Welcome to the Ricktatorship, kids.
Season 3 is gonna be all Michone and prison-time. Can't wait.
Thoughts and ruminations on the season finale:
- I love it when they either flashback to times before or just at the onset of the zombie plague outbreak. They didn't go quite that far back this time, but the helicopter buzzing Atlanta and how that started a migration of walkers into the countryside was equally as cool. Even moreso how they showed the press of zombie bodies literally breaking through the farm's fence, giving us a plausible reason for why they recently arrived to respond to Shane and Carl's gunshots.
- The barn torching sequence was awesome. Jimmy's death felt a little...meh. Are there no locks on RV doors? C'mon. That'd be the first thing you'd want to secure if you're going to drive out into a swarm of zombies. Of course, Jimmy never struck me as the brightest hand on the farm.
- It was cool to see the ammo finally run low. And the gasoline once they left the farm. Food will be next. The survivors basically had to leave everything behind on short notice. It's no wonder some of them are starting to panic. With a horde that large just a few miles away, I'd be pretty concerned, too.
- Andrea is finally coming into her own. I love how they've transformed her character. Somewhat weak and naive initially. Didn't even know how to handle a gun. And even wanted to take her own life at one point. Now, she's fighting for survival with every ounce of energy in her. And she accounted for plenty of zombie deaths all on her own.
- Michonne! Finally. I wondered if they'd introduce her with the same entourage depicted in the comics, and I'm really glad they did. Dragging along two armless, jawless zombies in chains gives some great insight into her character. The katana doesn't hurt either.
- Lori's reaction to Rick's admission of killing Shane was cool. To me, she was reacting to two different things. She was able to process Shane's death up until the point where Rick admitted he wanted it to end that way...i.e., that he just wanted it to be over. For her part, she'd been trying to patch things up in a more workable way with Shane, even after making sure to warn Rick about his motives. But, regardless, I think the more powerful element to her negative reaction towards Rick was the result of him sharing that Carl put Shane down when he rose again as a zombie. Over the course of the entire show, she's had a growing unease with the development of Carl's impressionable young mind. And, if Rick's sunk to a place where he's relieved to have killed Shane, just because he was tired of dealing with him...and that he's okay with Carl shooting the only other man he ever looked up to as a father-figure (i.e., Shane), Lori's pretty much beside herself with how to hold her world together. Or, how to keep her son untouched by the world around them. The fact of the matter is, she can't. She just hasn't come to grips with that yet.
- I like how Carl is starting to develop, too. He's not one to be sidelined behind his mother's skirt...or to ignore the world around him. He's soaking in everything from all the adults in his life. And, in the end, that's what's going to help him cope with the new world in which he'll live when he becomes an adult, too. To me, that's why we see him slipping away from the farmhouse and getting into trouble. Much like all children, he's starting to exert some of his own independence. But his curiosity and current stupidity are also his greatest risks. Regardless, his character will go through a transformation, too. Much like Andrea, he'll come to terms with the world around him. But it'll be through all the trail-and-error experiences he has along the way.
- It's interesting to see Herschel diminish in terms of his leadership capacity, deferring more and more to Rick, whom he rightly believes knows best how to defend the group and help everyone survive. He's more of a follower when he's out of his element.
- I like how the characters of Daryl and Carol continue to be entertwined. That relationship comes across more and more like the Tyrese/Carol pairing in the comics. I never really saw T-Dog as the Tyrese character from the books. So, I'm kind of curious if the writers for the show have swapped out the role of Tyrese for Daryl. If so, that means he and Carol may eventually develop some kind of odd romantic twist. And, if they stay true to the comics from that point forward, it would also mean Michonne could attract Daryl's interest, too.
- Now I can't wait for Season 3... :-D
My two cents,
--Neil
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Rick's speech about his leadership skills really broke my suspension of disbelief. I have a hard time coming up with a single instance of Rick leading the group in any meaningful way. Let's list the ways he is full of fail:
1. Leaves behind angry racist. Goes back to find angry racist. Angry racist is gone.
2. Leaves guns behind in city. Returns to get guns. Half of guns stolen.
3. Loses Sophia. Spends a stupid amount of time trying to find her. She is already dead.
4. Negotiates with Hershel. Can't close the deal, can't control Shane, hell breaks loose.
5. Saves Randall. Tries to leave Randall behind. Instead, he fights with Shane. Takes Randall back. Decides to kill Randall. Can't go through with killing Randall.
6. Fails to deal with the Shane problem. Attracts zombie horde while failing.
7. Refuses to make any decisions 90% of the time. The small handful of decisions he makes, he either goes back on immediately or fails to implement.
8. When he finally does make an important decision (kill Shane), he can't even communicate the decision or its necessity to the group, and manages to frame it as a cowardly act of ego ("he wahs challengin' MEH!") and then go off on a tirade about how it's not a democarcy. Here's a hint, you moron, they never wanted it to be a democracy. They wanted you to lead them and help them (lord knows why), and all you ever do is try to get them all killed by choosing (or not making a choice regarding) the stupidist option available.
I really like this show when the characters aren't talking. I don't buy that there's any depth or thought behind Lori's actions - the writers simply put her in conflict with Rick for the sake of conflict.
|
|
What's up with the chained up zombies? Do those serve a purpose beyond making samuari sword person seem extremely badass?
In the comics I believe (and forgive me 'cause it's been quite a while since I read them) she kept them around because the stench of the rotting chained zombies behind her covered up her own smell. So she could travel near other walkers relatively unmolested.
I agree that T-Dog's character needs some major work. There was at least one episode this season where he didn't have a single on-screen appearance. What's the point of being a character on TV if you don't make it on camera? Had he gone down in the horde that invaded the farm, I wouldn't have cared.
