Dear anime fans.
Even though I'm pointing at Anime here, this also applies to many movies, books and so on, of multiple genres.
It's often pure fail. Here's why.
Anime, movies, books and so on are not made in consideration of game rules or game balance. They're not supposed to, either. Alot of people don't get this and try to port it over anyway, and one of many things happens ...
Now, this isn't 100%. Some shows, anime, books, etc. fit quite well and can be ported over in a clean and balanced and accurate manner... but this is extremely rare. If they are, chances are good that these are actually anime based on a game.
That said, I implore those who consider doing so... don't embarrass yourself. Or if you're going to port it, do option #1 (balance) and then just rename it so as to avoid the inevitable facepalm-fest.
Your chum,
Malignor.
You've missed a couple of possibilities.
- The game is primarily driven by story and character rather than as a tactical simulation. The "brokenness" is unimportant, because the fact that the protagonists can do amazing/awesome things is taken as a given and/or is part of the premise underlying the story. The GM takes it into account, and the players have a great deal of fun.
- The game uses a higher-level story mechanic where doing superhuman things is a balanced part of the system -- for instance, a system where acheiving goals is mechanized, but the specific method for acheiving goals is entirely narrated fluff. Because the game is balanced on a higher level, the fact that the characters are doing the same broken things as their movie/comic counterparts doesn't break the system. [Examples -- Primetime Adventures, Polaris]
What you're saying is therefore limited to games that are generally simulationist and where balance is important. Even Pathfinder, while traditionally run under these two assumptions, can be run without them. The game just becomes more about telling a fun story and less about "defeating combat challenges".
The game can still have challenges and conflict, by the way -- just not necessarily on the "level" you're used to.
I have BESM. It's a horribly incomplete system, and rightfully so. Trying to encompass anime is like trying to encompass hollywood.
BESM should be broken down into multiple genres.
I mean, even comparing DBZ to Naruto ... DBZ ended up with interplanetary annihilation as collateral damage ("oops I missed. There goes that planet over there.") While Naruto "only" has 400' tall animal-beasts clearing acres of forest in their fights. How can you even put them in the same system with any coherence?
You've missed a couple of possibilities.I account for this with...
an embarrassing knock-off which only the worst fanboys would appreciate or consider playing.
You'd have to be a dedicated fanboy to play it. Someone from the outside looking in would be looking at it with different eyes... the port would be totally lost on him/her. They'd only see a bunch of arbitrary names and labels, mixed with the most broken game mechanics in the world.
OR the system would be balanced or use existing game mechanics, but not even model the source material accurately. It's so inaccurate, may as well just take the game as-is and relabel stuff.
I have BESM. It's a horribly incomplete system, and rightfully so. Trying to encompass anime is like trying to encompass hollywood.
BESM should be broken down into multiple genres.
I mean, even comparing DBZ to Naruto ... DBZ ended up with interplanetary annihilation as collateral damage ("oops I missed. There goes that planet over there.") While Naruto "only" has 400' tall animal-beasts clearing acres of forest in their fights. How can you even put them in the same system with any coherence?
You seem to be under the impression that those can't be worked into the same system. Its not actually hard to have that, and still be able to handle a conservative, realistic world in the same system. The Warhammer Fantasy system can do this fairly trivially, with just renaming of skills and adjusting the GM description of events. Some slight tweaking of the HP mechanics may also be in order, but the basic mechanics would stay solid.
The Pathfinder system is robust enough to handle most anime, within the power level that the system is designed to use. You can easily house rule it to expand the power level higher, up to a point. You can also add flavor to much of the combat to describe things in a more cinematic way so that players get more, or less, of the feel of being in an anime. Is it so much to ask that in a system where level 5 characters are World Class Athletes, that exponentially stronger characters (lvl 15+) should not be able to accomplish more amasing things?
You've missed a couple of possibilities.I account for this with...an embarrassing knock-off which only the worst fanboys would appreciate or consider playing.
