Simulacrum confusion...

[Midnight_Angel]

By the rules, a simulacrum has half the Hit Dice of the original, and derives its class features (if it has class levels) from there. So far, so good.

In case of creating a simulacrum of a multiclassed character, do I halve all of her class levels, or do I distribute the levels as I see fit? Would a simulacrum of a fighter 6 / rogue 6 be fighter 3 / rogue 3, or can I distribute anything among the lines of fighter X / rogue 6-X (where X is any number from 0 to 6)?

If I halve all levels, what happens to odd levels? Rounding down, as is the default, will lead to... interesting results. A simulacrum of fighter 5 / rogue 5 has 5 class levels... which fighter 2 / rogue 2 will not account for.

More fun? Let's simul someone with a Prestige Class. What would a simulacrum of a Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 4 be, given the fact that I need both Wizard 3 and Cleric 3 to even qualify for taking levels in Mystic Theurge?

One more question: Which feats does the simulacrum get? Any level-appropriate subset of feats the original had (assuming the simulacrum qualifies for the feats in question)? The set of feats the original took until reaching half its current level?

[KrispyXIV]

Midnight_Angel wrote:

By the rules, a simulacrum has half the Hit Dice of the original, and derives its class features (if it has class levels) from there. So far, so good.

In case of creating a simulacrum of a multiclassed character, do I halve all of her class levels, or do I distribute the levels as I see fit? Would a simulacrum of a fighter 6 / rogue 6 be fighter 3 / rogue 3, or can I distribute anything among the lines of fighter X / rogue 6-X (where X is any number from 0 to 6)?

If I halve all levels, what happens to odd levels? Rounding down, as is the default, will lead to... interesting results. A simulacrum of fighter 5 / rogue 5 has 5 class levels... which fighter 2 / rogue 2 will not account for.

More fun? Let's simul someone with a Prestige Class. What would a simulacrum of a Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 4 be, given the fact that I need both Wizard 3 and Cleric 3 to even qualify for taking levels in Mystic Theurge?

One more question: Which feats does the simulacrum get? Any level-appropriate subset of feats the original had (assuming the simulacrum qualifies for the feats in question)? The set of feats the original took until reaching half its current level?

My opinion on the matter:

Spirit of the rules: I would rebuild the simulacrum to approximate as close to 'half' the original character as possible. If its a Fighter 6/Rogue 6, and this means that I can get 'half power' best at Fighter 5/Rogue 1, so be it.

Literal reading: Just go as close to half of each as possible, going up or down as per above. This spell actually requires a lot of work to use, IMO, and is kindof a pain.

Expedient, on the fly ruling if game is in play: chop off the (rounded down) top half of the spell list, half BAB, subtract half HD from key skill checks, and reduce saves by the appropriate amount; dont worry about much else until you have time for the above two.

[SolitonMan]

KrispyXIV wrote:

My opinion on the matter:

Spirit of the rules: I would rebuild the simulacrum to approximate as close to 'half' the original character as possible. If its a Fighter 6/Rogue 6, and this means that I can get 'half power' best at Fighter 5/Rogue 1, so be it.

Literal reading: Just go as close to half of each as possible, going up or down as per above. This spell actually requires a lot of work to use, IMO, and is kindof a pain.

Expedient, on the fly ruling if game is in play: chop off the (rounded down) top half of the spell list, half BAB, subtract half HD from key skill checks, and reduce saves by the appropriate amount; dont worry about much else until you have time for the above two.

I pretty much agree with Krispy on this one. As long as the resulting creature is consistent from a rules perspective, I allow any selection of appropriate class levels, feats, skills, etc. already possessed by the original.

This is a spell that could stand revisitation. It's never been well described in any edition of D&D IMO, and the Pathfinder version is basically the same as the 3.5 version. While it says that damage can be repaired at a cost of 100 gp/HP, it doesn't say if any sort of healing works on the creature (although the spell description DOES specify that the effect of the spell is "one duplicate creature." Can creatures be healed - or in the case of constructs, repaired? And just what is involved in the process to repair the simulacrum? Is this the ONLY way to repair simulacrum damage?)