Lori doesn't seem to have a real good grasp of the personalities of the people around her. Her talk with Shane, presumably an attempt to mend fences, was just the thing to give a controlling, manipulative man that glimmer of hope to say "maybe she does want me after all...I just need to get rid of Rick." With the way she reacted to Rick's confession of what happened to Shane, maybe he wasn't all that incorrect in his assessment.
As for not knowing the prison's location, I can swallow that. I've lived here for years, not knowing exactly why there were so many registered sex offenders living in a relatively small city, until I learned we're basically surrounded by prisons. They get released and all end up here. Even now, I know the prisons are there, but I couldn't tell you exactly where they are. Unless Herschel's done time there, he has no reason to think about it. Most people avoid prisons and have a mental aversion to them. As for the cops, police rarely visit prisons. They're more likely to know the locations of courthouses, since they have more reason to visit them. Convicted criminals aren't always housed in the nearest prison either.
What's up with the chained up zombies? Do those serve a purpose beyond making samuari sword person seem extremely badass?In the comics I believe (and forgive me 'cause it's been quite a while since I read them) she kept them around because the stench of the rotting chained zombies behind her covered up her own smell. So she could travel near other walkers relatively unmolested.
^That's right.
Why doesn't the party go on a road-trip? Well, I'm thinking food and gas are major problems. One of the party is preggers, too. That's not condition that is conducive to travel. To borrow from Ned Stark, winter is coming... The list goes on for why they need a defensible place to call home.
Why don't they know where the prison is - do you think they know where every prison installation is in the state of Georgia? Heck, Rick and Shane were Kentucky cops, I thought.
|
|
As for not knowing the prison's location, I can swallow that. I've lived here for years, not knowing exactly why there were so many registered sex offenders living in a relatively small city, until I learned we're basically surrounded by prisons. They get released and all end up here. Even now, I know the prisons are there, but I couldn't tell you exactly where they are. Unless Herschel's done time there, he has no reason to think about it. Most people avoid prisons and have a mental aversion to them. As for the cops, police rarely visit prisons. They're more likely to know the locations of courthouses, since they have more reason to visit them. Convicted criminals aren't always housed in the nearest prison either.
I agree with you and I believe they've traveled for quite some distance too. In the comics, it's several montage pages of traveling during the winter as they're looking for a new place to stay. In the series, they don't really say how far they are from Hershel's farmhouse. It *looks* like it's the next evening, but even if we assume they've traveled nearly a full tank of gas for the cars (minus what was used up zooming around in the zombie fight) that could be quite a ways away.
And though I could tell you the prisons around Virginia Beach, if I were to travel even a hundred miles west towards Richmond, I'd have no clue where the prisons are. Same down in the Atlanta/Georgia area where they are.
Some rebuttal/counterpoint for cibet44:
...we finally got off the static farm and we're headed for a static prison? Ugh. They really need a road season where we can see what is happening in the rest of the country.
I sincerely doubt the first inclination of a group of people in a zombie apocalypse is to start traveling the rest of the country just to see what's happening. The characters would be far more concerned with a) defending themselves against zombies, looters, and lawbreakers, and b) acquiring and retaining the necessary resources to do exactly those things. You don't achieve either of those goals be expending your resources to drive and battle your way across the country. No matter how much you (as the reader/viewer of this story) would like insight into all those things, in my opinion, it's far more realistic to portray things exactly as the writers have.
I've seen enough of Georgia. This is my biggest disappointment with the show, from season one I thought the series would revolve around traveling throughout the country looking for temporary safe havens and dealing with people and zombies along they way. Maybe the comics do what the show does, but I did not expect it to stay in one location for entire seasons at a time. Very disappointing. I beg the writers to not spend all of season 3 in the prison, please.
The TV series is following the storyline of the comics pretty successfully so far. So, it sounds like you had some pretty unrealistic expectations from the get-go.
They still need to pair down the cast. No way should Herschel have survived the attack on his farm....Again, I never read the comics, but this whole farm business was a big mistake and I wonder if this is what caused Darabount to be fired....
In the after-show, the director mentioned they'd originally intended for Herschel to die while defending his farm. They'd already notified the actor that his character would be killed off in the next script. Then, as they wrote that scene, the writers felt it came across as a meaningless death and they still had more they could accomplish with his character over the course of the next season. In fact, Herschel lasts for quite a bit in the comics. So, I'm glad they kept him alive. He represents a certain kind of archetype among all the other characters that no one else can fill. He was basically the "denier"...i.e., the one who refused to believe just how messed up the world had become and thought he could hunker down and ignore it. The rest of the survivors almost bought into that mindset, too, by thinking the farm would be a safe place to settle and wait through Lori's pregnancy. So, they needed to spend enough time at the farm to show the fallacy of that belief. The season finale put the capper on it. And now, we get to see how Herschel adapts to the new world he's been pulled into...
Are we done with Randall's group of “rapists”? We spent 3 or 4 episodes hearing about how they were going to find the farm and kill everyone on it but they never showed. So now what? I guess we just forget about them and head off to the prison?
::evil laughter:: Oh, you couldn't be more wrong, my friend. Season 3 is about to get very, very dark in a hurry.
It looks like that massive prison was about 2 miles from the farm yet no one in the group knew about it or saw it this entire time? How? Rick AND Shane were both COPS for Petes sake!
You really need to read the comics. Or, at least Google the Walking Dead and read a few synopses from the comic's storyline. Rick and Shane were cops in Kentucky. Not Georgia. Shane was traveling with Lori and Carl, because Lori had relatives in Atlanta. Once Rick woke from his coma and talked with Morgan, he put the pieces together and realized that's probably where his family had fled. So, he mounted up on horseback and rode from Kentucky to Georgia.
