Crafting magic items question

[Bladeace]

I have taken the master craftsman on my rogue (my craft skill is weapons) and I have also just got the 'craft magic arms and amour' feat (just hit level 7.

I just want to check I understand this right, does this allow me to now craft magic weapons?

I assume yes, but am I also right in thinking that if I wanted to craft magic amour of bows I would have to not only take the appropriate craft skill but also the master craftsman feat for them.

This is how I think it works... but this would mean I would require four feats and (high) ranks in four skills in order to make full use of my feat 'craft magic arms and amour'. I understand that there is an element of 'well non-casters should have a hard time making magic items here' but shouldn't the requirement of a skill (casters use spellcraft - but they are taking that anyway) and an extra feat already cover this?

If I've understood things right here I'm feeling a little shafted... If I haven't understood things right thank you very much for setting me right :).

[Reebo Kesh]

I just asked a Craft Wondrous Item question myself but to answer your question I looked at the prerequistes for an Oathbow

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Oathbow

Looks like all you need is the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, you must be an elf and it costs 13,100 gp. Does that help?

[Bladeace]

Reebo Kesh wrote:

I just asked a Craft Wondrous Item question myself but to answer your question I looked at the prerequistes for an Oathbow

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Oathbow

Looks like all you need is the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, you must be an elf and it costs 13,100 gp. Does that help?

I was just reading the feat Master Craftsman over again and it actually seems like I might be able to use my craft magic arms and amour feat to craft amour.......... and use my craft: weapon skill to do so.

This seems absured though... The way I read the rules seems to back this up, but it also dosen't make any sense that I can craft magic amour with my craft: weapon skill.

[Reebo Kesh]

Bladeace wrote:

Reebo Kesh wrote:

I just asked a Craft Wondrous Item question myself but to answer your question I looked at the prerequistes for an Oathbow

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Oathbow

Looks like all you need is the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, you must be an elf and it costs 13,100 gp. Does that help?

I was just reading the feat Master Craftsman over again and it actually seems like I might be able to use my craft magic arms and amour feat to craft amour.......... and use my craft: weapon skill to do so.

This seems absured though... The way I read the rules seems to back this up, but it also dosen't make any sense that I can craft magic amour with my craft: weapon skill.

You can't, you need the "Craft Magic Arms and Armor" feat. All your Master Craftsman skill does is have the Ranks count as prequiste for the level requirement for the "Craft Magic Arms and Armor" feat and force you to use the particular Craft skill to make the checks. Now I understand that it might not make sense but if you look at the Oathbow prerequistes again, it doesn't say you even need a Craft skill.

[Bladeace]

Reebo Kesh wrote:

You can't, you need the "Craft Magic Arms and Armor" feat. All your Master Craftsman skill does is have the Ranks count as prequiste for the level requirement for the "Craft Magic Arms and Armor" feat and force you to use the particular Craft skill to make the checks. Now I understand that it might not make sense but if you look at the Oathbow prerequistes again, it doesn't say you even need a Craft skill.

But dosen't this still mean that if I have the master craftsman (weaponsmithing) feat and the craft magic arms and amour feat that I can create magic amour using my weapon crafting skill for the roll?

So my master ability to create weapons means I can create magic amour....

Really?

Ruleswise I'm starting to think it works this way. But as for 'realism'? .... how does this work?

[Dragonchess Player]

Bladeace wrote:

I have taken the master craftsman on my rogue (my craft skill is weapons) and I have also just got the 'craft magic arms and amour' feat (just hit level 7.

I just want to check I understand this right, does this allow me to now craft magic weapons?

I assume yes, but am I also right in thinking that if I wanted to craft magic amour of bows I would have to not only take the appropriate craft skill but also the master craftsman feat for them.

This is how I think it works... but this would mean I would require four feats and (high) ranks in four skills in order to make full use of my feat 'craft magic arms and amour'. I understand that there is an element of 'well non-casters should have a hard time making magic items here' but shouldn't the requirement of a skill (casters use spellcraft - but they are taking that anyway) and an extra feat already cover this?

If I've understood things right here I'm feeling a little shafted... If I haven't understood things right thank you very much for setting me right :).

1) Yes. You can now craft magic weapons using your Craft (Weapons) in place of caster level and Spellcraft.

2) Correct. If you wanted to craft magic armor and bows as well, you would need the appropriate Craft skills and Master Craftsman for each skill.