There are a lot of holes in this spell, so ultimately you should work with your group to ensure that the way you play it is fun and not unbalancing to the game in general.

[Tacticslion]

Just to drop my recently learned info and a personal two cents...

First, I was recently told that simulacrum was described by Paizo staff as creating a real, living, breathing creature. Granted, a creature from ice and snow, but real. I can't give a source on that because... well, I don't have one, it's just what I was told here that the correct interpretation was that they were new living creatures, though my original belief was that they were illusions (and/or constructs?).

Part two: I'd say recreate them as they were X levels ago, where X = half their current level (rounded down). While thematic problems exist - "they won't be a mystic theurge anymore!" - it's probably the most accurate way to interpret the wording's intent.

So, if the original looked like this:

the original level growth wrote:

Level 1 - fighter

Level 2 - rogue
Level 3 - fighter
Level 4 - rogue
Level 5 - fighter
Level 6 - rogue
Level 7 - fighter
Level 8 - rogue
Level 9 - fighter

... the simulacrum would look like this:

simulacrum wrote:

Level 1 - fighter

Level 2 - rogue
Level 3 - fighter
Level 4 - rogue

... while if the original looked like this:

the original level growth wrote:

Level 1 - fighter

Level 2 - fighter
Level 3 - fighter
Level 4 - fighter
Level 5 - rogue
Level 6 - rogue
Level 7 - rogue
Level 8 - rogue
Level 9 - rogue

... the simulacrum would look like this:

the original level growth wrote:

Level 1 - fighter

Level 2 - fighter
Level 3 - fighter
Level 4 - fighter

Anyway, that's always been my take on/understanding of it.

Hope that helps!

[Ravingdork]

The devs have stated unofficially that they would halve all levels, so an X 6/ X 6 would become X 3/ X 3. This applies equally to racial hit dice as it does class levels.

[Tacticslion]

Ravingdork wrote:

The devs have stated unofficially that they would halve all levels, so an X 6/ X 6 would become X 3/ X 3. This applies equally to racial hit dice as it does class levels.

NICE. I like this better. I'm going to be applying it in Golarion, then.

[Ravingdork]

Tacticslion: They ARE illusions, but for all mechanical purposes, they are treated like real creatures (with the sole exception of healing).

It's just easier to manage that way I guess.

[sunbeam]

This spell is screwed up. If you are going to use it your group had better figure out how you want it to work.

I think it is better to just not use the spell at all, it is that broken.

If you do some searches on these boards you'll find some ways people have used or speculated the spell can be used, and none of it is pretty.

For example you can make a Tarrasque mount. What a half-level Tarrasque is exactly no one exactly knows, but it is sure to be pretty impressive.

There is other stuff floating around on this spell as well. You might note that you can have as many simulacrums as you have powdered ruby to make.

And as written it isn't even necessary to have encountered the individual or type of creature you are creating.

Maybe you guys can come up with some kind of fix for it, but it is just a stupid spell as written.

Especially if your opponents use it as well.

[Ravingdork]

Many of the problems with the spell have long since been clarified by (very kind) developers. You can find many of these questions and answeres here.

[addiejd]

New question:

The spell says: At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner.

What happens to the Simulacrum if the telepathic link is severed? It says that it can be detected with a Sense Motive check as well as a Disguise check, so does that mean that it retains personality traits of the original? If so, would it behave the way the original would (or even think it WAS the original that had just been released from mind control) or would it just be inert until its creator regained command?

Also, could the control be transferred to a third party?

[VRMH]

addiejd wrote:

What happens to the Simulacrum if the telepathic link is severed?

They don't have a telepathic link to sever, unless you create one separately of course. The obedience of a Simulacrum is "baked into them", it's a part of their essence.

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does that mean that it retains personality traits of the original?

Yes. In almost all ways the Simulacrum is the original. Just with half the powers and an obedience to their maker.

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would it behave the way the original would

As much as possible, yes.

