| 8 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
This was brough up in another thread, a 20th level paladin is boned the way the holy champion ability is written because when you attack an evil outsider they are subject to a banishment effect and then (regardless if they are gone or not) the smite ends.
Here is the link.
Am i reading something wrong?
Because i seriously doubt that the paladin is supposed to become worse at smiting evil outsiders when he hits 20th level.
You are reading it right. However, I personally house rule that the Paladin can choose whether or not to utilize the banishment effect when striking an evil outsider. If he does, it works as described, but if he doesn't then the smite works normally.
|
Not really, they end up subject to banishment, with a probably difficult save, besides they still have all the other neat stuff they are probably running. Think about it, that's baseline +40 damage to that hit, not including whatever else may add on to it, most outsiders are lucky to survive that hit, heaven forbid they have a sun blade, then even Balors are crying for mommy, and now they have to make a will save or be sent back home.
Not really, they end up subject to banishment, with a probably difficult save, besides they still have all the other neat stuff they are probably running. Think about it, that's baseline +40 damage to that hit, not including whatever else may add on to it, most outsiders are lucky to survive that hit, heaven forbid they have a sun blade, then even Balors are crying for mommy, and now they have to make a will save or be sent back home.
And if they survive the Smite ends...
|
|
Not really, they end up subject to banishment, with a probably difficult save, besides they still have all the other neat stuff they are probably running. Think about it, that's baseline +40 damage to that hit, not including whatever else may add on to it, most outsiders are lucky to survive that hit, heaven forbid they have a sun blade, then even Balors are crying for mommy, and now they have to make a will save or be sent back home.And if they survive the Smite ends...
Then do it again, you've only got 7 of them. Most games don't even make it that far.
Then do it again, you've only got 7 of them. Most games don't even make it that far.Not really, they end up subject to banishment, with a probably difficult save, besides they still have all the other neat stuff they are probably running. Think about it, that's baseline +40 damage to that hit, not including whatever else may add on to it, most outsiders are lucky to survive that hit, heaven forbid they have a sun blade, then even Balors are crying for mommy, and now they have to make a will save or be sent back home.And if they survive the Smite ends...
On the other hand, you can simply take 19 levels of Paladin and proceed to beat it to death a hell of alot faster than only getting 7 tries to banish it - hell, you get at least 4 attacks A TURN at 20th level. I'll take an extra +X to hit and +40 points of damage plus another possible +60 points of damage a turn instead of trying to banish it and failing.
|
|
On the other hand, you can simply take 19 levels of Paladin and proceed to beat it to death a hell of alot faster than only getting 7 tries to banish it - hell, you get at least 4 attacks A TURN at 20th level. I'll take an extra +X to hit and +40 points of damage plus another possible +60 points of damage a turn instead of trying to banish it and failing.
I'm still unsure why the paladin's smite ends on the banishment effect, it's an ability that only works on one type of creature attached to a level 20 ability, it should be incredibly powerful, especially since almost no one makes it that far.
On the other hand, you can simply take 19 levels of Paladin and proceed to beat it to death a hell of alot faster than only getting 7 tries to banish it - hell, you get at least 4 attacks A TURN at 20th level. I'll take an extra +X to hit and +40 points of damage plus another possible +60 points of damage a turn instead of trying to banish it and failing.I'm still unsure why the paladin's smite ends on the banishment effect, it's an ability that only works on one type of creature attached to a level 20 ability, it should be incredibly powerful, especially since almost no one makes it that far.
Because the rules say so? By saying the banishment effect they imply even on a sucessfull save, so when a 19th paladin hits an evil outsider (and doesn't kill him) he can hit him again with smite with his rest attacks but at 20th level after his first attack that hits him the smite ends that means that the rest of his attacks don't get any of the smiting bonuses. So if the evil outsider makes the save the paladin suddenly becomes worse at fighting it.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
One more question:
What's the DC of the banishment effect?
Sure it is +4 because you have two items that he hates (your weapon and holy symbol) but how do figure out the DC?
|
|
One more question:
What's the DC of the banishment effect?
Sure it is +4 because you have two items that he hates (your weapon and holy symbol) but how do figure out the DC?
I meant "why did they make it so smite ends?" not "Where does it say smite ends?"
DC is probably 20+cha mod. That ability does really need to be reworded.
One more question:
What's the DC of the banishment effect?
Sure it is +4 because you have two items that he hates (your weapon and holy symbol) but how do figure out the DC?I meant "why did they make it so smite ends?" not "Where does it say smite ends?"
DC is probably 20+cha mod. That ability does really need to be reworded.
Oh sorry then, i misunderstood.
Where does that 20 come from? Paladin level?|
|
One more question:
What's the DC of the banishment effect?
Sure it is +4 because you have two items that he hates (your weapon and holy symbol) but how do figure out the DC?I meant "why did they make it so smite ends?" not "Where does it say smite ends?"
DC is probably 20+cha mod. That ability does really need to be reworded.