3) Non-casters are much less versatile than casters when making magic items (go figure); you will need three skills (armor, bows, weapons) and four feats to be able to make any magic armor or weapon. The Master Craftsman feat is clear on this point: only items that are made with that particular Craft skill can be made into magic items. On the bright side, crossbows fall under Craft (Weapons), not Craft (Bows); you can still make magical bolts, crossbows, melee, and thrown weapons. So, one additional skill (Craft (Armor)) and one additional feat (Master Craftsman (Craft (Armor))) will get you most of the possible benefit out of Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

[Roaming Shadow]

Characters without spellcaster levels needs to take Master Craftsman and the appropriate item creation feats in order to make magic items. Master Craftsman applies to a specific crafting skill, and allows to to make magical versions of what falls within that skill's perview. Therefore, if you have Master Crafstman for Craft: Weapons, and at 7th level take Craft Magic Arms and Armor, you can only make magical weapon, because you are only a master craftsman of weapons. As has been stated above, if you also wanted to make magic Armor, you'd need to take Master Craftsman for Craft: Armor as well.

Master Craftsman is a narrow feat, allowing the creation of magic items from the selected craft skill, limiting the use of the later acquired Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat. If the item you are trying to create does not use the skill for which you have Master Craftsman, you cannot create it, as you don't use your MC skill "in place of" the needed skill. If your skill does not apply, you can't create it.

For another example, a Master Craftsman of Jewelry would not be able to simply make any Wondrous Item he so desired, for example boots and gloves, as those would require a different craft check.

[LazarX]

Basically the purpose of the Master Craftsman feat was to allow crafting specialists at the pinnacle of their ability to make appropriate magic items.

i.e. a Maser Jeweler would make rings, amulets, broochs etc.

A master Swordsman would make magic swords, most non caster types who have the interest generally are folks focusing on one crafting skill only as they generally don't have the skill points to burn to be a polycrafter.

[Heymitch]

One additional problem with the Master Craftsman feat that probably needs errata is that it lacks this line in it's description:

"Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new Craft skill."

So, as written, someone with Master Craftsman and Craft Magic Arms and Armor could only ever apply the feat to one of: Craft (armor), Craft (bows), or Craft (weapons). You couldn't buy the feat multiple times in order to apply it to multiple skills.

Also, a master jeweler could not create magic rings with this feat, since it cannot be used with Forge Ring, only with Craft Magic Arms & Armor and Craft Wondrous Item. Although, I think it makes perfect sense to apply it to Forge Ring as well.

I think that the feat would work better if it simply allowed you to use any applicable Craft skill with one particular Item Creation feat that you possess. Also, you should be allowed to purchase it several times, to affect other Item Creation Feats. They also need to add other Item Creation feats as possible choices for this feat.

Or, preferably, they need to completely rework the magic item creation rules, which are borked beyond belief.

[Bladeace]

Thanks for the clarification guys. I was going to go into house rule options (I think that this is something I'd like to house rule) but I thought that this probally isn't the thread (because of the subforum it's in).

I've put a new post up over here:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/houseRules/houseruleFeatChange&page=1#1

[Reebo Kesh]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

3) Non-casters are much less versatile than casters when making magic items (go figure); you will need three skills (armor, bows, weapons) and four feats to be able to make any magic armor or weapon. The Master Craftsman feat is clear on this point: only items that are made with that particular Craft skill can be made into magic items. On the bright side, crossbows fall under Craft (Weapons), not Craft (Bows); you can still make magical bolts, crossbows, melee, and thrown weapons. So, one additional skill (Craft (Armor)) and one additional feat (Master Craftsman (Craft (Armor))) will get you most of the possible benefit out of Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

Can you give page reference to this? As mentioned previously under Oathbow there is no mention of requiring any Craft Skill and I'm guessing this is the case for most magic items.

Where is this "you must have appropriate Craft Skill" to craft magic items?

[David Thomassen]

Magic Item Creation "To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information)."
Master Craftsman Feat

Master Craftsman:

Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.

Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.

"You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."

Creating Magic Armour "...(Very end of Section)Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor)."
Craft Weapons ... Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).
Creating Potions ...Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (alchemy)
Creating Rings .... Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (jewelry).
Creating Rods ... Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Craft (weapons).
Creating Scrolls ... Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (calligraphy), or Profession (scribe).
Creating Staves .... Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Profession (woodcutter).
Creating Wands ...Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Profession (woodcutter).
Creating Wondrous Items....Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check

FAQ Update "In addition, you cannot create potions, scrolls, staves, wands, or any other spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item without meeting its prerequisites."

