Every dm I ever played with somehow hated the fly spell. This spell a caster can get at level 5-7, was always banned, or made sure in such a way that getting it was impossible. I'm sick of it, but I have no idea how to explain to these DMs and future DMs otherwise that will actually work. You would think if it was so broken, the creators won't have put it in....
My favorite example, our party was stranded and lost in an unfamiliar forest. "I cast mass fly on everyone". Look of horror on the DM face, ok you guys start flying for hours and see nothing but forest, your spell fades. "We rest and try it again". You are captured in the night and taken to a prison! Paraphrased of course. Apparently he wanted us to do survive checks and knowledge nature to teach us a lesson about not having someone with those skills in our group.
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Every dm I ever played with somehow hated the fly spell. This spell and caster can get at level 5-7, was always banned, or made sure in such a way that getting it was impossible. I'm sick of it, but I have no idea how to explain to these DMs and future DMs otherwise that will actually work. You would think if it was so broken, the creators won't have put it in....
My favorite example, our party was stranded and lost in an unfamiliar forest. "I cast mass fly on everyone". Look of horror on the DM face, ok you guys start flying for hours and see nothing but forest, your spell fades. "We rest and try it again". You are captured in the night and taken to a prison! Paraphrased of course. Apparently he wanted us to do survive checks and knowledge nature to teach us a lesson about not having someone with those skills in our group.
Well fly only lasts for minutes per level so it's not much of a long distance travel spell, that's a higher level spell (overland flight at 5th level).
Fly is more of a tactical spell for combat, or for short distance movement. Not sure why anyone would ban it... maybe because they don't know it only lasts 5 minutes when you get it?
sign me up for a GM that hates that early access to fly.
The problem is that you loose a lot of challenge-possibilities.
I mean imagine the rogue who puts all his skill-points into climb, and 5 levels later the wizards flies past him and gives him the finger.
On a similar note, slippers of spiderclimb or teleportation also candidates for later access in my game.
But a Flying carpet at later levels is pretty niftly somehow.
I understand the point of view of the wizard, but they shouldn't laugh at skillpoints. And yes, I know that if I weren't so lazy I could come up with encounters that aren't solved by fly spells.
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I am a DM who loves fly. I actually run around encouraging other players in my game to be air wizards. I blame lazy DMs who are afraid of the fantastic for hating fly.
Its actually remarkably easy to create enviorments that restrict flight. Rooms can be filled with a latice of metal, and simple vats of acid should be waterfall-like cascades moving being pushed from pipe to pipe. Go ahead and fill lava tubes with high wind conditions and embrace the fantastic.
Though it is valid that the skills system is basicly broken.
I agree completly with that logic, so if the wizard prefers the fireball, he won't miss the fly spell.
the only thing I do is push wizards who try to make the rogue unemployed, more useful to society.
And it's kind of obvious to present "climb-challenges" in 6 minutes intervals to 5th level wizard.
I tend to use Fly very sparingly with my wizard, and he's an effing Air Elemental wizard. There are plenty of ways to counter a caster using fly: air currents, low ceilings, archers, enemy casters, and enemies who can fly all come to mind. The moment your caster is above the fray is the moment that everyone on the battlefield can see him- which isn't exactly great for a squishy. It's also worth noting that fly is basically just a waste of a spell slot if your DM doesn't rely on climb/balance/jump challenges and you play it safe like the flimsy 1d6 hit die character you are.
I am about to give my players each a nerfed ring of Fly: duration = 1/2 HD +Cha bonus per day. It is also cursed, cannot be removed.
I'm looking forward to the challenge of having them fly about, and the higher level encounters that I can then bring to them.
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I love what Monte Cook said at a seminar at GenCon a few years ago. Instead of restricting what the players can do, try making challenges that REQUIRE them to use their abilities. That way the players feel good that they can use them, and the GM feels good that he doesn't have to worry about them being used at more unexpected times.
Can they fly? make the enemy castle a floating one that they have to fly to, then they get to make the spell useful, and you get to keep it out of the way of the challenges where you don't want them to fly.
I can see it either way, but I would be fairly comfortable banning or making it higher level spells if that is the flavor of the campaign I want. Generally I like to tie down flavor to anything that makes a good story in a book, utilitarian magic often ruins that.
