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Good luck doing that. I presume as a strict, anti-PC, anti-player GM, you SPECIFICALLY require your Wizard players to list out which spells and in what amount he prepares his spells each day (which even at the best of times CAN'T be EVERY spell in the spellbook).
Holy f@~+ing s+#$. No wonder you think wizards are god. You just trampled all the f+** over the g$%!~&n sorcerer. Apparently in Cartfinder, wizards get to cast their spells spontaneously, like a sorcerer, but without the balancing factor of having a limit on spells known. Jesus f#@~, I knew you blatantly ignore SOME of the wizard's inherent weaknesses, but I didn't know you took it so far that they completely and totally make the sorcerer into a g$&$+#n joke. S&~~, while you're at it, why don't you just completely remove the need for the spellbook completely, too? And maybe bump all their saving throws up to good. And allow them to wear armor. Maybe for their first level ability, they could gain every feat in the game.
Utterly f@&*ing g!*#&!n ridiculous.
Except from YOUR ridiculous reply, you won't take the time to see what options WERE available for the wizard. You hear "You don't start this adventure with your spellbook immediately available" and you're out the door.
At what point do they get them back?
Question one.
I proposed a question-based answer of "Never?" If that, criteria is met, then YES, I quite as a Wizard because either (a) I don't get MY spellbook back and you have FUBAR'd my entire character concept or (b) I don't get ANY spellbook back before starting aventuring and I might as well be a blind Fighter.Perhaps your character would just give up and let himself be killed rather than suffer an inconvenience. Most wouldn't.
The inconvenience of what? Being unable to defend himself from harm? Being unable to fight back against attackers? Being unable to do Wizardry? Yeah, I rather die trying now rather than as a defenseless rat later.
See, to me, the game is about adventure. Not throwing money at problems until they go away.
It seems to me that instead to you the game is an experiment where you torment the characters to see how they respond to different, crippling stimuli.
Also, HOW is the Wizard adventuring without the spellbook in the first place? We are back to the FIRST question.
So that they can steal it.
I don't want to ruin your day, but this is D&D. There is a difference, definable and significant, between stealing something and attacking it. I am asking why the NPCs are attacking the PCs' bags.
I don't know what part of "attack" vs "steal" you don't understand. In D&D you can attack OR steal something. If you attack something, you intend to DESTROY it. You cannot steal something that has ceased to be because you attacked it.
One character sunders the bag, one character grabs it
How, it's sundered. The bag has ceased to be.
No, in factuality (fact + actuality), it is simply a collection of spells. Anything else is fluff created by the player. Anything that is fluff NOT created by the player is jerkass DM fiating.From the PFSRD entry on spellbooks:
"Each spellbook or formula book is a unique reflection of the personality and capabilities of its creator. Many of these tomes contain more than just spells, such as notes on the caster’s other research, personal diaries, naturalist sketches, or even political treatises. Some contain preparation rituals, each of which grants a boon—or sometimes a hindrance—to spellcasters who use the book to prepare their spells."
"Many," "some," and "sometimes." Not "all" and "always." And don't get me started on the dev's approach to flavor. It makes as little sense 90% of the time as the people on this forum espousing nonsense. Why buy a 15gp book designed specifically to hold spells to write journal entries in or nature sketches? Why not buy a JOURNAL for a fraction of the cost? Wizards apparently like to piss away their money.
That's not being a hardass anti-PC GM.
No, I said you are a hardass anti-PC GM because that's how you have shown yourself to act through your last post, not because you adhere to the rules of the game.
Being a hardass anti-PC GM is using a Wizard's spellbook to manage to MIRACULOUS be able to counter him spell for spell despite the fact the NPC can't possibly know WHAT the Wizard has prepared any given day.
Magic circles against evil and a couple protection versus evil,
Hope you know Magic Circle Against Good instead. Most PCs aren't Evil. Actually, you have to know SPECIFICALLY the alignment of the PC to know WHICH Protection Against to cast.
banishment,
Better have more of those than he has Summons. Which is technically impossible.
dispel magic
DUH, it's a Wizard battle
prepped summon monsters I-IX for direct counterspelling
Congratulations, you have managed to spend your entire ability to cast stymieing a single avenue of attack.
Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft to see if Mordrin has any particular favorite energy types judging from his spellbook.
Fireball clearly uses Fire. Maybe he likes Fire.