I notice you failed to address either of my points directly.
Please be so kind as to acknowledge that the problem you address is limited to tactical simulations. Other sorts of RPGs can accomodate this with no difficulty.
And, no, a game where realistic combat simulation is unimportant is not "an embarrassing knock-off". It's a different kind of game.
Although, since it's one that's usually pretty meaningless to try to minmax, you might not be equipped to appreciate it.
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Please be so kind as to acknowledge that the problem you address is limited to tactical simulations. Other sorts of RPGs can accomodate this with no difficulty.
And, no, a game where realistic combat simulation is unimportant is not "an embarrassing knock-off". It's a different kind of game.
If PF, 3.x, Palladium, MERP, Cyberpunk or Rolemaster are supposed to be realistic tactical simulations, then they're not doing a great job.
If they're non-realistic, escapist tactical simulations, then we have found great success.Anime are blatantly non-realistic and escapist, but most (well, shounen, anyway) are on a totally different tangent than any game system I've seen.
Even or BESM is so vague as to merit throwing your dice away and just playing make believe.
HKAT is as close as I've seen for creating mechanics which allow for the kind of gaming which some anime would require (such as Black Lagoon, or Death Note).
In fact, you're reinforcing my very sentiments, saying that game systems like PF are simply not fit for the sandbox kind of gameplay which would be required to model anime. Thx.
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Anime are blatantly non-realistic and escapist, but most (well, shounen, anyway) are on a totally different tangent than any game system I've seen.
Again, this appears to be because you evaluate game systems according to your requirements for a tactical simulation that requires balanced play.
Neither of these are actually requirements for an RPG. You just have no experience with any other sort of RPG.
Again, you can very easily have a balanced system that is not tactical, or a tactical system where balance is unimportant, and simulate cinematic events in a perfectly reasonable way.
In fact, you're reinforcing my very sentiments, saying that game systems like PF are simply not fit for the sandbox kind of gameplay which would be required to model anime.
If that's what your "sentiments" were, then that's what you should have said.
PF is presented as, and written to be played as, a tactical combat simulation game where balance is important, because challenges are made to be faced on the level of tactical combat. And I would agree with you that attempting to adapt many cinematic characters for this style of play is likely to have the problems you indicate.
But what you're missing is that many, many games are not played this way. The constraints that you see as essential to even playing a game aren't actually necessary, even within the context of using Pathfinder rules.
To be blunt, you are entirely wrong. It's as though you grew up only playing baseball, and now find yourself condemning someone who brings a soccer ball to the field because you don't see how this giant ball could possibly fit into a glove or be properly hit with a bat. You need to take a step back and understand there are other ways to play.
Sorry, I thought the URL gave away the context of my rant.
I'm not spitting on anime gaming in general.
I'm ranting on trying to fit anime into PF, or other (as you call them) tactical simulationist games, and thinking it's a great idea worth formalizing and sharing.
I didn't realize you were trying to challenge me be going off-topic.
In fact, you're reinforcing my very sentiments, saying that game systems like PF are simply not fit for the sandbox kind of gameplay which would be required to model anime. Thx.
Hasn't Paizo released a fairly successful adventure path based around sandbox style play? Also why do you need sandbox style play to model anime? And what even defines anime?
Sorry, I thought the URL gave away the context of my rant.
And I thought the level I at which I was challenging your rant would be clear to anyone who read my post.
I still think it is, but you're too married to the "rightness" of your idea to see it.
Quite right.
I find that creating material for public consumption should allow for the public mindset, not requiring a specific one which disregards the spirit of the system, for which the material is intended.
Keep it at the table, or in the circle of friends who "get it".
Audience.
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Dear Malignor,
Was a single thread by Intelligence Check yesterday really deserving of two different rant threads about why this was the worst thing ever?
Or was there just nothing else on the internet today?