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You can fly for a few minutes at a sucky airspeed.
How is this overpowered again?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fly
60'/round, or 10'second.
1MPH = 1.44FPS
10'/Second = 7MPH!
Thats right, you are BURNING UP THE SKY at 7MPH!
At 5th level you'd manage to fly the unthinkable distance of 3000 feet, or about two thirds of a mile - I hope that included your flight back.
Double speed, even triple speed is no biggie (by the way, you can't Run).
Heck,
I've had campaigns with half-dragon half-giants (who get wings at 1st class level), and never had problems with it. Some of this is duplicated, but...
- No such thing as stealthing while flying (short of invisibility)
- High Winds
- Underground Ruins
- Flying Predators
- Wyverns & young Dragons (I know, flying predators, but still, they're freaking draconics!)
- ROCS (I know, flying predator, but still, it's a freaking ROC!)
- Magic Missile Barrage (for low flying creatures)
- Massed Arrow Barrage (for high flying creatures)
- Ballista Target Practice (For really high flying creatures near cities)
- Other Flying NPCs
- Casters with long range spells
And that's just off the top of my head. Yes, flying opens up options. It also opens up just as many, if not more, dangers than it can solve (especially for squishy wizards that are crunchy and taste good with ketchup).
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I love what Monte Cook said at a seminar at GenCon a few years ago. Instead of restricting what the players can do, try making challenges that REQUIRE them to use their abilities. That way the players feel good that they can use them, and the GM feels good that he doesn't have to worry about them being used at more unexpected times.
Can they fly? make the enemy castle a floating one that they have to fly to, then they get to make the spell useful, and you get to keep it out of the way of the challenges where you don't want them to fly.
That's... Wow. That's a really good way to look at it.
That's... Wow. That's a really good way to look at it.I love what Monte Cook said at a seminar at GenCon a few years ago. Instead of restricting what the players can do, try making challenges that REQUIRE them to use their abilities. That way the players feel good that they can use them, and the GM feels good that he doesn't have to worry about them being used at more unexpected times.
Can they fly? make the enemy castle a floating one that they have to fly to, then they get to make the spell useful, and you get to keep it out of the way of the challenges where you don't want them to fly.
I'm glad to see I'm not the first person to think of it that way. It's a game with fantastic powers; to me that means it's a game that at higher levels, I can make up something cool and fun without having to worry about if the party can handle it, because if they can't yet, they'll find a way to do so soon enough.
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I guess DMs just don't want to think about how a world with regular individual flight would adapt to counter it.
To be fair, it's not always easy, and rarely detailed in published material.
Sometimes I just want to play a in a world where people build castles and fortify their cities because it is an efficient way to keep enemies out.
I'm exaggerating a bit here, but there's a point where a handful of spells require significant adaptations to counter/cope with the reality. Even if the frequency of spellcasters in the world is low, it still becomes a frequent problem in games since the story focuses on PCs, who by definition, are representative of a minority of powerful beings.
I'm not that familiar with Golarion, but I wish that campaign settings (or the equivalent of the Dungeon Master Guide) had a whole chapter dedicated to how magic affects (or fails to affect) the daily reality of life in a fantasy world.
The closest to achieved that were Eberron and Dark Sun; the former by going technologically magical and the later by going post-apocalypse-y magical...
Most descriptions are in the line of " magic is common here so people have learn to adapt to its realities", or something equally unhelpful :/
'fidnel
This is kinda spoiler-y, but the giants in Kongen-Thulnir in the Age of Worms AP had a couple of good ideas to handle fliers, though they relied mostly on their terrain to do it.
So yeah, if you're invading somebody's turf, give them a terrain-based defense like a harpoon attached to a really big rock (I won't spoil the rest, but it's awesome).
Please, overpowered, I don't think so. You move just a shade faster than a horse and it only lasts so long. In combat it can be a blesing but it can also make you a target.
I can remember the days of 1st ed when flight didn't come with a feather fall attached. When it was done so were you. Dispel magic anyone? And there's a fly skill for a reason...in those heady 1st ed days flying was just assumed...now when you try weaving through the trees or stalactities, screw a roll and *Whump!* your a comedic moment during the battle looking like a Witch-wrapped-around-a-tree Halloween decoration.
