1.) Allowing characters to take Charisma as a dump stat, but not penalizing them for it - after they use it as a dump stat, they ought to be able to say that their character is attractive and, thereby, gain positive modifiers to social encountersI have no issue with "pretty" low-CHA characters. They may look good, but it does nothing for social encounters (CHA penalties are the mechanic, the looks do nothing for it). Think of the low-CHA pretty character like those pretty-faced classmates who are annoying or have no friends. Picture a young Fran Drescher with the personality of Leo Getz: Pretty, an annoying voice, and the kind of personality that inspires strangulation. Or think of the hottie who sounds as smart as a potato (despite real intelligence) because everything comes out wrong; you just dismiss them out of hand. These are the kinds of people who walk into a room and, despite being good-looking nobody cares. For anyone who thinks with more than their genitals, this person falls under "nice on the eyes, but ... no thanks." Even then, it only applies to others of same/similar species. A pretty face would mean nothing to a Dragon, Manticore or Naga (which you might find yourself negotiating with).
2.) Allowing a Wizard to collect a god-like spell book without having to worry about keeping it safeI got your back on this one. DMs should never meta-game to screw PCs, but if an enemy NPC happens to spy on them (a la stealth or divination) and learn weaknesses, go for it.
3.) Allowing a character to optimize towards big weapons and never have to worry about the down side of when those weapons shouldn't be usable (due to space requirements)Are there mechanics for this already? If not, and you're houseruling up stuff. BE SURE to let the players know BEFORE they make their characters. Don't be a Richard, be a facilitator of good times for all... preferably with some genuine challenges along the way, and let an occasional failure or death fall where it may. But whatever the case, even if a PC dies, try to get the player involved ("here, help me out here; play this villan NPC and try to kill the party." ... or other DM-assistance actions, for example).
Am I simply old school? Does all the passion with which these things are argued influence the game designers? Does it indicate the future direction of the game?
No. It indicates that young people (who tend toward max-maxing) are playing, which is GOOD for the future of gaming. They'll support the gaming companies that produce the games we're all playing.
Messageboards are rarely indicative of "trends". Even if it were, you're worrying yourself about the trends of other people, who you're not even playing with. Instead, try a shrug.
Want to see metagaming at its finest? Ok. You have a big bad evil guy who has his minion [...] Yes, why DIDN'T the badguy just kill one of them?Could be lots of reasons. Could be an LE BBEG who wants to kill the party himself, or just have a fairly aberrant code of conduct (kneecapping is permissible, but assassination is dishonorable). Or, a CE BBEG who wants to convert the party to evil by forcing them to resort to increasingly desperate and ethically-gray acts to defeat him (the Joker option). Or the BBEG could be romantically or sexually attracted to and obsessed with the wizard, trying to get him/her to come to them and "do what they know they want to do anyway" to get the book back (this is a fantastic one to get the players' skin crawling). Or a BBEG that just wants to maximize suffering.
Or it could be a rival party looking to undercut the competition. A BBEG that's not a bad guy at all and just uses ethically grey-to-black actions to achieve their ends, out to keep the party from throwing themselves in the way of whatever greater threat the "BBEG" is after. Or a more neutral-leaning opposed to just plain evil BBEG that wants a party out of the way with a minimum of violence. You have to look at this through an antagonist's viewpoint; the midnight assassin is merely the pragmatic solution, and not every villain need be such, or even out to kill the party. Especially in an urban setting, where murder is messy and attracts a ton more unwanted attention than vandalism or theft (and avoiding unwanted attention is an overwhelming motivation for rogues of all spectra).
It doesn't even have to be "a thief sneaks into the camp in the middle of the night". Perhaps a bard gets the wizard drunk, seduces him/her, and lifts the book on their way out of the inn room after pillow talking the PC to sleep or slipping them a drug. A pickpocket could use sleight of hand to smear paste laced with bookworm eggs inside the wizard's backpack, or a shrunken, scored (to...
99% of the time the bad guy is ok with killing, and the PC's are an obvious thorn in his side, and have killed his employees. Not killing them is just not logical if he wants to succeed, except in corner cases. If he does not kill them all he is doing is temporarily making them weaker so he really not solving anything except getting some lackey to risk his life for nothing.