Quote:

(or even think it WAS the original that had just been released from mind control)

If there's no actual maker around to be obeyed... then I guess a Simulacrum might not realise it is one.

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or would it just be inert until its creator regained command?

Only if its original would do that, like a simulacrum of a Golem.

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Also, could the control be transferred to a third party?

Not that I'm aware of, though the Simulacrum could be ordered to obey its new master as well as the old one.

[Azothath]

Read J.Jacob's post on Simulacrum. Note the opening caveat.

I've seen both methods used with Simulacrum a)current levels/2 and b) historical level progression halved. I really think it's up to the GM as both make sense, just don't flip flop around too much.

A case in point is racial levels/equivalence. If you simulacrum a CR6 creature with 6 class levels do you get CR3 and 3 class levels or CR6 creature with maybe a level or two?... it's a balancing act.
I prefer to think of it as the caster does it and sees what he gets. It's a bit of an experiment and some trial and error should be expected <evil grin>. Magic IMO involves some chaos, it's not a set thing like science which is based on reproducibility.

It could get odd if a caster makes a Simulacrum and then the caster gets possessed. Will the Simulacrum obey the master/sock puppet? Probably as there's no magical link to the caster. The Simulacrum would make the usual Sense Motive check, probably fail, and accept the commands. There could be a password/command word involved but I don't think most casters are that paranoid. It also opens up the possibility of a high Disguise check fooling the Simulacrum and Use Magic Device would be helpful for creatures that cannot cast Simulacrum but want to command the illusory creature. It's very much a gray area.
The same oddness happens if the original caster dies. Does the Simulacrum melt? Does it carry on? I think most GMs would just have it melt as that's the sensible thing to do.

[Plausible Pseudonym]

No way, neither permanent nor instantaneous spells end after their caster dies. The simulacrum would just carry on. With scrolls and a good UMD this also lets you set up a simulacrum to Discern Location and then True Resurrection or Wish you back to life if appropriate if you haven't checked in, or try to get to you and use Freedom if you were Imprisoned, turned to stone, etc.

[addiejd]

Thanks for your input on the telepathy part, but one thing that wasn't addressed was:

"...so command must be exercised in some other manner."

This implies to me that the spellcaster has to do something other than just create the simulacrum in order to have control over it, such as casting charm or dominate or some other mind control spell. Then the caster would cast permanency on the control spell.

This leads me to believe that the caster could order the simulacrum to obey a third party or that a third party could gain control over the simulacrum in a similar way that someone does when they cast dominate on someone already dominated, they just have to beat the saving throw of the caster instead of the creature, and when that dominate wears off the original one is back in effect.

However, it also says:

"...At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command..."

So what happens when you're a high enough level to cast simulacrum but not permanency, and the simulacrum makes its saving throw? If it is supposed to be like the original being in every way, then unless one is making a simulacrum of themselves or of someone completely loyal to them then the simulacrum's personality would not be inclined to obey its caster, and the way the spell is written the control of the simulacrum is not woven into its spell.

Azothath also brought up a good point about what would happen if the caster died. At least during combat, when an enemy caster dominates a PC it is dispelled when the caster dies, so I don't know if a simulacrum would attempt to resurrect its caster, especially if it knew that by doing so it would be dominated again.

[_Ozy_]

What? No. You don't need to do something other than just create the simulacrum in order to have control over it. The spell explicitly says the opposite.

[Ramarren]

In this case, 'some other manner' means speech or some other means of communication

[Joesi]

I'd cut the highest levels first. Personally I'd also give a free half HD worth of HP if the original HD was an odd number.

So a 11/1/1 would become 4/1/1 plus some extra HP.

For 5/5 I'd put it to 3/2. Which class? I'd maybe flip a coin.

I don't know why someone would simulacrum something that is only level 5 and went 1/1/1/1/1 (or even how such a thing exists in the first place), but in that case I'd consider just removing some random class features, and removing 2.5 HD.

Sometimes it's best to focus on the intention, rather than trying to "interpret" a RAW that doesn't exist and/or which would have dumb outcomes.

