party (well a barbarian instead of a fighter but the rest is wizard, cleric and rogue) but they're far from optimized. We're from the AD&D 2nd edition and only really started playing d20 in the last year or so.
So with all this in mind, I need to tone down Xanesha. We don't mind if PCs die but there's no way they can win this. Impossible encounters are no fun. I've gone through the boards and the two main suggestions were to do the sister swap and make sure their 7th level. I don't like the sister swap cause i think it takes away from the encounter coolness. Xanesha works better as the flying killing machine from the shadow clock and her sister fits better with the whole boat of fun angle. The 7th level thing i don't mind but even then i don't think it would help too too much.
My biggest problem is the AC. Even James Jacob commented in one of the anniversary thread that her AC was about a CR18 AC. There's no way that my PCs can win with an AC of 33-34 along with the mirror images. To top it off she has SR so i don't see how my players could even hit her. I thought about switching some of her spells. Maybe taking away shield and/or mage armor. Removing any little bonus from items might be a good idea too.
Any other idea on how to make her a real challenge but not a sure death? Keep in mind that I still want to keep the spirit of the encounther.
Thanks!
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I would definitely drop both her shield and her mage armor. I might also suggest that you get rid of the silence, and replace those missing spells with more mind control - stuff like command or hold person. It fits her snakey, manipulative approach to the world anyway, and would probably be more thematic.
James Jacobs has talked about giving her a "sorcererectomy" in the anniversary edition. Keep in mind that all lamia matriarchs are spellcasters to begin with, and she still has her mask either way.
The stacking of mage armor and shield takes things to ridiculous levels. I'd do away with them for Shisumo's suggestions above. The fight will still be tough, but it will be winnable.
But I wouldn't be afraid of a TPK, so long as you dont let it derail your game. Take a look at GreycloakofBowness' campaign journal. He's turned a TPK into having his PCs be wisdom-drained galley slaves on her sister's gambling boat. It's really impressive GMing.
In short, have a contingency plan in case things turn south. Its fights like these that you shouldnt be ashamed to pull your punches.
But I wouldn't be afraid of a TPK, so long as you dont let it derail your game. Take a look at GreycloakofBowness' campaign journal. He's turned a TPK into having his PCs be wisdom-drained galley slaves on her sister's gambling boat. It's really impressive GMing.
I can live with a TPK as long as i don't get a 99% TPK outcome. Like i previously mentioned, i'm comfortable with PCs dying but having no fighting chance isn't something fun.
Thanks for the suggestions guys BTW. At this point, doing a spell switcharoo looks like the easiest thing to do. Do you think that switching the spells will be good enough to make this a good fight for a 6th level party? ..i'm just wondering if i still should make sure they're level 7 when they get to the clocktower?
Thanks
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I'd guess that a vanilla Lamia Matriarch would be pretty dangerous for most groups assuming she gets her spells running.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/lamia -matriarch
At will—charm monster (DC 19), ventriloquism (DC 16)
3/day—deep slumber (DC 18), dream, major image (DC 18), mirror image, suggestion (DC 18)
Spells Known (CL 6th; concentration +11)
3rd (4/day)—haste
2nd (6/day)—death knell (DC 17), invisibility
1st (8/day)—cure light wounds, divine favor, mage armor, magic missile
0 (at will)—dancing lights, daze (DC 13), detect magic, ghost sound (DC 13), mage hand, mending, prestidigitation
Once she hears the bell (a certainty), she casts:
mage armor (6 hours)
mirror image (12 minutes/casting, 3/day)
When she hears the fight with the faceless stalkers, she casts:
invisibility (6 minutes)
Divine favour (1 minute) (+2/+2)
She uses silent image to draw some attacks (expect big spells to be cast) at nothing and to gauge the party's strength,
When the silent image is discovered, she casts:
Haste (6 rounds) and moves somewhere close to the PCs with a +24? stealth (away from the meat shield and near an archer or caster maybe)
She starts with AC26 (7th level fighter might be +14/+9 to hit), 3-6 figments of herself, invisible
She has a full attack routine of:
18/18/13/8 for 1d8+10/19-20x3 plus 1 wisdom drained, aura of despair
But probably better to power attack for:
14 (+4 and flat footed for attack 1)/14/9/4 for 1d8+22/19-20x3 and totally destroy that light-armoured enemy (or two)
Alternately, switch her out with her sister Lucrezia from Hook Mountain. They're the same nominal CR, but Lucrezia has rogue levels, and is generally more manageable for the party at the end of Skinsaw.