Your sense of distance also seems confused. First, the group fled the farm and met back up at the highway...which we already know was several miles from the farm itself. Then, they all agreed to keep moving together. We have no idea the exact distance they drove before Rick's SUV started running out of gas. Let's assume it was a mostly full tank before the zombies arrived at the farm. To go through an entire gas guzzlilng tank in an SUV that big would take quite sometime. So, they're not just 2 miles from the farm.
Lori still alive and still pregnant is bad news. This is going to be an anchor around the shows neck. She can’t die when she is pregnant so we know her character is in no danger, so she completely lacks any gravitas. She is just scenery that will spend all her (significant) screen time losing track of Carl until she realizes he is missing then becoming hysterical about it. She told Rick he had to get rid of Shane because he was dangerous, then when he does it (in self defense no less) she gets mad at him. Great.
I couldn't disagree more. Lori's character serves a very distinct purpose. For awhile now, she's been Rick's rock. She accepted and helped him integrate into the group, even though Shane had been their leader (and her lover) up until then. She's backed his every decision, even when it wasn't always easy or popular. Along with many of the other ladies, they've been doing their part to support the more routine operations of keeping their group going...i.e., the cooking, washing, etc. Those aren't the glamorous aspects of group survival in a zombie apocalypse. But they're realistic and necessary.
In the meantime, the greatest contribution of Lori's character to the overall story is that she's trying look after Carl and make sure he isn't traumatized or negatively impacted by the world in which he's growing up. That's why she became angry with Rick over Shane's death. It's partly anger at herself for her own mistakes in being with Shane and putting him and Rick at odds with one another. But it's mostly anger at Rick for allowing Carl to be a party to Shane's death (even if just as part of a zombie killing), because she's deluded herself into thinking she can keep Carl safe and "normal" in this world. Rick's easy acceptance of both intentionally killing Shane and Carl's participation in putting Shane down again when turned into a zombie has laid bare an aspect of Rick that she can't support. And that's going to pay dividends, storywise, over the course of next season and beyond. All of these characters go through their own, unique transformations as a result of these experiences they're accumulating. Lori is destined to go through the wringer before this is over.
I know casting and having children in any show is a risk but the kid playing Carl is not quite up to the task. They need to figure out a way to get this kid off screen until he is old enough to have an older actor take the part.
Posh! He's doing fine. He's a kid. He acts like a kid. But he's about to do a lot of growing up. You're just navigating through the early parts of the story to establish a starting point from which you can measure a tremendous difference by the time he reaches the end of his maturation process. And the actor playing Carl will be undergoing his own transformation as he grows older season by season. Be patient.
Daryl needs something to do. It seems we are treading water with his character in anticipation of something...
I'm with you here, but maybe not as impatient about it. The Daryl character is completely new to the story. He isn't in the comic series. I'm starting to suspect that the writers chose to bump the Tyrese character (who is in the comics) by developing Daryl into that role instead. The character proved surprisingly popular enough that the writers chose to keep him around. Originally, I think T-Dog was supposed to represent Tyrese (who is also African-American), but Tyrese had a daughter and was traveling with her and her boyfriend when they joined the group. So, T-Dog is already far different than the Tyrese character in the comics.
As for Daryl, I really like how he's developed over the course of the story. He's a survivor, make no doubt. He could probably go it alone if he had to, but he's stuck by Rick and done alright so far. I also suspect the writers are starting to weave in a romance between him and Carol. After all, Daryl's the only one who tirelessly searched for Sophia. He went out of his way to bring a Cherokee rose to Carol to cheer her up and offer her hope. And, even though he's yelled at her and tried to push her away since Sophia's death, he came back to rescue her when the farm was overrun. For her part, Carol too is attracted to Daryl. It hasn't blossomed into love yet. But he's far better than the poor excuse of a husband who beat her all the time. She's timid and weak. Daryl is brash and strong. She grows concerned when he distances himself from the group. They're mutually supporting characters at this point. So, I expect their storylines to continue to be entertwined. Even moreso if (or when?) his brother Merle makes another appearance. I half-expect we'll learn Merle has joined up with the Governor at some point.
It looks like the group is heavy on the “tough guys” now (Rick's in his new state, Andrea for whatever reason is now an uber-killer, plus we seem to be adding hooded man/woman to the group) so where does this leave Daryl? Move along with his story or have him die his heroic death already.
Nooooo! Daryl has so much more to give. And, again, if he's meant to fulfill the Tyrese role, he's got a lot more play within the story to carry out. As for the Michonne arrival, she pretty much replaces Shane as an effective fighter for the group. And, Andrea is right on pace for her character development. In the comics, she was always the best shot of the group. I like how the TV series started her out as a terrible shootist, but she's being forged into something stronger. If this show stays the course, she's going to become a major sustaining character. She's in it for the long haul. Same for Michonne, too.
The T-Bone or T-Dog character, whatever the guys name is, is another problem.
I fully expect T-Dog to become another "main" character who gets killed off...probably in Season 3. Not everyone in the group is destined to be unkillable. And, you also can't just kill off all the weaker characters (in terms of character development) right away either. That's why there are still folks around like T-Dog and Herschel and his other daughter...or Patricia and Jimmy who died when the farm was overrun. These characters serve their purpose, but only at the appropriate time to help move the story forward.
Why didn’t they just all pile into the Hyundai when the suburban broke down?
I wondered the same thing. I didn't do the math, so I'm not sure if they all could have fit in such a small car. Rick pointed out that they couldn't all make it in the car.