Could be lots of reasons. Could be an LE BBEG who wants to kill the party himself, or just have a fairly aberrant code of conduct (kneecapping is permissible, but assassination is dishonorable). Or, a CE BBEG who wants to convert the party to evil by forcing them to resort to increasingly desperate and ethically-gray acts to defeat him (the Joker option). Or the BBEG could be romantically or sexually attracted to and obsessed with the wizard, trying to get him/her to come to them and "do what they know they want to do anyway" to get the book back (this is a fantastic one to get the players' skin crawling). Or a BBEG that just wants to maximize suffering.
Or it could be a rival party looking to undercut the competition. A BBEG that's not a bad guy at all and just uses ethically grey-to-black actions to achieve their ends, out to keep the party from throwing themselves in the way of whatever greater threat the "BBEG" is after. Or a more neutral-leaning opposed to just plain evil BBEG that wants a party out of the way with a minimum of violence. You have to look at this through an antagonist's viewpoint; the midnight assassin is merely the pragmatic solution, and not every villain need be such, or even out to kill the party. Especially in an urban setting, where murder is messy and attracts a ton more unwanted attention than vandalism or theft (and avoiding unwanted attention is an overwhelming motivation for rogues of all spectra).
I'm sure if there was a plot specific reason orchestrated to justify it, that's all well and good. However it's not something I would remotely call normal. when you have to be insane (joker), or have some sort of bizarre honor code (LE who won't let underlings kill his enemies but will let them steal from them?), you're getting very specific. Likewise in a city, murder is probably still pretty common, and murdering someone and taking their stuff is far from far-fetched.
It doesn't even have to be "a thief sneaks into the camp in the middle of the night". Perhaps a bard gets the wizard drunk, seduces him/her, and lifts the book on their way out of the inn room after pillow talking the PC to sleep or slipping them a drug. A pickpocket could use sleight of hand to smear paste laced with bookworm eggs inside the wizard's backpack, or a shrunken, scored (to shatter when the shrink wears off) vial of sovereign glue or universal solvent (either one is perfectly capable of destroying a spellbook). There are a lot more subtle, inventive ways to get rid of a spellbook that doesn't reek of GM interference or deus ex machina.
First, that assumes the wizard takes the bait and sleeps with any bard he happens across. Second, that's also a dumb as hell thing for a bard to do, since now the wizard has intimate familiarity with the bard, and now all he has to do is get his hands on a few divination spells and he will track your ass down and turn the whore-bard into a toad or kill them without hope of resurrection (I'm sure one of these fingers of death will stick). So unless you're doing it with a wizard who isn't vengeful, that's a good way to make some enemies with people who are likely to be very powerful.
Likewise, you cannot shrink sovereign glue or universal solvent. The slight of hand option sounds pretty good, but that's still amazingly risky and he could have just as easily just taken the book if he can do that (and assuming the wizard doesn't have a stone of alarm stashed with his book which would cause a ruckus the moment someone slipped their hand inside).
It doesn't even have to be "a thief sneaks into the camp in the middle of the night". Perhaps a bard gets the wizard drunk, seduces him/her, and lifts the book on their way out of the inn room after pillow talking the PC to sleep or slipping them a drug. A pickpocket could use sleight of hand to smear paste laced with bookworm eggs inside the wizard's backpack, or a shrunken, scored (to shatter when the shrink wears off) vial of sovereign glue or universal solvent (either one is perfectly capable of destroying a spellbook). There are a lot more subtle, inventive ways to get rid of a spellbook that doesn't reek of GM interference or deus ex machina.
If you think those ideas don't reek of GM interference or deux ex machina then I don't think we have the common ground for a discussion to take place.
I'm sure if there was a plot specific reason orchestrated to justify it, that's all well and good. However it's not something I would remotely call normal. when you have to be insane (joker), or have some sort of bizarre honor code (LE who won't let underlings kill his enemies but will let them steal from them?), you're getting very specific. Likewise in a city, murder is probably still pretty common, and murdering someone and taking their stuff is far from far-fetched.
And that's exactly it dead-on. You can contrive a situation in which it would happen, but you're always doing just that: going out of your way to make something illogical and implausible make just enough sense that your players probably won't mutiny.