Energy resistance against his favored type if he has one
Better get multiple - he has Dispel Magic too.
prep multiples of candidate favored spells (an admixed fireball is still a fireball and is countered by fireball)
Congratulations, you have managed to spend your entire ability to cast stymieing a single avenue of attack.
So that they can steal it.
I don't want to ruin your day, but this is D&D. There is a difference, definable and significant, between stealing something and attacking it. I am asking why the NPCs are attacking the PCs' bags.I don't know what part of "attack" vs "steal" you don't understand. In D&D you can attack OR steal something. If you attack something, you intend to DESTROY it. You cannot steal something that has ceased to be because you attacked it.
One character sunders the bag, one character grabs itHow, it's sundered. The bag has ceased to be.
Wow. I am totally boarding this train to crazy-town. So clearly, when you hit something with a dagger, it disintegrates, but that's ok. The bag vanishes into nothingness, from my dagger of antimater, by the things inside it are unharmed, miraculously. So then my partner, who delayed, grabs the books, and runs.
So I have proved that you can both attack something, and steal it. Did I blow your mind?
No wonder you think wizards are god.
Do you read palms too? I mean your oracular abilities are astounding.
Or thieves slash the bag and take the item while the wizard is out and about in crowds, or scam hustle...
No one says they have to 'attack' the bag, theres plenty of theft going on as we speak around the world with people just cutting the bag whilst on escalators, trains, on the bus.
Hence the proliferation of anti-slash backpacks now on sale in Europe.
Then there are just classic conmen and scammers.
of course, I expect some cheezy handwave of 'oh those people weren't paying attention, in real life I'm a highly trained Ninja and that would never happen' and manly guffaws, buuuuut thats probably what all the victims say too.
The opportunities to be robbed are endless, and sure you have some higher level wizards, but you have high level thieves too, just looking for an easy mark. They would know all about Wizards capabilities, and weak points.
Wow. I am totally boarding this train to crazy-town. So clearly, when you hit something with a dagger, it disintegrates, but that's ok. The bag vanishes into nothingness, from my dagger of antimater, by the things inside it are unharmed, miraculously. So then my partner, who delayed, grabs the books, and runs.So that they can steal it.
I don't want to ruin your day, but this is D&D. There is a difference, definable and significant, between stealing something and attacking it. I am asking why the NPCs are attacking the PCs' bags.I don't know what part of "attack" vs "steal" you don't understand. In D&D you can attack OR steal something. If you attack something, you intend to DESTROY it. You cannot steal something that has ceased to be because you attacked it.
One character sunders the bag, one character grabs itHow, it's sundered. The bag has ceased to be.
Genius. Why doesn't everyone do this? "Does the bag guy have a bag? I attack it. Rogue, you run over there and grab all his stuff after I destroy the bag."
How do you know he has a book? How do you know where he keeps it? Why are you attack his luggage while he attacks you?So I have proved that you can both attack something, and steal it. Did I blow your mind?
No. You can steal things you don't destroy. You are NOT stealing the bag. Nice try though. I give you an F for effort.
Genius. Why doesn't everyone do this? "Does the bag guy have a bag? I attack it. Rogue, you run over there and grab all his stuff after I destroy the bag."
How do you know he has a book? How do you know where he keeps it? Why are you attack his luggage while he attacks you?
If only there were ways to find out if someone was a wizard. If only rogues didn't have some way to gather information about people. It's a shame people wander through the d&d-verse clueless about the things around them, unable to understand cause and effect. Clearly there is no way to find out someone is a wizard. It's unpossible.
No. You can steal things you don't destroy. You are NOT stealing the bag. Nice try though. I give you an F for effort.
If only there were some way to repair a destroyed object. I should totally make up a houserule for that, maybe I will make it a cantrip, and I'll call it something ironic like mend.
Without checking the rules, what happens when you rip open something that's bigger on the inside than it is on the outside?
I'm not sure, and most rogues probably aren't either. Thats a knowledge arcana check and probably a DM call at least. Most likely the object stops working, so what you're left with is a ruined backpack with a slashed bottom that doesn't work and is still attached to the wizard. Or it opens up a rift in the very fabric of reality and sucks EVERYONE In the area into it.
You would not have a players plan work if it required this many judgement calls from you, the DM. its not fair to have all your judgement calls slant in favor of the NPC's just so that your brilliant plan works.
If a bag of holding is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag immediately ruptures and is ruined, and all contents are lost forever.