Yours,
Trinam
What you're saying is basically tautological. That there are cinematic abilities and characters that cannot be properly modeled in a balanced tactical game is well-understood, and has been part of the simulationist/gamist discussion in RPG theory for many years.
That attempting to include cinematic abilities or characters in a balanced simulationist game either a) reduces them to non-cinematic or b) brakes either the "balanced" or "simulationist" aspect of the game is also well-understood. In fact, once you define "cinematic", "balanced", and "simulationist", it's entirely obvious that this would have to be so.
Again, the key is to note that a game that does (b) can still be a fun game that is far from worthless. And, in fact, it can still be a balanced game, just at a level above tactical simulation.
And, as I mentioned in my first post, even PF can be played this way. You just need to understand that the result is different than what most people are trying to get out of PF.
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Did anybody bring up yet the Book of Weaboo Fightan Wuxia Magic Profanation of Pure, Cherished Pseudo-medieval Fantasy also known as Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords?
What about those darn intelligent magic swords that have super powers you can unlock by getting them on your side?
That there are cinematic abilities and characters that cannot be properly modeled in a balanced tactical game is well-understood, and has been part of the simulationist/gamist discussion in RPG theory for many years.
Try HKAT. It's brilliant in how it allows for cinematic mechanics. Every time I've played HKAT it was a LOL-fest. Awesome system.
LINKAs I said, this would work well with most of the anime out there that have a modern/gunplay feel... like Cowboy Bebop or Black Lagoon.
Dear Malignor,
Was a single thread by Intelligence Check yesterday really deserving of two different rant threads about why this was the worst thing ever?
Yes, yes it was.
It's not rage, so much as a chuckling facepalm. I see it so often that I felt compelled to put my opinions up on the board, in hopes that, maybe, just maybe, I stop even 1 person from repeating what I see as an all-too-common mistake.
Can you leap from speeding gunboat to speeding gunboat while performing gunkata with grenade launchers and rocking out to an iPod?
As I said, this would work well with most of the anime out there that have a modern/gunplay feel... like Cowboy Bebop or Black Lagoon.
Absolutely! There are examples which include:
You actually get rewarded for doing crazy stunts. You get "star power" which you use to "buy" script rewrites, movie roles and similar.
I digress. This is a PF board and here I am plugging HKAT.
I said it before and I will say it again. Media is media. Anything new can be considered anime becase as you said it anime is a very encompasing field. So it sounds like you are just calling it anime just be cause you dont like specific new ideas. Anime has even done a very good DnD show a few times so doesnt that make all DnD an anime game?
In the end all media was based off other media. DnD was based loosely on Lore of the Rings. So as it has evolved it only makes sense that new media will continue to influne this game.
So play what you like sorry if you dont like the new things. Maybe you should see about getting a copy of chainmail. You might like that better.
PS sorry about the spelling phone has no spell check.
@Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus
I'm actually following 2-5 currently airing anime series at any given time, plus manga.
I have no issues with "new things."
Nice name.
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@Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus
I'm actually following 2-5 currently airing anime series at any given time, plus manga.
I have no issues with "new things."
Nice name.
But you seem to have a problem with new things in your PF. Which was my point.
An incorrect generalization on your part.
An incorrect generalization on your part.
A lot of those going around these days.
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Well in highschool we had a number of anime inspired rules (particularly classes) that worked extremely well at high levels. The casters were warping time and space as normal, and the martial characters were ziping around with 'superspeed' and flying about cutting things up. If anything accepting the mindset of many animes would be GOOD for the game. Because it would allow martial characters to compete at higher levels, since they would no longer be tied to what is 'realistic' which chains them to a wall of mediocrity while casters mock them casting wishes, summoning evil tentacles and teleporting away while cackling at the poor fighter and his pointy bit of metal.