Regarding NPCs vs. Spellbooks - How it's Done
Want a fine, not so contrived example? Here's how to do it.
I think at this point that it should be mentioned that there are other ways to separate a wizard from his spell book other than steal it while he's sleeping.
Also has anyone mentioned that depriving a wizard of his spellbook is an excellent way to slow a party down. If the Badguys goal is simply to have the time to accomplish a task, stealing the book should accomplish that. And sure the wizard will be angry if you steal his book, but less angry then if you kill him.
That's why these sorts of arguments are stupid. Anyone who can reliably steal the wizard's spellbook can take anything else they want and kill the party in the process. Finding the spellbook in other situations is just as stupid, since you can't see what's inside a bag. What's the Perception DC to get X-Ray vision, exactly?
Likewise, the assassination in the night is a real threat, but most foes just aren't going to know where you are at every moment. Scrying can be a method of doing so, but honestly scrying isn't something you can keep up constantly, and if your enemies are using scry & die tactics on you, then you should probably at least be able to afford a simple alarm spell on your camp every night.
These debates do get fairly pointless, but it's more because of contrived silly examples trying to illustrate how silly the issue is. Is sneaking into camp to steal the spellbook necessarily the best way to go about separating a wizard from his spellbook? No. Stealing it from his room at the inn when it is unattended is a far better option.
There are many ways to separate a wizard from his spellbook. Trying to undermine the entire prospect of doing so with illogical examples only works on those individual examples.
How does he get it replaced as cheaply as possible? Answer is, the cheapest way to replace it is to make a backup before he loses his master book.
Actually that's not cheaper, but then stealing the spellbook isn't a relevant quest starter if the Wizard has a back up because you have failed to disable the Wizard at all.
But if he casts them, he can write them into a new spellbook.
If the Fighter gets his weapon destroyed, it's immediately gone.
Then he grabs whatever weapon is lying around and he;s right back up.
When a wizard loses his spellbook, he retains the spells he has memorized
Which he can't use if he wanted to replace his spellbook.
and the feats he has still apply to them.
Which are wholly useless if he doesn't or can't cast spells.
If a fighter loses his weapon, he can pick up a stick, but his feats (such as weapon spec) will likely not apply.
Assuming that (a) he has weapon specific feats.
Which is still wholly irrelevant because that adds what? +2 to hit and +4 to damage by level 12? Try again.
Actually, targeting the spellbook is BETTER than killing the wizard. Wizards can often be rezzed easier than a spellbook can be recovered.
Regarding NPCs vs. Spellbooks - How it's Done
Want a fine, not so contrived example? Here's how to do it.
Step 1: Become an enemy of the PCs.
Step 2: Survive long enough to start up your new hobby - taking out the party.
Step 3: Realize that the PCs are too tough to take using direct methods (often via the loss of many minions).
Step 4: Begin gathering information - talk to NPCs they meet, tell your minions to escape & report, spy from a distance, or simply hire someone to be the PCs' friend for awhile (Bluff = "My son/friend/nephew is among them; keep him safe for awhile, and see if there's anything that his friends could use some help with. Here are some coins, enough for a month's service. Catch up with me then and we'll talk about your travels."), or send more minions and scry on the PCs' MO/tactics.
Step 5: Discover the lack of protection of spellbook/familiar.
Step 6: Conclude that since the PCs' lives are too difficult a target, make the spellbook/familiar a target - a weakened wizard means a weakened enemy.
Step 7+: Plot and conspire to destroy the spellbook; invisible pickpockets who discreetly remove the book during a diversionary minion attack... make attacks on wizard's haversack... stun & grab & escape... Absolutely
Now, if a GM is goin to treat the spellbook as off limits, then he should tell the player that he's going to be playing softball like this.
When playing a wizard, I enjoy figuring out creative ways to protect my spellbook. But, if a GM is going to play softball and, thus, run his game differently than the expected, he should let me know so that I can redirect my wealth into making the most powerful character at the table even more powerful.
Define "expected."
Why is anyone going to expect that NPCs will suddenly start rifling through players' packs to find all their books, then sort through those to find the spellbook and then steal or sunder it?