Why do all the zombies still have shoes on? I understand why they still have clothes on, no one wants to see otherwise, but surely at least half of them (especially the women zombies) would have lost their shoes by now, no?
Who cares? Relax a little. :-D
|
|
The Daryl character is completely new to the story. He isn't in the comic series. I'm starting to suspect that the writers chose to bump the Tyrese character (who is in the comics) by developing Daryl into that role instead.
Interesting. I had always assumed that we'd see Morgan and his son Duane (from episode 1) return in the role of Tyrese and his daughter.
You may be right though. They may be using Daryl to fill that role. Shrug. We'll see.
|
On Talking Dead one of the writers was asked if Merle, Morgan, and Duane would be coming back. He answered that 1 of them would. It has already been confirmed (I believe) that Merle has been signed on for season 3 and that he had to lose a bunch of weight for the role. I am guessing that he will be held prisoner by the governor (or mayor?).
|
|
On Talking Dead one of the writers was asked if Merle, Morgan, and Duane would be coming back. He answered that 1 of them would. It has already been confirmed (I believe) that Merle has been signed on for season 3 and that he had to lose a bunch of weight for the role. I am guessing that he will be held prisoner by the governor (or mayor?).
Ah! Good to know. I haven't been watching the Talking Deads so didn't know that.
And of those 3, I would definitely bank on it being Merle coming back. He's just too cool of a character as far as camp conflict goes.
Additionally...
I also expect Morgan and Duane to show up in Season 4 or maybe Season 5 if the series lasts that long.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
I love the flashbacks, and wish we could see more. I particularly liked the flashback with Lori and Shane up on a ridge over Atlanta watching as the city is napalmed. It showed how well and truly f+%+ed the survivors are, given that the government response had moved from "let's stop this" to "let's kill every damn thing and hope we get them all."
The wave of zombies that started as a result of the helicopter was also pretty darn cool.
And there’s that pregnancy again. A cliché story telling device leading to a boring 10 episodes at the ranch. Great. Thanks writers! I promised I wouldn’t do this but did Lori get pregnant in the comics? I’m guessing she did not.
Yes, she also got pregnant in the comics. Her storyline is fairly compelling. And, like many characters, she has tragic flaws to her. Flaws which you find annoying in how the writers/actress have portrayed her on-screen. For fans of the comic, though, her portrayal has been pretty sharp to this point. As a parent, I can relate to some of her behavior where it concerns Carl. And, as a rambunctious/adventurous 9-year old, I identify a lot with Carl's efforts to slip out of his mother's overprotective-ness. The fact that Lori loses track of him so much isn't to say she's not very good at keeping up with him. It's as much a testament to Carl's ability to slip away...another trait that plays out over the course of his character development in the storyline. Carl becomes a true survivor despite his mother's efforts to shield him from a world gone bad.
...[T-Dog's]...filling a demographic role and has been largely sidelined for the whole show. They’ll give him a contrived arc that will lead to more exposure, not less. Like I said before though, they’ve waited so long to get to it that it won’t seem genuine.
That demographic is about to be filled by Michonne and eventually Morgan (when he returns). I suspect they will give T-Dog more exposure at somet point, but it'll be the episode where they focus just enough on him so his death comes across as more impactful when the zombies snatch him away.
... the writers have almost salvaged Rick to the point where I can root for him. Every character needs flaws, and Rick has his share, but after the last few episodes I’m starting to like him a bit more....
Rick is the one character who undergoes the most transformations during the whole storyline (at least so far). He has many more life-changing moments to come. It'll be interesting to see how you view his journey via the TV series.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
And there’s that pregnancy again. A cliché story telling device leading to a boring 10 episodes at the ranch. Great. Thanks writers! I promised I wouldn’t do this but did Lori get pregnant in the comics? I’m guessing she did not.Yes, she also got pregnant in the comics. Her storyline is fairly compelling. And, like many characters, she has tragic flaws to her. Flaws which you find annoying in how the writers/actress have portrayed her on-screen. For fans of the comic, though, her portrayal has been pretty sharp to this point. As a parent, I can relate to some of her behavior where it concerns Carl. And, as a rambunctious/adventurous 9-year old, I identify a lot with Carl's efforts to slip out of his mother's overprotective-ness. The fact that Lori loses track of him so much isn't to say she's not very good at keeping up with him. It's as much a testament to Carl's ability to slip away...another trait that plays out over the course of his character development in the storyline. Carl becomes a true survivor despite his mother's efforts to shield him from a world gone bad.
I appreciate your take on the series Neil, even if I'm not having as much fun with it (though I am having fun making fun of it).
But, I'm really not getting it from watching the characters on screen, with Lori being the biggest offender by far. I'm usually a defender of the spouse character who lives to get in the protagonist's way (Skyler White on Breaking Bad being a prime example - the character gets a ton of hate from people who see her as just a roadblock in the story of Watler White: Drug Kingpin), and I stuck up for Lorin in the first 1.5 seasons. But after she left the farm to find Rick and crashed into a zombie standing in the middle of the road, I lost it. That action was so monumentally, painfully stupid, that I hated the character from that point and have never looked back.
I'm also really sick of the "we left him/her behind and need to/don't dare go back" conversation that happens every episode. I wouldn't mind if those conversations led somewhere, or introduced character development, but they mostly just seem to eat up time. Case in point (and again, it's Lori), last night's "OMG! Carl's not in the house and I'm not leaving." If she wants to save the son she can't be bothered to watch, she should go off and save him. There's no reason for her to risk everyone else's life because she's a bad mom (particularly when it results in the deaths of others, like Hershel's third unnamed daughter).