Please, overpowered, I don't think so. You move just a shade faster than a horse and it only lasts so long.
I don't think that has much to do with the problematic of flight in a game.
A horse doesn't allow you to cross a ravine, to reach an island, to escape a land-bound enemy that otherwise moves faster than you, to bypass military fortifications, catch-up with (and potentially attack) a flying creature etc or make many skill investments obsolete.
But otherwise I agree, fly isn't overpowered compared to other 3rd level spells as combat dynamics go.
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Unfortunately, I'm in the 'hating (Overland) Fly'-camp as well.
The smart people in this threat responding with the encounter-ideas of lava-columns or trees with strong wind etc. might take a note from 'Table 4-5: Wind Effects on Flight, pag. 97'. The only way a medium-sized wizard is affected by any kind of wind, is if the force of the wind is that of a windstorm, and the only slight danger said wizard might endure, is only when the force of the wind is that of an hurricane. Which is cool, I guess, if your PC's are on the Elemental Plane of Air all the time.
Even with the penalties to Fly of strong wind conditions, the generic wizard has such a large bonus to his Fly skill, that any difficulties when flying become obsolete. (Half Caster Level (~5) + Good Maneuverability (4) + Fly Ranks (~12), versus DC15 or DC20)
Effectively, the Wizard who did not shun the Overland Flight-spell, is now immune to >70% of all hazards presented in your average Adventure Path, for >9 HOURS a day (so; the whole day, every day)! Combine this with Invisibility of any form, and out go all arguments about the Wizard sticking out as a target..
Good DM's of this forum who DO like flying PC's; Do you only put your players in abandoned mine tunnels all the time? Or maybe everyone in the entire world that is the potential enemy of your heroes carries Scrolls of Web. What if the flying PC is also invisible all the time? Do you like to only target the other PC's with your 'bound to the ground'-monsters and villains? Have you actually ever tried to run an Paizo AP, which is mostly outside, with some flying characters???
tl;dr: I don't like the ease of availability to be able to fly. The consequences of being able to fly are so immense, almost no other ability any Class has at equivalent levels has the same game chancing implications. Also, Fly as a skill is IMHO not nearly limiting enough to bother about once you have some ranks in it.
No such thing as stealthing while flying (short of invisibility)
I agree with most of that post MDT but not this part. Those flying predators should be using stealth. In fact, fliers are the primary case for stealth being usable in bright glare (but that may have more to due with the shortcomings of stealth as written and compounded by really no support for 3 dimensional combat, what are we here Kahn from Star Trek 2?), flying at night is generally under concealment so should be all good.
Your rule while understandable makes me sad as you can't have the "Ohh SHIII!!!!" moment when the Wyvern swoops down from out of the sky to poison one of the characters.
Also, the most effective way to stealth is to fly very high. There's a +1 to the perception DC for every 10 feet, which means if you are flying at one mile (~ 1/3 airplane cruising altitude) you get a +528 to your stealth check. Mull that one over for a second. Even if you aren't invisible or stealthing (DC 0 to perceive a visible creature) you are almost impossible to see.
It also means that the guy on the ground below you gets a +500 or so bonus to his stealth check as well. ;P (I think it should be lower due to higher ground and all but rules are occasionally borked).
And heaven forbid you are the size of a barn, like some gargantuan beast, which should be quite noticeable from the few times I've ridden in light aircraft at those altitudes.
I don't mind if one person in the party is able to fly, but if the whole party is able to fly it seems like we've gone from Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser to the Superfriends (not that there's anything wrong with the Superfriends, it's just not my style of D&D).
Ok, so in terms of the OP, the dm is a douchebag. If you can cast mass fly and he things that 'wilderness survival' is a legitimate challenge for your group, he needs to re-evaluate what level he runs his games at. In addition, any dm that wants to 'teach the players a lesson' doesn't deserve the seat at the head of the table (or whever your dm happens to sit in your group).