Also has anyone mentioned that depriving a wizard of his spellbook is an excellent way to slow a party down. If the Badguys goal is simply to have the time to accomplish a task, stealing the book should accomplish that. And sure the wizard will be angry if you steal his book, but less angry then if you kill him.
I'm going to be fair and say that Ashiel makes a good point about the scenario. Killing the party generally makes all these thins come true. That being said I do think there are plenty of scenarios where that's not always the case.
Why is anyone going to expect that NPCs will suddenly start rifling through players' packs to find all their books, then sort through those to find the spellbook and then steal...
That's an inventive way of trying to restrict a discussion to the realms of the absurd. This looks like you're restricting your own creativity, pushing that same lack of creativity on the rest of us, and using that to make some sort of point. Open your miiiiind.
Why is anyone going to expect that NPCs will suddenly start rifling through players' packs to find all their books, then sort through those to find the spellbook and then steal...That's an inventive way of trying to restrict a discussion to the realms of the absurd. This looks like you're restricting your own creativity, pushing that same lack of creativity on the rest of us, and using that to make some sort of point. Open your miiiiind.
It's only the realms of the absurd if the discussion itself is absurd.
Define "expected."
Why is anyone going to expect that NPCs will suddenly start rifling through players' packs to find all their books, then sort through those to find the spellbook and then steal or sunder it?
Cause PC's expect NPC's to behave like PC's? Why wouldn't someone want to steal an immensely expensive item?
It's only the realms of the absurd if the discussion itself is absurd.Why is anyone going to expect that NPCs will suddenly start rifling through players' packs to find all their books, then sort through those to find the spellbook and then steal...That's an inventive way of trying to restrict a discussion to the realms of the absurd. This looks like you're restricting your own creativity, pushing that same lack of creativity on the rest of us, and using that to make some sort of point. Open your miiiiind.
Ah, so it's ...
simplya
matter
of
basic
ignorance?
O I C.
Allow me to provide information for your education.
Imagine taking or destroying the whole haversack...
Cause PC's expect NPC's to behave like PC's? Why wouldn't someone want to steal an immensely expensive item?
Define "expected."
Why is anyone going to expect that NPCs will suddenly start rifling through players' packs to find all their books, then sort through those to find the spellbook and then steal or sunder it?
???
Do PCs act that way?
How often do the PCs sneak into the mega-evil hideout and steal HIS stuff without forcing a confrontation?
Cause PC's expect NPC's to behave like PC's? Why wouldn't someone want to steal an immensely expensive item?
Define "expected."
Why is anyone going to expect that NPCs will suddenly start rifling through players' packs to find all their books, then sort through those to find the spellbook and then steal or sunder it????
Do PCs act that way?
How often do the PCs sneak into the mega-evil hideout and steal HIS stuff without forcing a confrontation?
*raises hand*
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[These debates do get fairly pointless, but it's more because of contrived silly examples trying to illustrate how silly the issue is. Is sneaking into camp to steal the spellbook necessarily the best way to go about separating a wizard from his spellbook? No. Stealing it from his room at the inn when it is unattended is a far better option.
In over 20 years of playing D&D, I have literally never seen a wizard leave their spellbook unattended in a room in an inn.
I've seen all kinds of crazy crap! I've seen an adventure in which every party member but one was an intelligent magic item worn by the aforementioned one. I've seen players go multiple sessions of a combat-heavy module while resolving all conflicts non-violently. I've seen all-caster parties and no-caster parties and parties of all the same race. I've seen parties in which every player had some kind of woefully crippled challenge character.
But I have never, never, never seen a wizard just leave their spellbook somewhere and walk off.
So.. yeah, I think that's incredibly contrived.
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Cause PC's expect NPC's to behave like PC's? Why wouldn't someone want to steal an immensely expensive item?
Because, given the way the rules are, it's almost always easier to kill the owner, then take it.
Just as PCs tend to kill all the goblins and take their stuff rather than construct elaborate heist-movie plots to spirit away that one 100 gp ruby the chieftain wears around his neck.
Cause PC's expect NPC's to behave like PC's? Why wouldn't someone want to steal an immensely expensive item?
Define "expected."