I also threw my hands up at the whole pre-regrouping scene with Hershel, Carl, and Rick. Hershel's urging/advice to save Carl, by fleeing a situation which did not seem particularly dangerous and after waiting an amount of time that did not seem particularly long, didn't make any damn sense. Similarly, rather than actually have a conversation with his son (perhaps saying something like "It's okay, she'll come here. If not, we can go check out the new and improved farm, but let's just chill for 10 minutes and get our s!+@ together."), Rick mopes and looks despondent.
Also, if you can point out a few instances of Rick actually leading, that would make me happier too. The closest I can think of is when he got in the firefight with the dudes in the bar (only to turn around with the genius plan of "Glenn, go act as a decoy and see if you can get the car.") He has choked way, way, way too many times for me to believe that anyone would follow him.
|
|
And there’s that pregnancy again. A cliché story telling device leading to a boring 10 episodes at the ranch. Great. Thanks writers! I promised I wouldn’t do this but did Lori get pregnant in the comics? I’m guessing she did not.Yes, she also got pregnant in the comics. Her storyline is fairly compelling. And, like many characters, she has tragic flaws to her. Flaws which you find annoying in how the writers/actress have portrayed her on-screen. For fans of the comic, though, her portrayal has been pretty sharp to this point. As a parent, I can relate to some of her behavior where it concerns Carl. And, as a rambunctious/adventurous 9-year old, I identify a lot with Carl's efforts to slip out of his mother's overprotective-ness. The fact that Lori loses track of him so much isn't to say she's not very good at keeping up with him. It's as much a testament to Carl's ability to slip away...another trait that plays out over the course of his character development in the storyline. Carl becomes a true survivor despite his mother's efforts to shield him from a world gone bad.
I appreciate your take on the series Neil, even if I'm not having as much fun with it (though I am having fun making fun of it).
But, I'm really not getting it from watching the characters on screen, with Lori being the biggest offender by far. I'm usually a defender of the spouse character who lives to get in the protagonist's way (Skyler White on Breaking Bad being a prime example - the character gets a ton of hate from people who see her as just a roadblock in the story of Watler White: Drug Kingpin), and I stuck up for Lorin in the first 1.5 seasons. But after she left the farm to find Rick and crashed into a zombie standing in the middle of the road, I lost it. That action was so monumentally, painfully stupid, that I hated the character from that point and have never looked back.
I'm also really sick of the "we left him/her behind and need to/don't dare go back"...
IRL people are stupid, bad at leadership, selfish, etc... In a zombiepocolypse I would expect to see dumb decisions, mismanaged leadership, etc...
I agree that they should have had better fortifications at the farm and a bug out plan in case of an attack. Also, they need to take Carl out, find some walkers, let him shoot 30 of them, and stop worrying about him wondering off as long as he is armed. Lori's constant mothering is what caused him to hesitate to shoot the zombie that killed Dale. He isn't exposed enough.
Also, Patricia wasn't Herschel's daughter. She was Otis' wife and Herschel's neighbor.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
IRL people are stupid, bad at leadership, selfish, etc... In a zombiepocolypse I would expect to see dumb decisions, mismanaged leadership, etc...
Except I'm not interested in real life. I'm interested in fiction, which condenses the issues present in real life and makes them interesting, or has something interesting to say about them. There's no drama in watching someone make a stupid decision for the sake of creating an artificial conflict (*cough* Lori *cough*) or in watching someone not act in order to extend conflicts past the point of dramatic/logical conclusion (*cough* Rick *cough*)
Also, Patricia wasn't Herschel's daughter. She was Otis' wife and Herschel's neighbor.
Thanks - I forgot she existed. Seems like once everyone learned that Shane killed Otis through Dale's magic psychic powers, she should've had something to say.
|
|
IRL people are stupid, bad at leadership, selfish, etc... In a zombiepocolypse I would expect to see dumb decisions, mismanaged leadership, etc...Except I'm not interested in real life. I'm interested in fiction, which condenses the issues present in real life and makes them interesting, or has something interesting to say about them. There's no drama in watching someone make a stupid decision for the sake of creating an artificial conflict (*cough* Lori *cough*) or in watching someone not act in order to extend conflicts past the point of dramatic/logical conclusion (*cough* Rick *cough*)
Thanks - I forgot she existed. Seems like once everyone learned that Shane killed Otis through Dale's magic psychic powers, she should've had something to say.
Also, Patricia wasn't Herschel's daughter. She was Otis' wife and Herschel's neighbor.
But fiction tends to mimic real life. In the movie the Godfather there was all sorts of drama that came about through bad leadership, stupid decisions, and selfishness. People love that movie. I would say most fiction creates drama out of imperfections that humans have.
Rick not following through with Randall's execution was important for his character development. Will he try to live by his pre-apocolypse moral code or create a new one? The audience should see that struggle. It shouldn't be like when Anakin fell to the darkside, waltzed on over to the jedi academy, and murdered all of the children (apparently when you fall to the darkside you fall hard).
Also, Dale guessed what happened because he had a good idea about what kind of man Shane was based on previous experience (aiming the gun at Rick). When he brought up his suspicious to Shane, Shane pretty much admitted it and certainly didn't deny it. There is no evidence that the primary group every told Herschel's group once they knew (besides I think only Rick, Lori, Dale, and Andrea knew or had heard it from Dale).
I'm really not getting it from watching the characters on screen, with Lori being the biggest offender by far....after she left the farm to find Rick and crashed into a zombie standing in the middle of the road, I lost it. That action was so monumentally, painfully stupid, that I hated the character from that point and have never looked back.