As for fly itself, I've never really had a problem with it, but that is mostly because I have a rather large group, so its rare the whole group can fly until upper levels. I did have to do some thinking with a player playing a dragon rider and thus being able to fly from level 1, but it wasn't overly hard. But then again, climb and jump are not skills i consider to be important class defining skills. I dont care if the wizard/caster negates some of the need for these skills. If that is your concern you should probably be more worried about things like the enchantment school of magic which negate the need for social skills in many cases.
Not a fan of the Fly spell -- at least at its current level.
It's actually not so much an issue with flying -- it's the form it takes in the game. I'd much rather it be something where the magic requires a "rule of form" ala polymorph into a flying creature or creating/growing wings or Avatar Airbender-style controlling wind currents. As soon as everyone starts flying around like Superman, it kills it for me. Taking the form of a creature (transmutation of form) that flies should be easier than the ability to just throw the laws of physics out the window (negate gravity + ability to manuever without a form of locomotion such as wings).
Yeah, it's a fantasy game but that doesn't mean I don't want internal consistency and genre-related tropes.
The Fly skill actually helps address earlier edition stupidity of the Fighter suddenly thinking he IS Superman, but doesn't go far enough, IMO.
I also think Dimension Door, Teleport, and Raise Dead are rated too low a level for what they can provide, but that's me.
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tl;dr: I don't like the ease of availability to be able to fly. The consequences of being able to fly are so immense, almost no other ability any Class has at equivalent levels has the same game chancing implications. Also, Fly as a skill is IMHO not nearly limiting enough to bother about once you have some ranks in it.
A snythesist with wings at 5'th level.
All the advantages of fly plus unlimited duration and it cannot be dispelled.
Not a fan of the Fly spell -- at least at its current level.
It's actually not so much an issue with flying -- it's the form it takes in the game. I'd much rather it be something where the magic requires a "rule of form" ala polymorph into a flying creature or creating/growing wings or Avatar Airbender-style controlling wind currents. As soon as everyone starts flying around like Superman, it kills it for me. Taking the form of a creature (transmutation of form) that flies should be easier than the ability to just throw the laws of physics out the window (negate gravity + ability to manuever without a form of locomotion such as wings).
Wouldn't that simply be a matter of reflavoring the spell? Right now its ambiguous, but I dont see any reason why the description of the spell cant be changed to have the flight come from wings magically formed on the subject's back.
Yeah, it's a fantasy game but that doesn't mean I don't want internal consistency and genre-related tropes.
It is internally consistent. There are lots of things in the game and in the lore that fly without actual locomotion. The classic example was/is the beholder, but there are also things like a Will-o'-wisp which 'bobs gently in the air' with no evidence of locomotion.
The wisp also has a place in lore, as does irrational flight. How many myths include people driving chariots or riding horses through the air (Apollo, Thor, etc). Mind you I can understand your dislike of the flavor, but to say that there isn't consistency or genre/lore based trops around the concept of purely magical flight is I believe incorrect.
The Fly skill actually helps address earlier edition stupidity of the Fighter suddenly thinking he IS Superman, but doesn't go far enough, IMO.
I also think Dimension Door, Teleport, and Raise Dead are rated too low a level for what they can provide, but that's me.
I do hope one of these days paizo puts out a guide to low fantasy pathfinder, because I know you aren't alone in your desire for some of the higher fantasy magic to be filtered out without completely revamping the game or without having to do something like E6. Now me personally I love the stuff, but then again I am a huge fan of the taltos novels, and one of the first things I did with pathfinder was convert the 3.5 transposition spells. So I am biased.
I do hope one of these days paizo puts out a guide to low fantasy pathfinder
So do I.
I think I remember someone from Paizo saying that a Low Magic/Fantasy Guide would be better served by 3rd parties publishers, but I'd be really interested on the designers' take on a tuned-down magical campaign guide.
'findel
Flight is really powerful. It's in the category with teleport spells and divination spells---to have a coherent game world requires that you consider the ramifications of the availability of these effects, even, or perhaps especially if they're fairly rare.
