Going up against a fire cult that LOVES spamming fireballs and are, surprisingly, not at all resistant to fire (the ability to be burned goes hand in hand with their rituals).
I'm wondering what the target AC of a fireball bead is. Next time I encounter a group of these cultists, I want to ready an action to shoot the fireball bead just as it leaves their finger tip. They are usually standing closely enough that I might incinerate a whole gang of them at once while also protecting our party from the incoming blast.
They are REALLY small, and seeing as they can cover over a thousand feet instantaneously, they are also SUPER fast. So, what do you think the AC is?
Also, what is the target AC of someone shooting a fireball through an opening that is "just large enough to fit the bead?"
Base AC is 10. The fireball bead is diminutive giving it a +8 to AC. That puts it at an 18. It is a moving target so the GM will have to adhoc the dex modifier. I say to cover that distance it has at least an 18(+4) so at least a 22.
To fit the bead through the hold would be 18-5(0 dex) so 13.
30. You want to basically use a patriot arrow on a pea sized object zooming around at mack 5 then i want to see some near epic rolls.
30. You want to basically use a patriot arrow on a pea sized object zooming around at mack 5 then i want to see some near epic rolls.
I agree, but if I was the GM they might ready an action to all fire at once. That should not affect the other beads and then the party is taking several fireballs at once.
I rarely run cultists as all that smart. that is how they wound up in a cult afterall.
Going up against a fire cult that LOVES spamming fireballs and are, surprisingly, not at all resistant to fire (the ability to be burned goes hand in hand with their rituals).
I'm wondering what the target AC of a fireball bead is. Next time I encounter a group of these cultists, I want to ready an action to shoot the fireball bead just as it leaves their finger tip. They are usually standing closely enough that I might incinerate a whole gang of them at once while also protecting our party from the incoming blast.
They are REALLY small, and seeing as they can cover over a thousand feet instantaneously, they are also SUPER fast. So, what do you think the AC is?
Also, what is the target AC of someone shooting a fireball through an opening that is "just large enough to fit the bead?"
Your best bet might be to use magic as a counter - can you ready a Wall of Ice to ruin their day? Throw up a hemisphere around them, so that they can't escape the blast radius. Ideally, the fireball will deal enough damage to the wall to evaporate it, so your party can have their fun, too.
Prepare to taste firey.... AAAAGH! Where did that wall come from! All my friends are dead!
yea this is definately something you have to consider. Its like a super called shot. If you can nail a fireball bead, then an arrow, or a thrown weapon should be relatively easy. This kind of thing could then be commonplace, and while very cinematic, and kind of cool, it becomes an issue of whether or not the dm wants to deal with such actions that could interrupt the flow of the game, and would require lot's of on the fly rulings from him.
Following the magic line of thought, Readying the the following spells might work, with the trigger of "if he throws a bead":
- "Grease" the bead. The spell is cast, but the center of the fireball would be at his feet.
- "Command" the person to drop the item. Dropping an item is a free action, and it IS the cultist's turn, so the only question is if he could be forced to take the free action before throwing the bead.
- a "Mace of Terror" could make the target panicked, which requires that the panicked person drops what they're carrying. Same question here as with Command.
This is a really interesting line of thought, and I'm curious to see how well it would stand up.
Why not shoot the bead while it's in his hand? He pulls it out, bam!
AC 18 isn't that hard to hit. :P
Why not shoot the bead while it's in his hand? He pulls it out, bam!
AC 18 isn't that hard to hit. :P
Ok, let's take a look at fireball.
First, it creates a pea-sized bead.
Secondly, this pea-sized bead can traverse a minimum of 600' instantly.
So, the AC for a pea-sized object would be base of 10, plus a size modifier. A 'Fine' object is a +8 AC bonus, but a fine object also takes up a 6" space. Extrapolating the table, a pea-sized object is approximately a 1/4" in size... So a basic extrapolation: 3" would be +16, 1.5" would be +32, and .75" would be +64. I'll say a pea-sized object should 'take up' a .75" 'square' and as such the base AC for shooting a pea out of someone's hand would be AC 74 (or 42 if you're generous).
I'm hesitant to say that you can ready an action that can interrupt the path of something moving at a speed of 'instantaneous', but let's take a look at readied actions. You can ready an action to shoot someone casting a spell, but that doesn't work... your readied action would have to be 'When someone points their finger and a pea-sized ball shoots out of it, I fire at the pea'. As soon as you see the pea, it's already streaking at 600 feet per second (to be generous to the shooter) at its target.
Here are some things that travel 600' per second: things twice as fast as arrows.
So, you're not shooting at the bead. You're shooting at where the bead will be when it is moving twice as fast as the arrow that is flying after/towards it. Given that it's moving that fast and is that small...
At this point, it is becoming clear to me that shooting the bead is practically impossible. As such, I'd be willing to grant the following:
If the archer has an arrow nocked and ready to fire at the bead, AND the bead is targeting the archer or someone withing 5' of him, THEN the archer can fire a shot at the arrow vs an AC of 42 or 74 (there are no rules for shooting at moving targets, and honestly the fireball isn't dodging, it's just fast), and IF this attack roll is successful, then the bead explodes 2/3 of the way to its target.
Now, here's an interesting thought, though. What if, instead of an arrow, you readied an action of 'firing a wand of magic missile' at the bead?
In this case, I'd allow the MM to auto-hit the bead out of the air, and also rule that magic missiles fly just as fast as fireball beads (despite the range differences between the two spells), and a readied Magic Missile would cause the bead to explode halfway between the caster of the MM and the Fireball.