Oh, believe me, I scoffed at the woman's stupidity, as well...not so much for going to find Rick (whom she feared she'd lose again...and thus that's why she went to find him herself)...but for consulting a map and not watching where she was going. Believe me, I could totally see my wife doing something like that. And I'd be yelling at her just as much as on-screen Lori. :-D
I'm also really sick of the "we left him/her behind and need to/don't dare go back" conversation that happens every episode.
I don't mind that cliche so much. It's a valid conversation to have each time around. The group keeps reaffirming their desire to stick together even as individual (and more self-serving) members question the wisdom of it. That kind of element lets you know real clearly where each character stands after each separate experience. The moment one of them shifts their position on that conversation is when you know just how far they've finally sunk in terms of enduring the entire catastrophe that's befallen the world. That's the real conflict to the Walking Dead. It's not the living vs. the dead...or even just the living vs. the living. Dale voiced the true conflict for everyone just as any good conscience would. At what point do you abandon your civilized humanity in the face of so much uncivilized hardship?
I wouldn't mind if those conversations led somewhere, or introduced character development, but they mostly just seem to eat up time. Case in point (and again, it's Lori), last night's "OMG! Carl's not in the house and I'm not leaving." If she wants to save the son she can't be bothered to watch, she should go off and save him. There's no reason for her to risk everyone else's life because she's a bad mom (particularly when it results in the deaths of others, like Hershel's third unnamed daughter).
Firstly, that wasn't Herschel's third unnamed daughter who died last night. That was Patricia, Otis' wife.
As for Lori's freak out over Carl, I think you have to lookd deeper to understand the emotional turmoil in that situation. First, they didn't know the farm was overrun with zombies. They'd spent several days in relative safety there. The fences and bog/marsh had protected them all quite well. So, in a more relaxed environment, she'd let down her guard in terms of looking after Carl every moment of the day. The paramount concern at the time was that Randall had escaped. No one figured he was a threat to the farmhouse. If anything, Randall would run to try and rejoin his friends. Shane, Rick, Daryl, and Glen had gone after him. So, still no pressing need to have Carl under veritable lock-and-key. She assumed he'd listen to her and stay in the house. No one ever told her Carl had gone off by himself into the woods where he'd encountered the walker that eventually killed Dale. So, she had no real sense of just how much Carl has been stealing away from the house. Not until that very night, at least. And, once she realized he was missing and walkers were all over the farm, the main terror that seized her was that he'd wind up like Sophia. That's what drove her to act the way she did.
I also threw my hands up at the whole pre-regrouping scene with Hershel, Carl, and Rick. Hershel's urging/advice to save Carl, by fleeing a situation which did not seem particularly dangerous and after waiting an amount of time that did not seem particularly long, didn't make any damn sense. Similarly, rather than actually have a conversation with his son (perhaps saying something like "It's okay, she'll come here. If not, we can go check out the new and improved farm, but let's just chill for 10 minutes and get our s%@! together."), Rick mopes and looks despondent.
I took that scene to indicate once again how much Rick struggles to connect with Carl and convince he's doing what's in everyone's best interests...i.e., to keep them safe. Remember, in the episode where Shane died, Rick and Carl had a conversation about death while sitting in the hayloft. In that discussion, he tried to help Carl overcome his guilt for playing a part in Dale's death. But he also told him that one day his mom would die and that he would die and Carl would need to be prepared for that. So, when faced with the very real possibility that Lori hadn't made it off the farm, I think Rick was struggling with how to tell Carl his mom was probably dead...or that, at most, they should simply stay where they were to wait and see if she made it out. Otherwise, they risked certain death in going back to look for her. So, I took that scene to be another powerful moment in Rick's struggle to connect with Carl, be a good father, while also avoiding the panic of feeling compelled to go racing back to find everyone. After all, the very instructions they left for Sophia when she went missing was to wait by the cars on the highway. That's why you get a tight shot of the message they painted on the windshield of that car with the food they'd left behind for her. And it's why Rick did exactly what he did in staying there with Herschel. He continued to have faith that they should all stick together. And that everyone who was able, would gather there on the highway. And his faith was rewarded over Herschel's (and even Carl's) when everyone did show up. That's what that scene was about.
Also, if you can point out a few instances of Rick actually leading, that would make me happier too. The closest I can think of is when he got in the firefight with the dudes in the bar (only to turn around with the genius plan of "Glenn, go act as a decoy and see if you can get the car.") He has choked way, way, way too many times for me to believe that anyone would follow him.
Here's a few:
1) Rick was the one who organized the means for escaping Atlanta with the survivors that got trapped in the office building where he first met Glenn, Andrea, T-Dog, etc. It was his idea to cover themselves in zombie fluids to hide the smell. He led the effort walk through the zombies in Atlanta's streets to locate some vehicles that could get them out and back to their camp. Everyone gave him the credit for saving them.
2) Rick was the one who was determined to go back and save Merle...as well as retrieve the guns. And he did so over the objections of almost everyone.
3) When Glenn got captured by the gang running the retirement home, Rick was the one who led Daryl and T-Dog in freeing Glenn.
4) When the campsite with the RV got overrun by zombies, Rick led the returning survivors in repelling the attack with his timely arrival and actions.
5) After they buried their dead, it was Rick who suggested they find their way to the CDC. And, when they arrived at the locked doors, it was his plea that convinced Jenner to let them in. Later, when they learned Jenner had locked them all in the facility to die with him, it was again Rick who convinced him to give them a chance to exit the facility and go on living. When Carol offered up the grenade she'd been hanging onto, it was Rick who used it to blast a hole through the bulletproof windows.
6) When Sophia was lost, it was Rick who was convinced they should organize search parties to find her. Many of the others wanted to give her up for dead.
7) When Carl was shot by Otis, it was Rick (rightly acting as a distraught father) who carried him to Herschel's farm and convinced the veterinarian to save his son.