Which is actually worse for the wizard then it getting stolen. His spell book is lost forever. It's a bummer for the thieves as well.
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I think it's a little too much not to expect the hyper-intellient monsters NOT to, if given warning, target the things that make the PCs uber. It's not like in PF the idea of a Wizards book or a Fighters magic sword is a huge surprise. I feel that having these events occur make the world (whatever campaign you are playing) far more believable. I'm always amazed when players think that monsters only exist once placed on the battle-mat and their only thoughts are how to move about the battle-mat.
So I'm happy to steal, burn, sunder, disjunct, dispel, break, mash, destroy, etc if the foe the PC's face would logically do this and has the tools. Players want to turn their brains off and just switch on when the battle-mat comes out - not my problem. I view magic items as tools, the only real thing that matters is not being dead.
My players learn, sometimes the hard way, that in my campaigns the world has events occuring that happen without them looking.
S.
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-Which is why we suggest using a BACKPACK or handy haversack, not a man purse or CarriageTM Bag of holding. If you try to snatch a backpack off of someone you're more likely to haul them with it than to pry them out of it.A tiny bit of research will show you that a haversack essentially is a man-purse.
-A little more will show you its a backpack.
A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary. It is constructed of finely tanned leather, and the straps have brass hardware and buckles. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a bag of holding and can actually hold material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large central portion of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds.
It was hewards handy haversack. Apparently they used haversack all for the alliterative appeal.
Haversack (n): a bag similar to a knapsack but worn over one shoulder.
So a 1-sided backpack; a man-purse.
And I'm saying that the words "backpack" and "haversack" are not necessarily mutually exclusive. They can coexist in describing the wondrous item.
It's a 1-shoulder backpack, and it's susceptible to purse-snatching.
Which piece of flavor text trumps the other? Also a bag of holding is clearly a cloth sack, which has no straps.
And I'm saying that the words "backpack" and "haversack" are not necessarily mutually exclusive. They can coexist in describing the wondrous item.
It's a 1-shoulder backpack, and it's susceptible to purse-snatching.
Good luck snatching it if I'm wearing it across my torso (as in the strap is going "\" instead of "|") since you have to get it out from under my arms and over my head. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as well secured.
...and one quick slash of a dagger and you have lost it.
Also if your Wizard took Wis as his dumpstat then maybe he isn't streetWISE enough to think about basic anti-theft measures.
Remember, people learning to secure their valueables better is only a recent phenomenon (all those ads about stopping thieves and pickpockets) and even still today it is common as dirt. have fun visiting Rome, for example.
similarly even a 1st level Wizard is a tasty target, a very soft person with bugger all melee capability carrying high value items... just screams 'blindside me with a billyclub'.
When you sleep or sitdown with the backpack off you are normally in a secure area. Most common thugs are not higher than a CR 2. Jumping adventurers is just not a good idea.Not to mention that most orc warriors or hobgoblin soldiers who are born and bred for killtastic thuggery and combat are CR 1/3 and 1/2 respectively. I'd seriously have to question some things when the average street thug is CR 2. Unless of course you're using the premade NPCs in the Gamemastery Guide, 'cause those are just stupid. Those NPCs make you wonder why the barkeeper and his serving girls didn't pound the crap out of anything resembling a goblin in Rise of the Runelords #1, and easily make you wonder why PCs do anything when CR 3-4 commoners are running around a dime a dozen.
LOL. I never even noticed that until now. Common thugs should not be rivaling trained military combatants.
PS:I was going by the GMG when I made that post.
Good luck snatching it if I'm wearing it across my torso (as in the strap is going "\" instead of "|") since you have to get it out from under my arms and over my head. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as well secured.
Wishing me luck? Thanks!
But you sure told me. I guess no bags are ever stolen, from anybody, ever, thanks to you strapping it \ instead of |.I guess wizards never have to protect their spellbooks now. My world has changed.
And I'm saying that the words "backpack" and "haversack" are not necessarily mutually exclusive. They can coexist in describing the wondrous item.
It's a 1-shoulder backpack, and it's susceptible to purse-snatching.
In the game a backpack has two straps. In the game the haversack is a backpack. Game definitions over rule real life ones since that is how they are used in the game.
As an example the Gorgon from mythological history is different than the D&D/Pathfinder monster and should be more like the Medusa.
I think this thread has made its point. Locking.