Why is anyone going to expect that NPCs will suddenly start rifling through players' packs to find all their books, then sort through those to find the spellbook and then steal or sunder it????
Do PCs act that way?
How often do the PCs sneak into the mega-evil hideout and steal HIS stuff without forcing a confrontation?
I mean bags on the PCs' persons. "Quick, it's night. Go find the Wizard's spellbook!"
And why would the PCs expect the NPCs to attack their luggage? I mean really, who expects that? Does anyone? Why?
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Cause PC's expect NPC's to behave like PC's? Why wouldn't someone want to steal an immensely expensive item?
Define "expected."
Why is anyone going to expect that NPCs will suddenly start rifling through players' packs to find all their books, then sort through those to find the spellbook and then steal or sunder it????
Do PCs act that way?
How often do the PCs sneak into the mega-evil hideout and steal HIS stuff without forcing a confrontation?
I mean bags on the PCs' persons. "Quick, it's night. Go find the Wizard's spellbook!"
And why would the PCs expect the NPCs to attack their luggage? I mean really, who expects that? Does anyone? Why?
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What I learned from this thread:
Only PCs are allowed to come up with creative solutions. If an NPC ever does something unexpected, then the GM is a bad bad evil man who should be slapped by the wizard player, and forced to apologize for not just saying "You win D&D!" the second someone choses to make a wizard.
Cause PC's expect NPC's to behave like PC's? Why wouldn't someone want to steal an immensely expensive item?
Define "expected."
Why is anyone going to expect that NPCs will suddenly start rifling through players' packs to find all their books, then sort through those to find the spellbook and then steal or sunder it????
Do PCs act that way?
How often do the PCs sneak into the mega-evil hideout and steal HIS stuff without forcing a confrontation?
I mean bags on the PCs' persons. "Quick, it's night. Go find the Wizard's spellbook!"
And why would the PCs expect the NPCs to attack their luggage? I mean really, who expects that? Does anyone? Why?
Have you heard of the new fad amongst the young folk. It's called purse snatching. I think they do it for the thrill, but some studies have come out that kids think people sometimes carry valuable things in bags. If you check out some of the fringe newspapers in your area they may carry stories about it. Most of our knowledge of it is second hand, but we are discovering more every day.
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In over 20 years of playing D&D, I have literally never seen a wizard leave their spellbook unattended in a room in an inn.
I dunno if I can recall it ever happening in an inn, but it's pretty frequent that they leave all but a traveling spellbook at their base of operations. After all, by the time you get to even the lower middle levels, your spellbook is almost certainly 3+ tomes. In such cases, a traveling spellbook exceedingly likely, especially given that on this board it seems to be standard practice to dump a wizard's strength down to pretty low levels (many builds I've seen here would probably suffer encumbrance penalties if their robes happened to get wet).
And why would the PCs expect the NPCs to attack their luggage? I mean really, who expects that? Does anyone? Why?If your PCs can expect everything that any NPC ever does, you're playing some pretty crappy generic boring games there, Cartie.
What the PCs can or can't expect is wholly irrelevant to the discussion. Why would the PCs expect the NPCs to attack their luggage? That is the question.
Do the NPCs often attack the bags you are carrying? I don't mean steal them; I mean attack them.
Or rather do YOU have your NPCs attack the bags the PCs are carrying? Why?
Have you heard of the new fad amongst the young folk. It's called purse snatching. I think they do it for the thrill, but some studies have come out that kids think people sometimes carry valuable things in bags. If you check out some of the fringe newspapers in your area they may carry stories about it. Most of our knowledge of it is second hand, but we are discovering more every day.Cause PC's expect NPC's to behave like PC's? Why wouldn't someone want to steal an immensely expensive item?
Define "expected."
Why is anyone going to expect that NPCs will suddenly start rifling through players' packs to find all their books, then sort through those to find the spellbook and then steal or sunder it????
Do PCs act that way?
How often do the PCs sneak into the mega-evil hideout and steal HIS stuff without forcing a confrontation?
I mean bags on the PCs' persons. "Quick, it's night. Go find the Wizard's spellbook!"
And why would the PCs expect the NPCs to attack their luggage? I mean really, who expects that? Does anyone? Why?