8) When it came time to negotiate with Herschel to allow the survivors to stay there on his farm, it was Rick who convinced him to extend his hospitality and overlook Shane's worst qualities.
9) When Herschel went missing and his daughter took ill after struggling to deal with the trauma of losing their family members from the barn and recognizing them for the monsters they'd become, it was Rick who led the effort to go find him. It was again his leadership that convinced Herschel not to give up or return to alcoholism...but to keep on living for his daughters, much like Rick is trying to do for his son.
10) When the bad guys showed up and wanted to be taken to Herschel's farm, Rick took complete leadership in dealing with them, first engaging them in conversation, then in shooting them down once their true intentions became known. He further led the effort in getting them out of the saloon and back to the farm...all but saving both Glenn and Herschel when both of them were rattled/stymied by the walkers and the situation with whether to leave Randall to die or take him with them.
There are ten good leadership situations. Many of them also took on complications which forced Rick into a hard decision which I'm sure could make people question his decision-making at times. But, on the whole, Rick makes more correct calls than not...at least where it concerns perserving their humanity vs. giving into the lawlessness and depression of the world. Anytime there's even a hint of a threat involving a walker, he's at the forefront defending everyone. More than anything, that's what makes him a leader for this group.
Make no doubt though, you're going to see Rick's leadership questioned in Season 3. His little speech won't sit well with everyone. The introduction of Michonne will also play a role in how much of his leadership remains intact. To me, Rick is a very conflicted guy. He's got principles, unlike Shane and the worst of the riff-raff in the zombie apocalypse. He faces the hard decisions and he makes them. That doesn't mean he won't wrestle with whether or not it's the right one...or that he won't make a mistake now and then. I think it's very easy to sit back as a viewer and say, "I'd have handled that so much easier..." When, in fact, I think most of us would find it just as difficult as Rick to face some of those decisions...and the consequences of them...as he does. That's what this story is supposed to reflect...i.e., the conflict within him as he tries to be everyone's protector, even as everything in him screams out to just focus on protecting himself and his family.
My two cents in the usual wall-of-text form,
--Neil
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Thanks. I guess my last comment would be that I fundamentally don't agree with the whole "will we remain civilized" theme/question of the show. That question is important, but it is secondary (in my mind) where survival of the entire human race is at stake. They are in a war zone and they should be behaving appropriately for that arena. Part of that means accepting casualties, which Rick has failed to do (and thus put others at risk - if Rick had been in camp, instead of looking for Merle/guns, maybe more people would've survived the zombie attack).
I also have been less than impressed with the way he's gone about the alleged questions relating to how democracy/humanity is retained. Randall is the prime example. It wasn't that Rick was making the right or wrong decision with respect to Randall - it was that he was making one of two arbitrary decisions and doing so without any semblance of due process or truth-seeking. If democracy/humanity is important to him, he should've been questioning Randall (without torturing him). We, as the audience, never saw any evidence that Randall deserved to die (or to live for that matter), except in situations where such evidence would be highly suspect (torture and escaping with a psychopath). I was fed up with Dale because he never offered anything other than vague platitudes about humanity/democracy, without offering up concrete steps about what that means and how it is achieved (particularly with so much at stake). The only person who ever displayed reasoning was Shane, and his arguments were never challenged directly, including the argument for why this dangerous post-apocalypse world required some non-democratic/non-humanitarian actions. Civilizations revert to these levels when faced with an existential challenge - and with good reason. All the humanity/democracy in the world is worthless to the dead.
The lack of meaningful dialogue is a huge problem with Rick's dithering decisions - it's never clear what the alternative is to his ultimate conclusion, or why he reaches any conclusion. He does everything by gut, which can be entertaining, but if we're doing everything by gut, let's not waste time with arguments that are meaningless to Rick's non-verbal, largely unreasoned decision making process.
I'm just surprised Aberzombie isn't terrified that Michonne finally arrived. ;)Ah ain't scairt.
Yet.
|
What I want to know is where to get Hershel's magic shotgun of unending shots. I swear he got off a couple of dozen shots before they showed him reloading at all. lolI was thinking the same thing! :D
I'll have to go back tomorrow and actually count how many shells he fired before reloading.
Just to clear up, I did watch the farm fight scenes again and Hershel does reload. At least once when Lori and Carol are on the porch you see him in the background fire two shots and then reach in his pocket for more shells. Blame the never empty illusion on the editing.
Definitely rooting for the horde. This show would be so much better if only we didn't have to endure one more conversation about "Where's Carl!?!?" or see Lori do a 180 on an important topic (wasn't she needling Rick into killing Shane just a few episodes ago?).
Amen, brother. Lori getting all don't-touch-me after Rick told her what happened with Shane was the final straw. I've lost all sympathy for the character.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Definitely rooting for the horde. This show would be so much better if only we didn't have to endure one more conversation about "Where's Carl!?!?" or see Lori do a 180 on an important topic (wasn't she needling Rick into killing Shane just a few episodes ago?).Amen, brother. Lori getting all don't-touch-me after Rick told her what happened with Shane was the final straw. I've lost all sympathy for the character.
A border collie would do a better job looking after Carl...
Also who is the only one who took the burden of shooting Sophia?
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
A border collie would do a better job looking after Carl...Definitely rooting for the horde. This show would be so much better if only we didn't have to endure one more conversation about "Where's Carl!?!?" or see Lori do a 180 on an important topic (wasn't she needling Rick into killing Shane just a few episodes ago?).Amen, brother. Lori getting all don't-touch-me after Rick told her what happened with Shane was the final straw. I've lost all sympathy for the character.