[Reebo Kesh]

David Thomassen wrote:

Magic Item Creation "To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information)."

Master Craftsman Feat ** spoiler omitted ** "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."

Creating Magic Armour "...(Very end of...

So basically if you have ranks in Spellcraft you don't need Ranks in any Craft skills.

Hey Bladeace just get you Rogue to pick up Spellcraft!

[Gilamunsta]

David Thomassen wrote:

Creating Magic Armour "...(Very end of Section)Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor)."
Craft Weapons ... Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).
Creating Potions ...Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (alchemy)
Creating Rings .... Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (jewelry).
Creating Rods ... Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Craft (weapons).
Creating Scrolls ... Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (calligraphy), or Profession (scribe).
Creating Staves .... Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Profession (woodcutter).
Creating Wands ...Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Profession (woodcutter).
Creating Wondrous Items....Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check

Master Craftsman excerpt: Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.

This clearly indicates you can only use Master Craftsman in conjunction with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats, not Brew Potion, Craft/Wands/Rods/Staves, Scribe Scrolls or Forge Rings feats...

[David Thomassen]

Reebo Kesh wanted a link to the skills associated with the crafting of magic items. I agree Gilamunsta that Master Craftsman can only be used to access CMAA & CWI.
Reebo, unfortunately SpellCraft is not a Crafting Skill and thus cannot be used to access the Master Craftsman feat.

[Reebo Kesh]

David Thomassen wrote:

Reebo Kesh wanted a link to the skills associated with the crafting of magic items. I agree Gilamunsta that Master Craftsman can only be used to access CMAA & CWI.

Reebo, unfortunately SpellCraft is not a Crafting Skill and thus cannot be used to access the Master Craftsman feat.

Yes but as you have indicated why bother with Master Craftsman when all you need is Spellcraft and the appropriate Craft Magic Item feat to make magic items?

I say Bladeace should forget Master Craftsman unless he needs it for something else?

[Maezer]

Reebo Kesh wrote:

Yes but as you have indicated why bother with Master Craftsman when all you need is Spellcraft and the appropriate Craft Magic Item feat to make magic items?
I say Bladeace should forget Master Craftsman unless he needs it for something else?

Presumably, you need Master Craftsman to bypass the caster level requirement for the Craft Wondrous Item feat or Craft Arms and Armor feat itself. If you have the required caster level all master craftsman does for is give you +2 to the particular skill.

[David Thomassen]

Reebo, a Rogue cannot get the Craft Feats without first using the Master Crafstman feat to emulate the Caster Level needed to obtain the Feat. And then the Rogue must use the skill that was associated with the Master Crafstman feat in the production of the magic item itself.

Craft Magic Arms and Armour "Caster Level: 5". And no, Spell Like Abilities cannot be substituted for Caster Levels.

[W. John Hare]

I would recommend discussing with your GM.
If you GM doesn't mind the idea of you using Craft (Weapons) to make magic armor or bows then you are golden.
If he doesn't like the idea, then you may need to rework your character a bit so you don't feel like you are being shafted for using 2 feats.

I've seen arguments both for and against making magic items outside the normal craft skill... both have merit depending on how you interpret the way the feats read.

[LazarX]

Reebo Kesh wrote:

David Thomassen wrote:

Magic Item Creation "To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information)."

Master Craftsman Feat ** spoiler omitted ** "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."

Creating Magic Armour "...(Very end of...

So basically if you have ranks in Spellcraft you don't need Ranks in any Craft skills.

Hey Bladeace just get you Rogue to pick up Spellcraft!

You need the craft skills to make the physical form of the item. It's spellcraft you can dispense with.

[Gilamunsta]

Reebo Kesh wrote:

David Thomassen wrote:

Reebo Kesh wanted a link to the skills associated with the crafting of magic items. I agree Gilamunsta that Master Craftsman can only be used to access CMAA & CWI.

Reebo, unfortunately SpellCraft is not a Crafting Skill and thus cannot be used to access the Master Craftsman feat.

Yes but as you have indicated why bother with Master Craftsman when all you need is Spellcraft and the appropriate Craft Magic Item feat to make magic items?

I say Bladeace should forget Master Craftsman unless he needs it for something else?

Pardon the delay in posting, I have intermittent interwebs.

As to why bother? For example, my Samurai Armourer can make make magical armour using the Master Craftsman feat and Craft (Armour) without having to take any levels in any spellcasting class =)
And let me tell you, he makes some odorokubeki armour =)