I don't want to ruin your day, but this is D&D. There is a difference, definable and significant, between stealing something and attacking it. I am asking why the NPCs are attacking the PCs' bags.
stuffSorry, I didn't realize the point you were making is "if my wizard doesn't do any reasonable risk mitigation, he can find himself substantially weakened. It's up to him, not the GM, to do that risk mitigation, by protecting his spellbook, making copies and protecting those, etc."
I'm glad you are all so good at being completely oblivious to the topic at hand. It makes it much easier for you all to generate strawmen to refute my argument against a statement made by a COMPLETELY different person than yourself who I am replying to SPECIFICALLY using the SPECIFIC DETAILS in their post to make my argument.
Someone said that stealing a spellbook would be the start of a quest to get it back. EVERYONE has failed to answer WHY anyone would go on such a quest if the Wizard has a backup spellbook or 3. No, they have solely nagged on my point that the Wizard would be unable to contribute to said quest because OF COURSE the Wizard could contribute - he would have a backup spellbook otherwise he would be a bad Wizard!
No he bloody wouldn't because otherwise THE QUEST WOULD NOT HAPPEN.
Let's not even get into the patently absurd assertions on how to differentiate between different casters that were quite laughable.
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3.) Allowing a character to optimize towards big weapons and never have to worry about the down side of when those weapons shouldn't be usable (due to space requirements)Are there mechanics for this already? If not, and you're houseruling up stuff. BE SURE to let the players know BEFORE they make their characters. Don't be a Richard, be a facilitator of good...
At some point (and this will absolutely enrage Cartie), common sense should be allowed to triumph over the obsessive need to codify every situation that can arise in the game. If you're character is squeezing through a small tunnel, and a comes upon a kobold, you shouldn't have to point out to any reasonable player that since they were worried about possibly getting stuck one round ago, using their greatsword might not be a viable option. It's for this reason that every single martial character I've ever played (and practically every other character as well) has carried a dagger.
Have you heard of the new fad amongst the young folk. It's called purse snatching. I think they do it for the thrill, but some studies have come out that kids think people sometimes carry valuable things in bags. If you check out some of the fringe newspapers in your area they may carry stories about it. Most of our knowledge of it is second hand, but we are discovering more every day.
-Which is why we suggest using a BACKPACK or handy haversack, not a man purse or CarriageTM Bag of holding. If you try to snatch a backpack off of someone you're more likely to haul them with it than to pry them out of it.
We're not against clever NPC's. We're against god mode sues, which is what you'd have to be to pull off any plot like this without opposed rolls. How many attempts by the PC's to sneak in somewhere, smash, grab and run out have EVER gone according to plan and not resulted in combat? Why should the NPC's plans work any better? What people are suggesting basically has the DM playing the NPC's AND the PC's in order to reach his desired outcome.
I don't want to ruin your day, but this is D&D. There is a difference, definable and significant, between stealing something and attacking it. I am asking why the NPCs are attacking the PCs' bags.When faced with an enemy too big to face head on, destroying the enemy's support can weaken the enemy to increase your odds of victory.
Please explain, in detail, why you think that is logical support for the PCs' baggage being assaulted directly by the enemy.
you shouldn't have to point out to any reasonable player that since they were worried about possibly getting stuck one round ago, using their greatsword might not be a viable option
Yes, you have to, because the rules say he attacks with the greatsword at -4. Players shouldn't have to ask in advance "hey, are you going to follow the rules here?" That should be a given.
At some point (and this will absolutely enrage Cartie), common sense should be allowed to triumph over the obsessive need to codify every situation that can arise in the game. If you're character is squeezing through a small tunnel, and a comes upon a kobold, you shouldn't have to point out to any reasonable player that since they were worried about possibly getting stuck one round ago, using their greatsword might not be a viable option.3.) Allowing a character to optimize towards big weapons and never have to worry about the down side of when those weapons shouldn't be usable (due to space requirements)Are there mechanics for this already? If not, and you're houseruling up stuff. BE SURE to let the players know BEFORE they make their characters. Don't be a Richard, be a facilitator of good...
