
Elias Alexander |

I’m sick of colour coded dragons, I’m sick of dragons who’s sole defining feature is alignment with an environment type. The dragon that lives by the water must have powers relating to the water itself, rather than abilities that would help with it survive and fight in a semi-aquatic home. I’m tired of players knowing what to expect with just the smallest glance at a dragon’s sourcebook. Dragons that are red have fire and fire based abilities, dragons that live in cold climates have ice related abilities, etcetera . Last time I checked, dragons are their own creature type, not a sub-breed of elementals, so logically, why would they have abilities so closely tied to the terrain or elemental type. Plenty of monsters can have elemental affinity, or elemental attacks without basing their whole existence around them, showing the same level of creativity usually reserved for kid’s shows and videogames from budget videogames.
Take Hydras for instance: Large, lizardlike, something nasty in their bite and blood that fits with both the mythology/the area that the creature lives in, and a mechanic that spices up the combat encounter.
The Primal Dragons from Bestiary 2 are a step in the right direction, but they still come across as too focused in some cases. Compare the magma dragon in the 2nd bestiary to the red dragon in the first. Both have a few unique abilities dealing with the fact that they’re obviously volcanic inspired creatures, one able to melt rocks, and the other breathing actual molten magma, and having a couple of abilities dealing with that. Other abilities, like the Red dragons being able to reposition the effects of fire spells seem silly to me, and just seem to tie into the narrow focus that we’ve applied to some of the most iconic creatures of Fantasy lore.
Part of the problem I think Is all the power potential that’s tied up with arcane spellcasting. I know in 3.0, dragons were closely tied with the magical powers of sorcerers, but entwining the concept of “ dragon” and the idea of “magic” too closely is what led (in my opinion) to all the super-saturation of dragons in the later 3.5 products. You have to admit. there were more than a handful of draconic player races and classes, and enough dragon variants and knockoffs that you could run an entire short adventure with them, even more so when you’re a monster book collector like me and you get into 3rd party stuff.
Dragons with spells have always irked me, I can understand that a dragon should be a match for an entire party, but allowing a high HD dragon to cast spells just like a sorcerer just seems like throwing all the eggs in one basket. I want a dragon to act like a dragon during combat, not just a sorcerer with high AC and a massive pool of hitpoints. Spellcasting is a system that’s designed to work on it’s own, or for particular “ caster” role monsters, like the naga. Having such large spellcasting capability not only distracts from a dragon’s role in combat, but also takes up power potential that could be used to supplement the dragon’s natural abilities.
Here’s my Solution, making up a “ build your own dragon” system. With physical abilities acting a lot like an eidolon, and special abilities working much like an oracle’s mystery( selecting 1 special ability per point of CR, with higher abilities unlocked at higher HD.) This would allow you to make as physically diverse a dragon as you wish, Then slap on set of abilities suitable for whatever flavour fits.
So then, here’s why I brought this up. Do you think I should do this? It’d be a big project and my friend and I ( who are already trying to get into the RPG publishing game with OGL content) are already kinda swamped. Do you think there needs to be a system like this in place? And if so, is there anything you think it should include?

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I did something like what you're talking about as far as a "build your own" system in Book of Drakes. Granted, it's not for true dragons, doesn't deal with age groups, and caps (currently) at Large size, but it's very versatile and has been well-received.

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Very insightful stuff!
I'd be cautious, though in changing something as intrinsic as 'dragons have themes'. I understand that this isn't your strict complaint, but it's definitely the source of your woes.
Something like Adam's work might fit better into the framework. So, not so much as dragons changed, but an alternative to them.
Otherwise, yes, go man go! Keep fleshing this out. I'd love to see where it leads.

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Sigh...
Chimera
Dragon Turtles
Faerie Dragons
Hydras
Linnorms
Psuedodragons
Tatzlwyrms
Wyverns
Aren't there enough dragon varieties to satisfy your needs. How about Half-Dragons? Just choose the kind of monster you'd like and apply a Half-Dragon template. Class levels are nice too. Who told you you should use things directly from the Bestiary? That's preposterous! It's exactly what the players expect.
Honestly, I get where you are coming from. I myself dislike the whole demon-devil symetry thing, as much as I dislike the chromatic-metallic symetry thing. It's a D&D thing. As a GM you can feel free to change any monster you want. (Like alignment. Your players will never see the fallen angel coming. Actually, they will. They just won't anticipate it's sneak attack)

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I did something like what you're talking about as far as a "build your own" system in Book of Drakes. Granted, it's not for true dragons, doesn't deal with age groups, and caps (currently) at Large size, but it's very versatile and has been well-received.
You were the one who made "Lego Drakes"? +1!