A meth-addict posing as a border collie, trying to score "just one more hit" of meth while performing sexual services and eating a cheeseburger would do a better job of looking after Carl.
Hell, I do a better job of looking after Carl, and I don't even exist in the same fictional universe as him.
Rick was about to until Daryl pulled the gun away. Even going so far as to say Rick shouldn't be the only one to have to deal with that kind of stuff, and but I do agree Rick has made some COLLASSOL bad judgements calls/no calls.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In a zombie apocalypse, I'd likely snap after a while. Do stupid, impulsive things...like seeking out lone walkers and hanging those pine tree car air fresheners around their necks and then run away.
Superstar analysis, Neil. Well done.
Rick's thing is that he's trying to hold on to his humanity. He's making tough decisions in an upside-down world and that is very "real". Dude is fair and tries to do the right thing for his family and his party. Gotta respect that.
BTW - I second Billzabub - well done, Neil.
In a zombie apocalypse, I'd likely snap after a while. Do stupid, impulsive things...like seeking out lone walkers and hanging those pine tree car air fresheners around their necks and then run away.
can't you just imagine the guys in the show coming across a small force of zombies roaming through the woods with their pine fresh scent thingies dangling from their neck?
a wtf moment to be sure.
lol
-S
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Moar Walking Dead based Internets Humor:
*hangs an air freshener around Aberzombie's neck and runs off giggling (after making sure it's "new car" scented)*
|
|
Ten Reasons Why the Walking Dead Should Just Kill Carl
People just need to get the f#*! over Carl.
He's 12! Of course he's not going to stay in the house when all the interesting s~@! is OUTSIDE! What's that you say? It's dangerous out there? Hot damn, even MORE awesome!!!
Seriously, how many of us really did what out parents told us to when we were 12? Not very many. And those who did, did so only because they were to damn scared of the whipping they might get if they got caught. Well, the rest of us weren't scared. And it's a good thing that Carl isn't scared either. There is to much s*%~ that Carl has to do in this story that couldn't happen if he stayed all sheltered and secure in the damned house!
Hell, the comics have basically evolved into 'Carl's story'. For that to happen we need a Carl that is experiencing the zombie apocalypse, not hiding from it.
This topic tangent gives a whole new meaning to the slang, 'hot carl.' As putrid as zombies.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Ten Reasons Why the Walking Dead Should Just Kill CarlPeople just need to get the f*** over Carl.
He's 12! Of course he's not going to stay in the house when all the interesting s#&# is OUTSIDE! What's that you say? It's dangerous out there? Hot damn, even MORE awesome!!!
Seriously, how many of us really did what out parents told us to when we were 12? Not very many. And those who did, did so only because they were to damn scared of the whipping they might get if they got caught. Well, the rest of us weren't scared. And it's a good thing that Carl isn't scared either. There is to much s+&% that Carl has to do in this story that couldn't happen if he stayed all sheltered and secure in the damned house!
Hell, the comics have basically evolved into 'Carl's story'. For that to happen we need a Carl that is experiencing the zombie apocalypse, not hiding from it.
I'm theoretically okay with that, but every time he wanders off, I have to endure a scene with Lori losing her s#@$. I'd be a bigger advocate of killing Lori.
I also think people are way too hard on the actor playing Carl. I think he's doing a pretty damn good job.
I also think people are way too hard on the actor playing Carl. I think he's doing a pretty damn good job.
He reminds me of DJ from the Rosanne sitcom. Increases the annoying factor when people put the pieces together.
I think people are going a bit overboard on the show in general. It's a good show. Then again, I have to consider how open the writers were with their forum for the comic. When you have that kind of direct access to the writers for one version of the story, it can be frustrating to see another version.
I actually think the show's writers have done a better job of telling the survivors' stories than the comic writers. Now, in fairness, one of the guys (even the main guy) writing for the show is the same one who did the writing for the comic...I believe. But, as we all know, books (and even comic books) don't always translate as easily to the screen (big or small). You're often constrained by the number of actors you can pay for your cast...the limitations of real world sets...and just the lens of the camera to tell the actual story. Given what the writers of the show started with, I think they've done an excellent job.
Additionally, I think a lot of the people casting aspersions on the show (and I don't mean you guys here, but rather a lot of would-be experts commenting on blogs and such), went into the show with entirely unrealistic expectations. That certainly explains their disappointments or frustrations with the show. But, thankfully, I'm not saddled with any of that. It's still the best darn zombie series ever done for TV.
But that's just my two cents,
--Neil
|
|
Ten Reasons Why the Walking Dead Should Just Kill CarlPeople just need to get the f*** over Carl.
He's 12! Of course he's not going to stay in the house when all the interesting s#&# is OUTSIDE! What's that you say? It's dangerous out there? Hot damn, even MORE awesome!!!
Seriously, how many of us really did what out parents told us to when we were 12? Not very many. And those who did, did so only because they were to damn scared of the whipping they might get if they got caught. Well, the rest of us weren't scared. And it's a good thing that Carl isn't scared either. There is to much s+&% that Carl has to do in this story that couldn't happen if he stayed all sheltered and secure in the damned house!
Hell, the comics have basically evolved into 'Carl's story'. For that to happen we need a Carl that is experiencing the zombie apocalypse, not hiding from it.
I'm theoretically okay with that, but every time he wanders off, I have to endure a scene with Lori losing her s+$$. I'd be a bigger advocate of killing Lori.
I also think people are way too hard on the actor playing Carl. I think he's doing a pretty damn good job.
I can agree with that.
But, Lori serves her purpose. And the prison, leaves it's mark on... well everybody. The next problem I see is that so much story happens at and around that location that they will really need a couple of seasons to really do it justice. And we see how impatient people got with the farm.
:/