You're assuming that hitting it will trigger the explosion?
In short, no.
An early impact results in an early detonation.Right, but it's for the other way around.. if the fireball impacts early it detonates, not if something hits the fireball.
Thus if you want to do this, throw up a barrier spell as the bead is flying from the caster.
-James
There is no meaningful difference between the fireball bead hitting something before it has reached its target and something hitting the fireball bead before it has reached its target.
They both are an early impact and result in an early detonation.
if the fireball impacts early it detonates, not if something hits the fireball.Is there an appreciable difference, either in game rules or normal physics?Does the wizard actually have to roll to hit a hex when launching the fireball into mass melee?
If not, the fireball "bead" must somehow flow around smaller, non-solid obstacles (including arrows) without a chance to impact at all.
For story flavor, yes, it makes for a lot of fun to be able to target it. However, by game rules, I'm not so certain you can. You can target the caster and try to interrupt the spell by the game rules.
That being said, if someone did try to shoot the fireball bead, then I'd say an AC equal to a caster level check mod (level + stat mod, of the fireball caster) + 20 would be what I'd require. Plus, the archer should probably make a Spellcraft roll to be able to identify the spell for timing the shot purposes.
Also, a Magic Missile targeted at the Fireball bead should do nothing as that spell isn't enough to counter-spell the bigger spell (Heighten Spell and the Improved Counter Spell feat withstanding).
If the fireball is going through sufficiently difficult obstacles, then yes, the caster does need to make an attack roll to get it there safely.
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must "hit" the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
So the fireball doesn't actually "dodge" stuff unfailingly.
And magic missile might not be enough to counterspell fireball, but he isn't trying to counterspell it, he is just trying to mess with it. A sufficiently annoying rogue who readies an action to just jump in front of the caster and take the bead to the chest with the same result without even casting a spell. Another wizard could also mage hand a huge sheet of lightweight spider's silk in front of the bead, having the same effect with a 0-level spell.
EDIT: Also, most people above were suggesting a hefty dodge bonus to the bead's AC, which would model it's flitting around minor obstacles, if it does that.
EDIT 2: I also highly recommend against using a d20 roll to set the bead's AC, as it gives the attack roll an effective 40 point variance. Much better to just assume the caster takes 10 (as all AC does), leaving you with 30+casting stat+CL. I would be curious where you got that 20 number, though, as it seems to be simply arbitrarily high in order to prevent this from happening.
magic missile doesn't work on non living objects, so unless the fireball first passes past a mad scientist, a grave robbing hunchback , and a lightning experiment gone wrong on the way to the target the magic missile won't work.
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magic missile doesn't work on non living objects, so unless the fireball first passes past a mad scientist, a grave robbing hunchback , and a lightning experiment gone wrong on the way to the target the magic missile won't work.
Time to make a new thread: "If I give life to my fireball bead but still let it detonate (thus killing it), is that 'evil'?"
;)
And does the bead count as a magical object? Since it is created by an instantaneous duration spell, it would seem not. It is conjured forth by magic, but subsequently has no magic about it.
Thus, you could use your greater quicken rod in order to polymorph any object it into a bird and then hit THAT with the magic missile. Or, perhaps PAO it into a huge dragon and then shoot that. Since you only need to impact it, you are targeting touch AC!
EDIT: You are shooting the bird with MM, but the dragon with the bow which started this whole thing. I know that MM doesn't have an attack roll.
I also highly recommend against using a d20 roll to set the bead's AC, as it gives the attack roll an effective 40 point variance. Much better to just assume the caster takes 10 (as all AC does), leaving you with 30+casting stat+CL. I would be curious where you got that 20 number, though, as it seems to be simply arbitrarily high in order to prevent this from happening.I said "an AC equal to a caster level check mod (level + stat mod, of the fireball caster) + 20".
Example: a level 5 caster with 18 INT would have an AC 29 (5 from level + 4 from INT + 20) Fireball.
Where did I get the +20?
+10 seemed too easy. +30 seemed like it would give no chance besides a nat 20. +20 makes it hard, but a 5th level archer can start to lower the nat 20 to something a touch lower.
Ahh, misread. My mistake. I saw "caster level check mod" as "modified by a caster level check" not "the modifier applied to a caster level check plus casting stat modifier."
So lets say our 5th level archer dedicated to arching is doing this against a 5th level caster dedicated to casting. Their relevant stats will be the same. The caster gets CL as a bonus to AC, the archer gets HD as a bonus to his hit in the form of BAB, so thats all a wash, and will remain a wash up to lvl 20 for a dedicated archer versus a dedicated caster.
All that matters then is the +20 and the archer's attack roll and modifiers. At 5th level, he probably has a +1 bow, point blank shot, weapon training I, possibly weapon focus. So that's +4. The archer needs a 16, which gives him a 25% success rate. 30 is clearly too high (anything over 24 leads to a 5% success -- which is where this would end up if the caster got a d20 on top of it, thus my original comment). 10 is too low (75% success).
Thinking now about a highly specialized group of rangers who all take favored enemy - fireball.
Thinking now about a highly specialized group of rangers who all take favored enemy - fireball.Have your ranger pick up "Throw Anything" and toss his heavy shield at it. I'd say that would earn ya a circumstance bonus.
My favorite idea is still the Firehuggers Rogue's Guild who slink around on the ground then jump up in front of anyone casting a fireball shouting OOGABOOGA!!!! taking the bead in the chest and making everyone explode (at no damage to them, of course).