I doubt you realize, or can even accept, how ironic your argument is. You are asserting that "common sense" (whatever THAT is) should triumph over a need to "codify every situation that can arise in the game" right before you argue that new rules be inserted into said game to cover exceedingly specific situations. Yeah, totally not an obsessive need to codify rules for every little situation that may come up.
In over 20 years of playing D&D, I have literally never seen a wizard leave their spellbook unattended in a room in an inn.I've seen all kinds of crazy crap! I've seen an adventure in which every party member but one was an intelligent magic item worn by the aforementioned one. I've seen players go multiple sessions of a combat-heavy module while resolving all conflicts non-violently. I've seen all-caster parties and no-caster parties and parties of all the same race. I've seen parties in which every player had some kind of woefully crippled challenge character.
But I have never, never, never seen a wizard just leave their spellbook somewhere and walk off.
So.. yeah, I think that's incredibly contrived.
So you're saying the wizard takes a pack containing his spellbook (which get bigger and may require multiple volumes as he levels):
in the inn common room for dinner
to the latrine to take a dump
to the brothel for a little fun
on every shopping trip he goes on
to the temple for whatever holy days he observes
to meetings with the local authorities
Or, I suppose, he does none of these things while living out of an inn? Does he ever leave the spellbook at home?
For a wizard with a portable hole or other large enough extra-dimensional space, these things tend to make more sense. But then, that's the wizard who has taken more than a minimal precaution in protecting his spellbook in the first place.
A contrived example? Not so much in my experience.
in the inn common room for dinner
-I read while eating
to the latrine to take a dump
-When does your concentration get better than when on the throne?
to the brothel for a little fun
-You've clearly never tried the more creative uses for enlarge person
on every shopping trip he goes on
-If you need to double check the components.
to the temple for whatever holy days he observes
- Definitely a time you'll need something to read.
to meetings with the local authorities
Ditto. Local politics are zzzzz.
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That's why these sorts of arguments are stupid. Anyone who can reliably steal the wizard's spellbook can take anything else they want and kill the party in the process. Finding the spellbook in other situations is just as stupid, since you can't see what's inside a bag. What's the Perception DC to get X-Ray vision, exactly?
Likewise, the assassination in the night is a real threat, but most foes just aren't going to know where you are at every moment. Scrying can be a method of doing so, but honestly scrying isn't something you can keep up constantly, and if your enemies are using scry & die tactics on you, then you should probably at least be able to afford a simple alarm spell on your camp every night.
However, arguing that an enemy would just sneak into their camp and steal their spellbook is stupid; since if they can already do that the party is dead anyway.
Rather than fighting the strawmen scenarios, let’s produce a few realistic ones off the top of my head.
1. You let the players find or even make a unique spell (this occurs in at least one AP I can think of with a spell every high level wizard would want). Or they are just a wizard with lots of spells. Either way BBEG Wizard hears your wizard has a spell in his book that he wants to learn and sends minions for the book so he can learn the spell. Quest ensues.
2. Wizard keeps his spellbook in his bag. Local cutpurse lives up to his name and steals bag, not knowing what is inside but figuring it is valuable. Then, realizing what he has tries to fence it to BBEG. Quest ensues.
3. Party is captured and all items are taken from party, including weapons and spellbook (you may remember this from the opening to one of the APs…)
4. Wizard escapes by running away but is forced to leave his equipment behind for one reason or another (perhaps because of a night ambush, perhaps he is turned into a newt…who knows…)
That is off the top of my head, and didn’t include any of the lovely off the wall strawmen that people in the “Don’t take my book camp” keep bringing up.
As has been pointed out many, many times, basic spellbooks can be purchased from any magic shop in the same way basic magic weapons can be purchased from any magic shop. You won’t have all your uber-spells, but you’ll have what is in the book and whatever you can write down that you memorized.
And to duck all the strawmen and stay on the topic of what our side has been saying since the beginning (rather than the strawmen created that none of us have said) if a player takes reasonable precautions (keep a backup, use spells to keep it safe, etc…), they won’t have to worry about losing a spellbook.
But much like a Lich should probably keep his Phylactery safe since he is vulnerable without it, a wizard should take some basic precautions to make sure they aren’t without a spellbook.
And players who don’t want to spend the resources to take reasonable precautions deserve what they get.