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Alternately, switch her out with her sister Lucrezia from Hook Mountain. They're the same nominal CR, but Lucrezia has rogue levels, and is generally more manageable for the party at the end of Skinsaw.
Lucretia has shield and mage armour so her AC gets up to an almost impossible AC 33 plus those mirror images for when a hit does miraculously sneak through but her damage per round is probably less. She could be manageable but it'll be a seriously tough fight and I'd want to have a plan B.
Greycloak, with your description of the basic Lamia Matriarch i wonder if there's a point to retooling her since it might be a TPK anyway :)
Revan, as i mentioned in the original post... I don't want to do the sister swap. I feel that their class builds thematically fits better their respective adventures.
I like Shisumo idea for the spell swap...
On another note, has anybody used her deep slumber/charm monster/suggestion spells? I haven't seen it mentioned in the boards. Being able to fly and cast those spells (some at will) seems like a pretty good way to screw up a party to me...
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My suggestion would be to have her toy with the PCs. She is aware of her power level, and can show a bit of arrogance.
Remember that not every encounter is meant to to end in death. Use the opportunity to provide some exposition. Have he monologue a little, or if you feel comfortable enough, engage in dialogue with the PCs. Drop the hints about "the Master", offer a place at her side, or better yet, the possibility of a place at HIS side!
I would consider making her so cocky that she might wade in to melee combat and try to hit them with combat maneuvers, absorbing the AoOs and "toying" with them. Then, if they manage to land a solid hit, have her freak out, maybe "stone" one of them and use that distraction to jaunt out of there with her DD.
I would then give them XP for defeating her, but keep her around as a benchmark. They will have seen how how easily she was beating on them, then when they meet up with her again later, they can see how they have improved and she has not. (Immortal characters generally do not gain XP as fast, and neither should NPCs.)
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Just how I would have done it if I had a chance to reboot it myself.
My suggestion would be to have her toy with the PCs. She is aware of her power level, and can show a bit of arrogance.
Remember that not every encounter is meant to to end in death. Use the opportunity to provide some exposition. Have he monologue a little, or if you feel comfortable enough, engage in dialogue with the PCs. Drop the hints about "the Master", offer a place at her side, or better yet, the possibility of a place at HIS side!
I would consider making her so cocky that she might wade in to melee combat and try to hit them with combat maneuvers, absorbing the AoOs and "toying" with them. Then, if they manage to land a solid hit, have her freak out, maybe "stone" one of them and use that distraction to jaunt out of there with her DD.
I would then give them XP for defeating her, but keep her around as a benchmark. They will have seen how how easily she was beating on them, then when they meet up with her again later, they can see how they have improved and she has not. (Immortal characters generally do not gain XP as fast, and neither should NPCs.)
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Just how I would have done it if I had a chance to reboot it myself.
When my wife ran Skinsaw Murders, she did not realize that she had to tone down Xanesha, despite our party having performed some clever detective work and reaching Xanesha at fifth level.
Once Xanesha almost pulped the party wizard--whose Scorching Ray was our only attack that could reliably hit her--my wife switched to making Xanesha realize that the party was harmless. She had foolishly wasted her Faceless Stalker minions delaying a group of nobodies. She started charming the party as replacement minions. The wizard saved against her at-will Charm Monster and successfully bluffed that he was charmed. (Xanesha was untrained in Sense Motive and the wizard had a level of bard.) My character was the last one standing, made his save, ran away, and successfully hid. The wizard secretly sent a message to him about Xanesha's next planned sacrifice and my character recruited appropriately strong help for their next encounter.
Thus, even when Xanesha is overpowered, it is possible to avoid a Total Party Kill.