Kolokotroni |

I think you are looking at 2 completely different issues here. I can get on board with your thoughts of non-cookie cutter/color coded dragons. But it has nothing to do with their connection to magic.
Dragons are by definition magical creatures. Not just in dnd/pathfinder, but in fantasy lore across the board. Lots of dragons = lots of magic, few dragons, little magic. Thats why dragons cast spells. They are directly tied to it not just in pathfinder and its predecessors but in most of fantasy.
I also dont understand how allowing a dragon to cast spells is throwing your eggs in one basket. They are still powerful combat creatures that can rip apart level appropriate players with a full attack. Magic just gives them added flexibility. Its actually spreading things out, not putting things in a single basket. You can very easily use the dragon's magic to supplement its natural abilities (which I assume you to mean it's combat/flight abilities), it just depends on what spells you use. Fire sheild/energy resistance can help protect it from cold damage, haste can let it hit harder, shield can add to its already solid ac etc. And ofcourse you are not limited the spells listed in the book, you can obviously change those out for other spells of that level. There is literally no option in combat or out of combat that cannot be enhanced by SOME spell on the sorceror/wizard list.
I think what you are actually looking for is essencially a terasque with wings. And you can beef up a wyvrn for that sort of thing.
As for the build your own dragon idea, it has merit, but it would need ALOT of playtesting, and alot of careful thought to keep things in order. Its a complicated system that is easy to screw up building even when the system itself works pretty well (think of all the complaint threads about the eidolon where it has turned out the eidolon's build was actually not allowed within the rules). You would have to be REALLY careful not to create a party wipe machine.

Stabbington P. Carvesworthy |
Just to add my own 2 cents to the conversation, dragons are comparatively poor spellcasters. Yes, they have spells. Yes, they have usually have decent charisma scores. That being said, they generally can't get spell DCs nearly as high as the DC for their Frightful Presence ability or their breath weapon. Add to those the raw devastation of a dragon's full attack, and it makes sense to me that a dragon will use its spells for either combat support (buff/control) or as a last resort.
This isn't to say that dragon's can't be competent spellcasters, only that they usually have far better options than a standard action spent on a spell.

Wise Owl |

This isn't really going to be helpfull, but I ran a game once in which I completely keposhed the regular 'Colour-Coded' Dragon concept and replaced it with... well basically every Dragon was a unique creature.
In the world I create 'Dragons' were essential entities generated by the very Universe, sort of 'what happens when Magic and Flesh get together over cocktails'. Dragons birthed other dragons, but very rarely, and each dragon was a reflection of itself, disconnected from it's parent.
I can't remember the exact stats and such I used, but each dragon had colourful names "Taltax, the Lord of Fury, whose Breath extinguishes all flames, hoarder of Diamonds and Laughter, etc.etc.etc." In a way Dragons in this campaign became almost mythic, and indeed rarely served as straight up monsters, but a variety of campaign purposes.
Your complaint actually is kidn of a core complaint to elements that have been in D&D for ages, the 'multiple creatures types reflecting elements or terrain types' has been there forever, and not just with Dragons, but with Giants, Oozes, Hags, Elves and host of other creatures.

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This isn't really going to be helpfull, but I ran a game once in which I completely keposhed the regular 'Colour-Coded' Dragon concept and replaced it with... well basically every Dragon was a unique creature.
I read advice years and years ago that 'rule #1' in creating a lasting, awesome campaign was to never let the party see a dragon until the end. I've mostly followed that advice, and my dragons would be rare enough to support this approach. I may have to steal it.

daken201 |
I remember a game I was running once. The party was bad at hearing me describe a monster and saying ahh! its vulnerable to fire!. Meta-gaming at its best. So one session i had them go to the aid of a small village. the people where under the attack of a white dragon. it would come down and take the animals, destroy the buildings and such.
Well they of course loaded up on fire spells and protection from cold and all sorts of anti-cold devices and spells.
long story short.......fireball does nothing to an albino red dragon smart enough not to display its fires to the public....
just cause they are collor coded doesnt meen they will always be so..

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I remember a game I was running once. The party was bad at hearing me describe a monster and saying ahh! its vulnerable to fire!. Meta-gaming at its best. So one session i had them go to the aid of a small village. the people where under the attack of a white dragon. it would come down and take the animals, destroy the buildings and such.
Well they of course loaded up on fire spells and protection from cold and all sorts of anti-cold devices and spells.
long story short.......fireball does nothing to an albino red dragon smart enough not to display its fires to the public....
just cause they are collor coded doesnt meen they will always be so..
I almost thought this was going to be a ''Wight Dragon'' story. Then again, Undead red dragon or albino red dragon, it still is kinda similar.

Bwang |

Follow the Wise Owl advive. Make each Dragon unique.
My last color coded Dragon was in '77. Since then, if my dragon shows up, he might be a straight, outathebook, photocopy, but my players expect me to jazz him up. 'Expect' being the key word. The last 'black' dragon I ran was tweeked into a Wyrm with swimming instead of flight and a noxious aura/cloud instead of fore leg attacks. May have been a bit understrength. He was a blast!