Did anybody bring up yet the Book of Weaboo Fightan Wuxia Magic Profanation of Pure, Cherished Pseudo-medieval Fantasy also known as Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords?What about those darn intelligent magic swords that have super powers you can unlock by getting them on your side?
You know, we had one of those in my d&d game 15 years ago. It was really cool. None of us had even heard of anime at that point.
When i see threads like this I check for three words in the OP:
"In my opinion.."
If I don't see these, then I know it's going to be yet another "badwrongfun" thread.
When i see threads like this I check for three words in the OP:
"In my opinion.."
Well instead I used...
Rantoften
isn't 100%
Some
extremely rare
chances are
Plus this thread is a roundabout poll to gauge support/disagreement, so the "O-word" would inspire fewer responses from the dissenters; some write me off instead.
An incorrect generalization on your part.
How so? How is my statement incorrect? You have yet to provide a supporting statement or evidence to your statement. Just because you say it is incorrect doesn't make it so.
Sorry, I missed this gem.
WarhammerThis actually sounds interesting. I've never played Warhammer (the vast # of miniatures I see at most gaming tables scare my wallet), but it wouldn't surprise me if it allowed for such scales of gameplay. Plus the setting designs look very flashy, and suggest some compatibility.
The Pathfinder system is robust enough
I disagree. The basic framework of D20 can work, sometimes and for some material, but PF itself only rarely.
Now, your post was addressed partly to my DBZ comment. DBZ is not a linear scale like D20 is... it's logarithmic. How many HP does a planet have? Maybe tens of trillions, to be conservative? Using the D20 framework for DBZ is as compatible as trying to ride a bicycle to the moon; it takes ALOT of rework, to the point where it's unrecognizable.
Sorry, I missed this gem.WarhammerThis actually sounds interesting. I've never played Warhammer (the vast # of miniatures I see at most gaming tables scare my wallet), but it wouldn't surprise me if it allowed for such scales of gameplay. Plus the setting designs look very flashy, and suggest some compatibility.The Pathfinder system is robust enoughI disagree. The basic framework of D20 can work, sometimes and for some material, but PF itself only rarely.
Now, your post was addressed partly to my DBZ comment. DBZ is not a linear scale like D20 is... it's logarithmic. How many HP does a planet have? Maybe tens of trillions, to be conservative? Using the D20 framework for DBZ is as compatible as trying to ride a bicycle to the moon; it takes ALOT of rework, to the point where it's unrecognizable.
Martial progress is linear in the core game, caster progress is not. Not by a long shot. And while you cant go to the scale of later dbz episodes, you can get the feel of it very easily. Martial characters can fly at level 5, short range teleport as a swift action at 7, short range teleport as a free action at 11, and you are already halfway there. The framework for all the techniques is already there in tome of battle from 3.5, a little flavor change, maybe a power boost and you are ready for dbz pathfinder.
Does a barbarian sundering a spell fall under 'anime influenced'?
Sorry, I missed this gem.WarhammerThis actually sounds interesting. I've never played Warhammer (the vast # of miniatures I see at most gaming tables scare my wallet), but it wouldn't surprise me if it allowed for such scales of gameplay. Plus the setting designs look very flashy, and suggest some compatibility.The Pathfinder system is robust enoughI disagree. The basic framework of D20 can work, sometimes and for some material, but PF itself only rarely.
I was refering to the Warhammer Fantasy RPG, not the table-top minis game. They are set in the same univers, but have completely different costs to play. It uses custom dice which you get more of depending on the types of actions. Each die is weighted with varying numbers of successes and failures, as well as good and bad luck. If success is > failure, you succeed by a certain margin. But then the GM applies an adjustment based off of the luck. Success + bad luck might be "you cleave him through the shoulder, killing him but your sword gets lodged in his ribcage and you have to spend next round getting it out if you want it back" - totally arbitrated by the GM. The DBZ example of missing and blowing up a plannet would be failure + bad luck.