A spellbook is an object, not a skill. And an object can be taken/destroyed/damaged, etc...if you don't take care of it.
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If you're of the conception the spellbook is sacrosanct and any attempt to steal, destroy, or damage it is automatically GM interference/deus ex machina by merit of attacking a character's weakness, then no we cannot have a meaningful conversation.
I'm not of the opinion that you can't attack a character's weakness.
I am of the opinion that:
1) It's lame if what takes out a wizard's spellbook is something that punishes a new player for being a new player and wouldn't phase an experienced player at all (there's enough of a learning curve in the class.
2) It's lame if an enemy, someone who legitimately wants the wizard dead, takes the spellbook rather than killing them in a situation in which killing them is at least as easy if not much easier.
3) It's lame if what takes out the spellbook is an unwinnable encounter or GM fiat (e.g., your level 2 party is attacked by 20 stone giants that all fight to subdue for some reason, then take the spellbook and leave you alive.)
4) There are very, very, very few "spellbook danger" situations that don't qualify as one of the above.
Enemy cleric casting hold person on the fighter? Fine. Four rogues with daggers jump out and doubly-flank the fighter only to all start to very slowly try to sunder his falchion instead of sneak attacking him to death? Lame. And most anti-spellbook encounters I've ever seen are, basically, the equivalent of that.
Have you heard of the new fad amongst the young folk. It's called purse snatching. I think they do it for the thrill, but some studies have come out that kids think people sometimes carry valuable things in bags. If you check out some of the fringe newspapers in your area they may carry stories about it. Most of our knowledge of it is second hand, but we are discovering more every day.
You do realize Heward Handysack is a backpack not a purse. You are thinking of the bag of holding.
Wrong goalposts. Wrong fad.
How often is backpack snatching happen compared to purse snatching?
Hint: Purse are on shoulder/arm, backpacks are more secure (straps).
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Have you heard of the new fad amongst the young folk. It's called purse snatching. I think they do it for the thrill, but some studies have come out that kids think people sometimes carry valuable things in bags. If you check out some of the fringe newspapers in your area they may carry stories about it. Most of our knowledge of it is second hand, but we are discovering more every day.
You do realize Heward Handysack is a backpack not a purse. You are thinking of the bag of holding.
Wrong goalposts. Wrong fad.
How often is backpack snatching happen compared to purse snatching?
Hint: Purse are on shoulder/arm, backpacks are more secure (straps).
Where do you put your backpack when you sit down? Or when you sleep?
The fighter has to don armor when attacked at night or suffer penalties, does the wizard sleep with a back pack on?
Not to mention that people do sometimes steal backpacks. In the wrong part of town a party could get mugged.
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So you're saying the wizard takes a pack containing his spellbook (which get bigger and may require multiple volumes as he levels):
in the inn common room for dinner
to the latrine to take a dump
to the brothel for a little fun
on every shopping trip he goes on
to the temple for whatever holy days he observes
to meetings with the local authorities
Yes. Further, I think this is extremely realistic.
Imagine I came to you and gave you a book, and I said to you: as long as you read from this book every morning, you will have amazing and virtually limitless powers of which most can only dream. You will consider the laws of physics to be mere suggestions to be obeyed by lesser mortals. But if you ever lose or misplace this book, this awesome power will be lost as well.
You put this to the test and discover it to be true. Would you ever let that book out of your sight? I wouldn't. I'd give up swimming. If I was invited to something where I couldn't bring the book, I wouldn't go. How much moreso, if you were a person who did dangerous and stupid things for a living and you relied on those powers for your daily survival?
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I doubt you realize, or can even accept, how ironic your argument is. You are asserting that "common sense" (whatever THAT is) should triumph over a need to "codify every situation that can arise in the game" right before you argue that new rules be inserted into said game to cover exceedingly specific situations. Yeah, totally not an obsessive need to codify rules for every little situation that may come up.
Rule 0 already exists. And it's really the only thing that can really cover something like this adequately. Yeah, I suppose you COULD devote a Core Rules-sized hardcover to all the different degrees of confined space and it's effect on using every weapon in the game, but I have the feeling that such a tome would be a colossal failure.