Xanesha dimension-doored to escape her defeat at the second encounter.
Months later real-time I retired my character and took over as GM. I wanted a filler adventure between Hook Mountain Massacre and Fortress of the Stone Giants, so I had Xanesha in disguise hire the party on what she hoped would be a suicide mission. She mistakenly thought the party was at the power level of their previous encounter. Afterwards, she realized that the party was strong enough to threaten her boss, so if she gave them a little secret aid then maybe they could create a power vacuum in which she could take control. The party is very much into information gathering and advance planning, so it is convenient having an excuse to plant information where they can find it. It was also amusing to watch their reaction to having financial backing from the mysterious Lady Baythorne who they knew was evil but assumed was on their side. (They asked the gods, who said that Baythorne was no threat to them.) Two sessions ago, they figured out Baythorne's true identity and are trying to reconcile their two views of her--worst enemy and best NPC ally. Whether they take their revenge or keep her as a double agent, it will be an exciting story.
All this required that my wife and I convert Xanesha from the Chaotic Evil "Kill My Enemies!" attitude to the Neutral Evil "There are no friends or enemies, there are only useful and useless tools." This fits the setup in Skinsaw Murders well. Xanesha was cautiously hidden behind two layers of fall guys: first the Skinsaw cultists and second Justice Ironbriar. This caution is more Neutral Evil than Chaotic Evil.
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I took off a few of the Sorc levels, and changed around the spells prepped, but left everything else alone. I swapped Bull Str for Rage (still get the +2 Att/Dmg, but also a -2 AC). Didnt cast Shield til after her Mirror Images were gone. I think what hurt her the most out of it was not being able to cast D Door and the Heightened Spells (Scorching Ray, CLW). Then again, my part were at lvl 6, with 6 of them, w 20pt buy.
Probably dropping all of her Sorc levels is a good idea. If you just swap some of the buffs for ones that arent as advantageous, and maybe dont place Silence as perfectly as possible (if you even use it), she will likely be much more managable.
OH, also, maybe dont use the staff's special power or the Medusa Mask unless she is losing badly.
I fiddled with her stats a bit today and managed to get two different versions. I'd very much like people's opinion on them before I choose which I'll use.
Oh, by the way, both versions are already fully buffed (see spell list).
The first version is just her as a Lamia Matriarch. Changed a few spells and feats to fit her gear and tactics.
Female Lamia Matriarch
CE Large Monstrous Humanoid (Shapechanger)
Init +5; Senses Darkvision (60 feet), Low-Light Vision; Perception +12
DEFENSE
AC 29, touch 17, flat-footed 23 (+4 shield, +5 Dex, -1 size, +8 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 156 (12d10+36+12 false life)
Fort +8 (+2 poison), Ref +15, Will +12
Immune mind-affecting; SR 19
OFFENSE
Spd 70 ft., Climbing (70 feet), Swimming (70 feet)
Melee Impaler of Thorns +16/+16/+11/+6 (1d8+20+1 Wis drain/19-20/x3) Power attack mode
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Wisdom Drain (DC 21)
Spell-Like Abilities Charm Monster (At will), Deep Slumber (3/day), Dream (3/day), Major Image (3/day), Mirror Image (3/day), Suggestion (3/day), Ventriloquism (At will)
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 6, +14 melee touch, +18 ranged touch):
3 (4/day - 1 cast) Haste (DC 18)
2 (6/day – 2 cast) Silence (DC 17), Invisibility (DC 17)
1 (8/day – 2 cast) Divine Favor (DC 16), Magic Missile, Shield (DC 16), Cure Light Wounds (DC 16)
0 (at will) Acid Splash, Daze (DC 15), Read Magic (DC 15), Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound (DC 15), Detect Magic, Prestidigitation (DC 15)
Spells already cast: False Life (Sihedron Medallion), Divine Favor, Shield, Mirror Image, Haste
STATISTICS
Str 20, Dex 21, Con 17, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 21
Base Atk +12; CMB +18; CMD 36 (can't be Tripped)
Feats Extend Spell, Improved Critical: Spear, Power Attack -4/+8, Silent Spell, Weapon Focus: Spear
Skills Acrobatics +9, Bluff +21, Climb +18, Diplomacy +11, Disguise +11, Fly +3, Intimidate +20, Knowledge (Arcana) +16, Knowledge (Local) +16, Perception +12, Spellcraft +16, Stealth +1, Swim +13, Use Magic Device +21 Modifiers Acrobatics (Jump) +4
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Thassilonian, Varisian
SQ Change Shape (fixed Medium humanoid form, alter self) (Su)
Combat Gear Impaler of Thorns, Medusa Mask, Sihedron Medallion, Snakeskin Tunic; Other Gear Ring of Protection, +1
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Wisdom Drain (DC 21) (Su) A lamia matriarch drains 1d4 points of Wisdom each time she hits with her melee touch attack. The first time each round that she strikes a foe with a melee weapon, she also drains 1 point of Wisdom. A DC 21 Will save negates the Wisdom drain.