Now, your post was addressed partly to my DBZ comment. DBZ is not a linear scale like D20 is... it's logarithmic. How many HP does a planet have? Maybe tens of trillions, to be conservative? Using the D20 framework for DBZ is as compatible as trying to ride a bicycle to the moon; it takes ALOT of rework, to the point where it's unrecognizable.
This is why I said withing a certain power scale. Not every anime is the same. Kenshin fits right into standard pathfider rules ballance wise, perhaps with a few new abilities to account for the style of the series, which promotes fast mobile combat and single strikes. Bleach (from what I have seen of it) can be handled with a little more modification with some higher level modifications. Sura no Toki fits as a fairly low level campaign, with a few characters in the 5-10 range beign epic fighters and without magic.
DBZ is on a completely different power scale, which is something Pathfinder is not set up to handle. But it is also on a completely different power scale than most other anime though too. Pathfinder doesn't scale well into epic level (20+)play, so when trying to model beyond epic scale fiction its no suprise it falls short.
@Fozbek
Keep up with the Bleach manga - Getsuga Tensho?
Naruto: Pain's "Divine Push"?
The more popular shonen are wiping out cities, or making mile-wide beams of devastation, which make epic 3.5 look like a mouse tooting in a hurricane.
An incorrect generalization on your part.How so? How is my statement incorrect? You have yet to provide a supporting statement or evidence to your statement. Just because you say it is incorrect doesn't make it so.
Your statement isn't incorrect, because you used the word "seem", suggesting it's how you see it; you invoked relativity. The generalization is incorrect: That "I don't like new things".
If that statement was extracted from (what can be paraphrased as)
"if you're going to port anime to PF, don't expect it to work very well, and don't expect it to be anything short of embarrassing"
and somehow extract that I dislike new things... well that's an incorrect generalization.
I have no issue with new things. My group creates new setting elements, new settings, and houserules all the time.
You argue funny.
Personally, in regards to the OP i would have to say that i disagree and have seen more then a few anime/manga style additions incorporated successfully. Figured i would post a reply since you stated above you were trying to gauge support/disagreement.
@Fozbek
Keep up with the Bleach manga - Getsuga Tensho?
Naruto: Pain's "Divine Push"?The more popular shonen are wiping out cities, or making mile-wide beams of devastation, which make epic 3.5 look like a mouse tooting in a hurricane.
To me, this is more high level play not scaling well to match its source material (in fantasy liturature casters can do this too, once you get to that level of power. Its hard to find epic level spellcasters in lituature though) than it is the source material getting out of hand. WHy shouldn't someone who can re-write the fabric of reality be able to destroy cities once they are that level of power?
To me, this is more high level play not scaling well to match its source material (in fantasy liturature casters can do this too, once you get to that level of power. Its hard to find epic level spellcasters in lituature though) than it is the source material getting out of hand. WHy shouldn't someone who can re-write the fabric of reality be able to destroy cities once they are that level of power?
I like you.
More to the point, PF is (to use a friend's term) 'contained'. Most shounen type anime/manga, and lots of movies and books, scale beyond what a contained system (like PF/D20) can handle. That's fine, especially since it's just one author, and not a group of people who may or may not be interested in powergaming and exploitation.
It's simply that PF/D20 and the source material are too incompatible. They can be made compatible, by mutilating PF beyond recognition, or by disregarding huge chunks of the source material. Either way, it's the whole bicycle-to-the-moon problem: Sure you can do it, but with the mods required, the end result isn't a bicycle anymore.
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Acrobatics is clearly influenced by Naruto and thus, should be removed from play. I am yet to see any evidence that Western medieval times had heard of acrobatics, or developed acrobatics lore to the point that PF feels is 'common practice'.
Jokes aside, I think all the examples brought up thus far were attributed to 3.5, and Pathfinder has so far dodged this bullet (in a very anime fashion, I might add). Everything except for the categorization of the Nodachi, at least. That's genuinely strange. The mistakes made by the Book of Nine Swords aren't around here.