Oftentimes the simulacrum target doesn't even have class levels which makes things even worse than if it did IMO.

[Set]

Joesi wrote:

Sometimes it's best to focus on the intention, rather than trying to "interpret" a RAW that doesn't exist and/or which would have dumb outcomes.

That's pretty much my thought, as well.

Quote:

Oftentimes the simulacrum target doesn't even have class levels which makes things even worse than if it did IMO.

Very few monsters are easily adjusted in this manner, with dragons, somewhat shockingly, being one of the 'easy ones,' since you can generally down-age them to 'half HD,' whereas determining what a 'half-HD' sphinx or succubi can do is less clear (other than probably eliminating any abilities that are too high level for it's new HD, so that a 4 HD succubus simulacrum should have CL 6, and therefore no SLAs above 3rd level, with it being up to the GM to decide if it has lower-level versions of pre-existing abilities, such as charm person, in place of charm monster or summon (one 3 HD quasit) in place of summon (one 7 HD babau)).

[Jonas Seaborn]

here's the stats from a published adventure

Female simulacrum succubus bard 1 (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 68)
CE Medium outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, extraplanar)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60ft., detect good; Perception +22
DEFENSE
AC 21 , touch 14, flat-footed 1 7 (+4 Dex, +7 natural)
hp 103 each (9H D; 8d10+1 d8+55)
Fort +8, Ref +12, Will +10
DR 10/cold iron or good; Immune electricity, fire, poison; Resist
acid 10, cold 10; SR 18
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., fly 5O ft. (average)
Melee 2 claws + 12 (1d4+3)
Special Attacks: bardic performance 14 rounds/day (countersong, distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +1), energy drain, profane gift
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th; concentration +22)
Constant-detect good, tongues
At will-charm monster (DC 24), detect thoughts (DC 22), ethereal jaunt (self plus 5O lbs. of objects only), greater teleport (self plus 5O lbs. of objects only), suggestion (DC
23), vampiric touch 1/day-dominate person (DC 25), summon (level 3, 1 babau 5O%)
Bard Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +11)
1st (4/day)-animate rope, hideous laughter (DC 22)
0 (at will)-mage hand, mending, message, prestidigitation
STATISTICS
Str 17, Dex 1 9, Con 22, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 31
Base Atk + 8 ; CMB +11 ; CMD 25
Feats Arcane Strike, Dazzling Display, Spell Focus (enchantment),
Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (whip)
Skills Acrobatics +35, Bluff +30, Diplomacy +35, Escape Artist +1 6, Fly +35, Intimidate +22, Knowledge (arcana, planes) +16, Perception +22,
Perform (dance, oratory) +22, Sense Motive +35, Stealth + 1 6
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Draconic, Thassilonian; telepathy 100ft.
SQ change shape (Small or Medium humanoid; alter self), bardic knowledge + 1

[Set]

Jonas Seaborn wrote:

here's the stats from a published adventure [SNIP]

Dayum. That's like 110% of a succubus, not 50% of a succubus (she's got 10 attribute points over the Bestiary version!).

I'm vaguely (and perhaps inaccurately...) reminded of 3.0 simulacrum, which, IIRC, could be Empowered and Maximized to 90%.

Maybe she was simulacra-d from a succubus with 10 bard levels (18 HD), and 'half' of that was a succubus with 1 bard level (9 HD)? Still doesn't explain the ridonkulous stats. Maybe they come from magic items, or buffs, or her original self using manuals and librams (which, as a simulacrum, unable to gain power, she can't).

[Bob Bob Bob]

The stats are actually from the NPC rules.

Step 2: Add Class Levels wrote:

Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores

The rest of the stuff, that I just don't know. For one thing, it still has the full HD of a normal succubus. So a level 10 bard (or a 16 HD succubus)?

[_Ozy_]

Yeah, that makes no sense. She has spell-like abilities at 12th level, just like a full succubus, and a full set of SLAs with boosted DCs (from the increased stats).

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I prefer the interpretation where I can pick and choose from the original's class levels.