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The second version is Mrs.X with no class level, but with the Advanced template. That's when her AC goes through the roof, despite the absence of mage armor + shield combo. It's a CR 9, though with her gear it could reach way more.
Female Lamia Matriarch (Advanced)
CE Large Monstrous Humanoid (Shapechanger)
Init +7; Senses Darkvision (60 feet), Low-Light Vision; Perception +20
DEFENSE
AC 33, touch 19, flat-footed 25 (+4 shield, +7 Dex, -1 size, +10 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 172 (12d10+60+12 false life), Mirror Images: 1d4+2
Fort +10 (+2 poison), Ref +17, Will +14
Immune mind-affecting; SR 19
OFFENSE
Spd 70 ft., Climbing (70 feet), Swimming (70 feet)
Melee Impaler of Thorns +22/+22/+17/+12 (1d8+11+1 Wis drain/19-20/x3) Power Attack
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Wisdom Drain (DC 23)
Spell-Like Abilities Charm Monster (At will), Deep Slumber (3/day), Dream (3/day), Major Image (3/day), Mirror Image (3/day – 1 cast), Suggestion (3/day), Ventriloquism (At will)
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 6, +20 melee touch, +20 ranged touch):
3 (5/day – 1 cast) Haste
2 (7/day – 2 cast) Silence (DC 19), Invisibility
1 (8/day – 2 cast) Divine Favor, Magic Missile, Shield, Cure Light Wounds
0 (at will) Acid Splash, Daze (DC 17), Read Magic, Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound (DC 17), Detect Magic, Prestidigitation (DC 17)
Spells already cast Mirror Image, Haste, Shield, Divine Favor, Silence, Invisibility
STATISTICS
Str 24, Dex 25, Con 21, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 25
Base Atk +12; CMB +20; CMD 40 (can't be Tripped)
Feats Extend Spell, Improved Critical: Spear, Power Attack, Silent Spell, Weapon Focus: Spear
Skills Acrobatics +11, Bluff +23, Climb +20, Diplomacy +13, Disguise +13, Fly +5, Intimidate +22, Knowledge (Arcana) +17, Knowledge (Local) +17, Perception +20, Spellcraft +17, Stealth +10, Survival +10, Swim +15, Use Magic Device +23 Modifiers Acrobatics (Jump) +4
Languages Abyssal, Aklo, Common, Draconic, Thassilonian, Varisian
SQ Change Shape (fixed Medium humanoid form, alter self) (Su)
Combat Gear Impaler of Thorns, Sihedron Medallion, Snakeskin Tunic, Medusa Mask;
Other Gear Ring of Protection, +1
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Wisdom Drain (DC 23) (Su) A lamia matriarch drains 1d4 points of Wisdom each time she hits with her melee touch attack. The first time each round that she strikes a foe with a melee weapon, she also drains 1 point of Wisdom. A DC 21 Will save negates the Wisdom drain.
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What do you think?