Now if the samurai was written to be like Rurouni Kenshin, then we might have had problems. But it's been handled realistically. Almost too realistically. I would have loved an iaijutsu death attack but instead we got Banners and Lords.
You know, an anime style campaign using straight Pathfinder rules wouldn't be that difficult now that I think about it. After all, the starting age for a Pathfinder character by RAW is 15 +1d4, giving you a range of 16-19, and that could easily be houseruled down a bit. After all, one of the most popular conceits in anime is that the characters are the guardians of some ancient fighting style/magic tradition that's wildly superior to modern methods.
So instead of your Monk, Ninja, Wizard, Paladin, etc...being sent on a quest to storm the nearest dungeon, they're kids trained in these ancient secret fighting arts and sent to be new students at a modern High School to help protect the mystic relic buried deep beneath it.
PC's have to deal with evil demonic creatures trying to infiltrate, challengers from rival high schools, minions of the math teacher who's secretly a worshiper of the Old Ones, and homework. All while keeping the normal students and faculty (low level commoners and experts) from finding out about he "hidden world".
Or something else. There are plenty of manga/anime out there where the characters could be simulated as Pathfinder PC's. Ikkitousen, Ranma 1/2, MxO, Historys Strongest Disciple, etc....
If you want to emulate a specific anime/manga then Pathfinder/D&D is a poor choice, outside of a few series that are based on the game to start with, because Pathfinder/D&D simply has too many assumptions built into it to make it well suited to modeling a specific universe that isn't Pathfinder/D&D. However, if you're not trying to emulate a specific series, there isn't any reason that you bring an anime feel into your game. Adding anime to Pathfinder/D&D is infinitely doable as series like Record of Lodoss War, Slayers, et c. so ably demonstrate. Pathfinder/D&D only works for games that fall into a fairly narrow range of assumptions, if you want to work outside those assumptions you either need something that is generic (Pathfinder/D&D certainly isn't), or you need something built specifically to the assumptions you are trying to model.
You know, an anime style campaign using straight Pathfinder rules wouldn't be that difficult now that I think about it. After all, the starting age for a Pathfinder character by RAW is 15 +1d4, giving you a range of 16-19, and that could easily be houseruled down a bit. After all, one of the most popular conceits in anime is that the characters are the guardians of some ancient fighting style/magic tradition that's wildly superior to modern methods.
So instead of your Monk, Ninja, Wizard, Paladin, etc...being sent on a quest to storm the nearest dungeon, they're kids trained in these ancient secret fighting arts and sent to be new students at a modern High School to help protect the mystic relic buried deep beneath it.
PC's have to deal with evil demonic creatures trying to infiltrate, challengers from rival high schools, minions of the math teacher who's secretly a worshiper of the Old Ones, and homework. All while keeping the normal students and faculty (low level commoners and experts) from finding out about he "hidden world".
Or something else. There are plenty of manga/anime out there where the characters could be simulated as Pathfinder PC's. Ikkitousen, Ranma 1/2, MxO, Historys Strongest Disciple, etc....
I'd play this as a mini campaign. hahahaha.
Hiya
I have BESM. It's a horribly incomplete system, and rightfully so. Trying to encompass anime is like trying to encompass hollywood.
BESM should be broken down into multiple genres.
I mean, even comparing DBZ to Naruto ... DBZ ended up with interplanetary annihilation as collateral damage ("oops I missed. There goes that planet over there.") While Naruto "only" has 400' tall animal-beasts clearing acres of forest in their fights. How can you even put them in the same system with any coherence?
World of Synnibarr.
Yeah, I went there.
And yeah, it'd work perfectly fine. Kinda scary, really.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
PS: Yeah, I ran a campaign in that system...for a whole month, IIRC (proably a record of some sort). ...I still think it was fun...totally worth the d100 SAN loss, IMHO. ;)