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Hail, good men and women of Messageboards/Homebrew. Lately I've been working on a fairly wide-spread reworking of the rules, in order to make a point-based, classless, and (most importantly) customizable Pathfinder-ish system. As I said there are no classes, PC's for the most part advance through boosting their Ability Scores using a point-based buying mechanic.
Getting to the root of my problem: I want to have spells that can be leveled up. Each PC has an amount of Spell Points determined by his Int score. These Spell Points are spent to learn new spells, or upgrade spells he could already cast. Each spell is learned at Spell Level 1, and can be upgraded up to Spell Level 6. These spell levels should be approximately equal in power to normal Pathfinder spell levels. My main issue is that I'm at a loss for WHAT spells to put in here, and HOW they should progress as they are upgraded...
The Cure line is pretty easy: level 1 is just like Cure Light, level 2 is just like Cure Mod, etc.
However, that's pretty much where it stops being easy. How do you split Dimension Door into six variants from level 1 through 6?
So, my direct questions:
1. What spells/spell effects are essential to playing? That is, what spells or effects really NEED to be represented?
2. Does anyone have any ideas for the various levels of upgrading a specific spell? Or in general?
I hope I explained clearly enough, but if not I'd be happy to go into more detail :)
Thanks in advance, all!
You'll need to decide what to do about cantrips/orisons. You also may want to look at words of power for some suggestions.
How often can they cast the spells? Can people start out with putting all of their "spell points" into one spell line at the beginning? If I have an Int of 20, for example, can I drop all my points into "Fire" 1-5, or do I have to spread them out?
Perhaps the easiest way to do it is to go with each spell point gives you a level in a cleric domain (or possibly subdomain). You'll probably have to add a few domains for spells that are not normally part of a domain set, like perhaps a summoning domain, which has all the summoning spells, or an illusion domain, with the illusion spells.
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First off, thanks for the replies so far!
You also may want to look at words of power for some suggestions.
Words of Power would be a great starting point...
Ah, that's actually a great idea! I can't believe I completely missed that :P
You'll need to decide what to do about cantrips/orisons. How often can they cast the spells?
Spells a PC knows can be cast as many times as they would like. Perhaps I should move things down a level, and let a Spell Level 1 spell be equal in power to a cantrip/orison? Hmmm...
Anyway, there's no spell slots, or spells per day. Instead of being limited by times per day, spellcasting in combat is limited by action economy: casting a powerful spell means you won't be casting any other spells or attacking. Spellcasting out of combat is limited by spells known: having those utility spells available means leaving out other potentially useful combat spells.
I should also mention two things: 1) The system is somewhat geared towards "gish-y" characters. Someone concentrating on physical fighting still won't be a very powerful caster, but he'll likely be able to cast Enlarge Person or Expeditious Retreat. 2) I realize that this will be a little bit of a "higher-powered" system, and I'm prepared for that :)
Can people start out with putting all of their "spell points" into one spell line at the beginning? If I have an Int of 20, for example, can I drop all my points into "Fire" 1-5, or do I have to spread them out?
No, each spell level has a requirement, usually a requirement of stats. Cure spells for instance require:
Wisdom 10 for level 1Wisdom 12 for level 2
Wisdom 15 for level 3
Wisdom 20 for level 4
Wisdom 25 for level 5
Wisdom 30 for level 6
I'm hoping to keep that spread for all spells, but I'm anticipating a few of the more powerful spells may need higher requirements.
Other than that, you're limited by available spell points: at 20 Int, you've got 18 SP, which could give you a 5th level (if you the required stat at 25) and a 2nd level at best, and you're sacrificing a lot of versatility to do so. Note that a character with a 20 Int and another stat at 25 should be about 6th level. I know that sounds way powerful in standard Pathfinder, but remember they won't have all those class abilities to back those stats up.
Perhaps the easiest way to do it is to go with each spell point gives you a level in a cleric domain (or possibly subdomain). You'll probably have to add a few domains for spells that are not normally part of a domain set, like perhaps a summoning domain, which has all the summoning spells, or an illusion domain, with the illusion spells.
That's a pretty good idea, too!
...but I would suggest the psionics system from dreamscarred press. It already uses a point system with options of improving ability power, just call them spells instead of powers.
I've actually been using it already, and it's been a great help. However, psionics doesn't cover a lot of the unique magic spells.
I dont know that you would be able to represent most of the unique spells without a total re-write. For instance, grease is a great first level spell, but i cant concieve of any way to make the same spell a 6th level spell. I also dont know how you would make black tentacles a 1st level spell.
The pit spells from the APG would be good for this though, they have a clear progression, so do summon monster and natures ally spells.
As far as what spells are 'needed' i'd say the only absolutely neccessary ones are detect/read magic and the cure/condition removal spells. Everything else is good but optional.
So design a spell/group that incorporates neutralize poison, lesser restoration, remove disease, remove paralysis, restoration and greater restoration and I think you are ok so long as you keep cantrips around. Ofcourse it probably wont be as much fun to play a wizardlike character with such a limited selection of spells.
Oily Misery
School conjuration (creation); Level sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (blubber from an aboleth)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ levels)
Target one 100 ft. by 100 ft. region
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Save see text; SR no
Oily misery covers a solid surface with a layer of terrible slime. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall, and any living creature must make a successful Fortitude save or suffer 1d4+1 Con damage. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 15 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed. For every round a living creature remains in the slime of the oily misery, it must continue to make a Fortitude save or suffer 1d4+1 Con damage.
Further, the slime produced by oily misery gives off a toxin that slowly affects the minds of those affected. Anyone forced to make more than one Reflex or Fortitude save by oily misery (two of either type of save or one of each) must also make a successful Will save or become confused. Any confused creature that fails to act normally on its turn must make another successful Will save or suffer 1 point each of Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma damage. This toxin is a mind-affecting effect and any being immune to such effects is immune to this toxin.
Anyone making four successful consecutive saves (of any type) against oily misery is no longer affected by any of its effects and remains immune to the effects of oily misery for 24 hours.
I don't see why you need spells level 1-6 for all spells. Why not have some spells that are level 1 only, some range from levels 2-4, etc?
A fairly well done example of this is actually the Wheel of Time game that was done by WotC. The game had a lot of flaws but I thought the magic system was fairly well done. It still relied on spells per day, so you have some work to do there. Also, Idk if you can find it in print anywhere now. I don't think it was hugely popular and it got canceled because apparently WotC messed with Robert Jordan's characters in their adventure path.
I think the problem inherent in the concept is the idea of all spells existing at all levels.
Rather a tree based structure may be more appropriate. Cure might have a full progression, but Dispel might start at 3rd and then go up to 9th as disjunction. Remove(Effect) might have a tree that starts and ends somewhere in the middle, ith a broad amount of lateral expansion. Remove disease, remove poision, at the beginning, but Freedom of movement might be as high as this tree goes.
Edit: May be just restating previous comment *sigh*
I think the problem inherent in the concept is the idea of all spells existing at all levels.
Rather a tree based structure may be more appropriate. Cure might have a full progression, but Dispel might start at 3rd and then go up to 9th as disjunction. Remove(Effect) might have a tree that starts and ends somewhere in the middle, ith a broad amount of lateral expansion. Remove disease, remove poision, at the beginning, but Freedom of movement might be as high as this tree goes.
Edit: May be just restating previous comment *sigh*
It's ok Brambleman. I do have a level of ninja. XP
You could take a look at the work I've done with spell seeds. Mind you, what I've created so far is only for evocation spells, but it might get your juices going.