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I think you shorted her divine favour by +1/+1
With haste (+1 to hit), divine favour (+2/+2), +1 weapon, 20/24 str, and +12 BAB, her attack routine should be:
(20 str version) +21/+21/+16/+11 for 1d8+10+1 wis/19-20x3
same w/ p. Attk. +17/+17/+12/+7 for 1d8+22+1 wis/19-20x3
(24 str version) +23/+23/+18/+13 for 1d8+12+1 wis/19-20x3
same w/ p. Attk. +19/+19/+14/+9 for 1d8+24+1 wis/19-20x3
The trouble for the PCs is in the Power Attack version of either one of those Xaneshas combined with AC~30 (rogues etc. need something close to a 20 to hit) and a handful of mirror images and a number of them debuffed because of the staff's despair effect.
Unless Xanesha doesn't act like the killer melee behemoth she is, she's almost assured to hit twice against the heaviest armoured guy on any team for about 50 damage/round - troubling indeed for the strongest 6th level meat shield. The lighter armoured folk are assured to be hit thrice per round for 70-something and killed outright and if I were Xanesha, I would become visible right next to a bunch of the squishier folk.
When I realized this fact, I added a function to the Impaler of Thorns that it does nonlethal damage and she still double-killed my whole party (i.e. did double their HP in damage - once as non-lethal, once as lethal after nonlethal=total HPs).
She just about whupped my party a second time were it not for a lucky dispel magic that took out her haste and a couple of consecutive critical hits when my group met her again instead of Lucretia in HMM. As it was, it was a draw - she knocked down half the party and she was down to a third of her HPs so she Dimension Doored out of there to fight another day.
Thanks Greycloak for the input. Actually, the Divine Favor is counted, but I was under the impression that her spear wasn't +1 (which seemed weird when I read it, since it has magical powers).
Or if it's magical, it wasn't taken into account into her full attack routine in The Skinsaw Murders: Bab +13, str 22: +6, Weapon focus: +1 = +20 for her highest attack (unbuffed).
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Thanks Greycloak for the input. Actually, the Divine Favor is counted, but I was under the impression that her spear wasn't +1 (which seemed weird when I read it, since it has magical powers).
Or if it's magical, it wasn't taken into account into her full attack routine in The Skinsaw Murders: Bab +13, str 22: +6, Weapon focus: +1 = +20 for her highest attack (unbuffed).
It actually doesn't say that it has a magical "plus" but by rules, it should be at least a +1.
The wizard saved against her at-will Charm Monster and successfully bluffed that he was charmed. (Xanesha was untrained in Sense Motive and the wizard had a level of bard.)
FYI, by RAW a spellcaster automatically knows whether the victim of one of their single-target spells has made their save or not.
Though in this case I think the way it was played probably was more fun.
The wizard saved against her at-will Charm Monster and successfully bluffed that he was charmed. (Xanesha was untrained in Sense Motive and the wizard had a level of bard.)FYI, by RAW a spellcaster automatically knows whether the victim of one of their single-target spells has made their save or not.
Though in this case I think the way it was played probably was more fun.
In that case, Xanesha knew it was impossible that her Charm Monster succeeded when the wizard made his save. The penalty for Bluffing an impossible lie is -20. The bonus for Bluffing a lie the target wants to believe is +5. That combines to -15. That is still possible on an opposed Bluff check. I know the wizard rolled well. I don't know Xanesha's opposed Sense Motive roll.
For other GMs wanting to have Xanesha charming the party instead of killing them as a backup plan to avoid TPK, the rules still allow a character to snap out of Charm Monster based on Xanesha's actions against him or her, and Xanesha would not automatically notice that character coming to his or her senses. If Xanesha throws a temper tantrum and threatens that character, as lamia are prone to do, it could free the charmed character and he or she would get a Bluff check without penalty.
As it was, my wife had to roleplay Xanesha persuading the charmed party members into helping with her plan to sacrifice the mayor: "I want to kill the mayor of Magnimar. No, this is not an evil sacrifice, despite what Ironbriar's lies said about me. The mayor is a greedy politician driving the city into ruin. It would be a heroic service to kill him. You, the fighter and the cleric of Gorum, you understand about the glory of killing bad guys. You, the wizard, you grew up in Magnimar and know the mayor is corrupt."