Oh sorry then, i misunderstood.
Where does that 20 come from? Paladin level?
DC 10+ 6 (cleric level 6 spell)+4 (two foci)
DC 10+ 6 (cleric level 6 spell)+4 (two foci)One more question:
What's the DC of the banishment effect?
Sure it is +4 because you have two items that he hates (your weapon and holy symbol) but how do figure out the DC?I meant "why did they make it so smite ends?" not "Where does it say smite ends?"
DC is probably 20+cha mod. That ability does really need to be reworded.
Oh sorry then, i misunderstood.
Where does that 20 come from? Paladin level?
Since it is a supernatural ability rather than a spell, it should be 10 + 1/2 level + relevant stat, thus 24+Cha
10 (base) + 10 (pally level/2) + 4 (2 foci) + Cha = 24+Cha
That sounds a lot better can you point me to a rule saying so about supernatural abilities?
That sounds a lot better can you point me to a rule saying so about supernatural abilities?
There isn't one, sadly, as far as I know, and it is one of the sticky points about this ability.
The best I can do is point you to the many examples of Su and Sp abilities using 10 + 1/2 level + stat as their DC. Witch's Hexes, Alchemist's bombs, cleric domain powers, wizard school powers, sorcerer bloodline powers, etc.
Anything, basically, which isn't itself a spell uses 10 + 1/2 level + stat. This includes effects which might otherwise be a spell (witch's slumber hex, which specifically functions as sleep without the HD restriction).
The other issue with trying to use spell level as an indicator here, which might be a viable choice since it says that "the outsider is also subject to a banishment," implying that it is actually the spell, is that paladins can't cast banishment.
Using cleric as the closest alternative kind of makes the most sense thematically, but ultimately is no more based in the rules than anything else. Why should the paladin use the cleric version instead of the superior sorc/wizard version? And why is the cleric version more thematically appropriate at the end of the day than the inferior inquisitor version?
Note that a level 20 Oathbound Paladin who has taken the Oath Against Fiends cannot, by letter of the rule, use his smite evil against fiends on any plane other than the fiend's native plane without violating his oath and losing all its abilities.
Relevant text:
The banishment effect is just silly and counterproductive. I recommend either making it optional or just removing it altogether.Code of Conduct: Never suffer an evil outsider to live if it is in your power to destroy it. Banish fiends you cannot kill. Purge the evil from those possessed by fiends.
---
If a paladin violates the code of her oath, she loses the class abilities associated with that oath until she atones.
---
Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). After the banishment effect and the damage from the attack is resolved, the smite immediately ends.
Worse: as written, the smite still creates a Banishment effect and then ends even if the outsider is not a valid target for banishment, such as a Tiefling on the Material Plane, or a Pit Fiend encountered in Hell.
The simple fix: the Paladin may choose to attempt to use the Banishment effect as a swift action after hitting with any smite attack against the evil outsider. Everything else resolves as normal.
Ok even if the base DC for the banishment is 10 + 1/2 paladin levels + CHA.
Can someone check it against the will save of powerful evil outsiders in order to see how often the paladin will be able to succeed?
|
|
Ok even if the base DC for the banishment is 10 + 1/2 paladin levels + CHA.
Can someone check it against the will save of powerful evil outsiders in order to see how often the paladin will be able to succeed?
Best Cha you are getting makes the save DC 37, base10+level10+cha13+foci4. Save on a Balor is 35.
I seem to have interpreted the rule/ability a bit differently.
To me, the 20th level ability of smite/banishment ends only once the banishment has taken effect (the creature is banished), not when the first attack hits. This means that the smite works as normal, that is, until that creature has been vanquished, either thru killing their prime material form or banishing them back to their home plane.
So, if a Paladin with 4 attacks a round, attacks an evil outsider, the smite ability works as long as the creature contines to make its saves.
Does that not make more sense and follow the spirit of the smite ability?
I seem to have interpreted the rule/ability a bit differently.
To me, the 20th level ability of smite/banishment ends only once the banishment has taken effect (the creature is banished), not when the first attack hits. This means that the smite works as normal, that is, until that creature has been vanquished, either thru killing their prime material form or banishing them back to their home plane.
So, if a Paladin with 4 attacks a round, attacks an evil outsider, the smite ability works as long as the creature contines to make its saves.
Does that not make more sense and follow the spirit of the smite ability?
My guess would be that was the RAI by the Devs, but the power doesn't read correctly for it.
To clarify, I think the intention was that at level 20, every hit you smite an evil outsider, it's subject to a banishment, and if it fails it's save, it's banished and your smite ends (since normally a smite lasts until you kill it, this makes sense). Of course, there's no reason to put that in, since you normally end a smite yourself by picking a new smite target, or ending combat, or any other number of ways.
If I ever get a level 20 Paladin, I'll just use that, that every hit with a smite against an outsider triggers a banishment, until it's dead, the pally's dead, or it fails a save.