The players running the fighter and cleric had great fun trying to foil Xanesha's plan while still roleplaying their characters as charmed. "Hey, we have the mayor here, let's cut off his head. You want to do a ritual first? We don't have time for that, I'm hitting him now. WHACK! Aw, only 8 damage. What do you mean, wait until you finish?"
We're finally going to start part 5 of skinsaw next session. Due to time and life, looks like the PCs will be level 6. I'm not done with my retooling but i've taken a lot of your suggestions. Here's what i have for now:
Ability Scores: I downgraded her ability scores to those of a normal lamia matriarch. This effectively makes a small all around dent in her power level. Lower HP, AC, Damage and Spell DCs.
Shield/Mage Armor: I'm swapping one of those (probably shield) for an enchantment spell as Shisumo suggested.
Mirror Image: I was reluctant to touch this one since it's a base ability for Lamia Matriarchs but in end i really think it must go. There's a reason this is an arcane spell with a range of personal. Having a mirror image (4-8 images) on the hasted, high AC, melee mistress of you-die-now is just plain cruel. By looking at the probabilities, one PC would probably be dead before she gets hit once. I'm thinking of switching it with Blur. It's the same basic idea but way less effective.
Ring of protection: I'm dropping this one. It's a cheap boring treasure and she doesn't need more things to boost her AC.
Medusa's Mask: In a 4 PC party, I feel this could potentially be a save v.s TPK. I'm thinking of changing the flesh to stone ability's duration to be something like concentration + 1 round. It makes the item somewhat interesting and will still give the party a scare if somebody fails the save.
I've yet to go over the feats. I'm concerned with Power Attack (as Greycloak mentioned) so i'll probably trade that one for something else.
All in all, right now we're looking at an AC around 27 with HPs in the lower 100s.
Too little, too much or just right? Any suggestion will greatly be appreciated as always. Thanks.
We're finally going to start part 5 of skinsaw next session. Due to time and life, looks like the PCs will be level 6. I'm not done with my retooling but i've taken a lot of your suggestions. Here's what i have for now:
--SNIP--
Too little, too much or just right? Any suggestion will greatly be appreciated as always. Thanks.
I think that sounds pretty good.
I'm taking her in a very different direction, as my RotRL game is actually a mashup of RotRL and the WoTC 3.5 hardcover "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft." I'm running "Burnt Offerings" and "Skinsaw Murders," then EtCR instead of "Hook Mountain Massacre" and "Lair of the Stone Giants." I'm then returning to RotRL with "Sins of the Saviors" and "Xin-Shalast."
So, in my re-tooled version, Xanesha is a human vampire sorceress, who's a servant of Count Strahd from Castle Ravenloft (who is, himself, under Karzoug's influence, but doesn't realize it).
Plot-wise, there's another lesser runewell in the crypts of Castle Ravenloft that Strahd found five years ago. He was the one that awoke Karzoug and set the plot into motion. Karzoug is influencing the vampire, making him greedy for more power, intending for Strahd to act, then take that power for himself.
Specific to Skinsaw Murders, Xanesha is playing exactly the same role, except that she's bringing the fungus back to Strahd so that he can build an undead army to take over Varisia. It will be an army of undead, rather than stone giants, that attack Sandpoint later on.
I'll post her stats here when I've finalized them.
Well James Jacob just killed off this thread :)
He's posted the preview of Xanesha from the anniversary edition
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/adventurePa th/runelords/riseOfTheRunelordsHardcoverStealthPreview
It's very different but works in different ways. I like it and will go that route instead (I'll trust paizo's judgement over mine on this one)
Well James Jacob just killed off this thread :)
He's posted the preview of Xanesha from the anniversary edition
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/adventurePa th/runelords/riseOfTheRunelordsHardcoverStealthPreview
It's very different but works in different ways. I like it and will go that route instead (I'll trust paizo's judgement over mine on this one)
If your player's are still in trouble you can always have them make Perception checks to notice a crack one of the main wooden struts supporting the roof... My players crushed her to death by taking out the roof beams...easier than hitting her! and it avoided a TPK.