For flight, you have to consider how this impacts people building fortifications as well as how it affects adventures. Organized nations are likely to actually have a fair bit of what we'd call combat air patrol going on---probably patrolling their skies moreso than the ground in a lot of cases (one reality check, perception penalty of -1/10 feet may be appropriate in a dungeon, but I suggest changing that radically the more open and clear an area is). Fortifications and cities are likely to use ballistas and the like as the equivalent of triple A against fliers. They're also likely to have rules of engagement like unauthorized fliers are attacked on sight as well, considerably more aggressive than their ground rules. In very advanced nations, you're likely to also see regular (i.e., daily) use of divinations to determine where the nation's air defense assets need to be concentrated. Fortresses will practice drills against incursions by small teams of fliers regularly.
A series of novels by Jim Butcher, the Alera Codex addresses this in some ways. There is a sizable portion of the population that is able to manipulate air elementals called furies. They can fly (with varying skill) and the military has what amounts to an air force in addition to land based troups. In addition, those flyers are often contracted to combine their strength to carry 'air carridges' around for those who cannot fly. Both of these things have a serious impact on communication, travel, and warfare. It along with steven brusts taltos novels are some of my favorite takes on high fantasy worlds.
A series of novels by Jim Butcher, the Alera Codex addresses this in some ways. There is a sizable portion of the population that is able to manipulate air elementals called furies. They can fly (with varying skill) and the military has what amounts to an air force in addition to land based troups. In addition, those flyers are often contracted to combine their strength to carry 'air carridges' around for those who cannot fly. Both of these things have a serious impact on communication, travel, and warfare. It along with steven brusts taltos novels are some of my favorite takes on high fantasy worlds.
I love the Taltos novels, where killing someone is not permanent (usually) just a way of sending a message due to the prevalence of magics. So I will add Butcher's series to my "to read" pile.
A series of novels by Jim Butcher, the Alera Codex addresses this in some ways. There is a sizable portion of the population that is able to manipulate air elementals called furies. They can fly (with varying skill) and the military has what amounts to an air force in addition to land based troups. In addition, those flyers are often contracted to combine their strength to carry 'air carridges' around for those who cannot fly. Both of these things have a serious impact on communication, travel, and warfare. It along with steven brusts taltos novels are some of my favorite takes on high fantasy worlds.I love the Taltos novels, where killing someone is not permanent (usually) just a way of sending a message due to the prevalence of magics. So I will add Butcher's series to my "to read" pile.
They have a wildly different style, but Butchers vision of a world so engrained in magic is really really interesting. He takes a real look at what would happen to a world where almost every citizen is capable of at least some magic. In the midst of what I thought was an excellent story he explores the idea of almost a reverse urban fantasy story, where someone examining things ancient ruins are laughed out of the university for thinking they were made with machines/physics, when clearly that would be impossible without the use of magic.
It may take high winds to disturb the flyer, but that isn't all that hard to achieve at higher levels of atmosphere. What may feel like a light wind at ground level can easily be strong enough to cause someone headaches at even 60 feet off the ground, especially when you factor in the fact that often it isn't a solid blast of air coming at you, but lots of little eddies and varying invisible currents with different speeds. Also, a lot of times high winds are accompanied by storms, which bring loss of visibility, and if you're trying to orient yourself, with the only visible constant being the bottom of clouds above you, it's going to be hard to get anywhere or assist in the battle below. Not to mention hail, sleet, and ice would be much more painful at that level, having no way to avoid it.
They have a wildly different style, but Butchers vision of a world so engrained in magic is really really interesting. He takes a real look at what would happen to a world where almost every citizen is capable of at least some magic. In the midst of what I thought was an excellent story he explores the idea of almost a reverse urban fantasy story, where someone examining things ancient ruins are laughed out of the university for thinking they were made with machines/physics, when clearly that would be impossible without the use of magic.
Nice. I think a lot of modern fantasy authors are moving into a "neo-magical realism" by taking this sort of approach to the fantasy/ magical elements. It is a move I support. I know that thinking about d20 fantasy games in this fashion, personally, makes a lot of the this spell/ feat/ class feature is ridiculous go away. See the magical railroad thread for an example of taking this view that to the inhabitants of these worlds these things aren't fantastic but the default technology the society uses. For most people it's that the church septon or local druid Shepherdess can summon a badger to help them dig out a new root cellar (no way they can afford a permanent magically cold room to store vegetables, milk and cider in) that is important.
Ah, but one of the big counters to flight, at least conceptually, is the fly check to avoid altitude loss when hit, which only applies to winged flight. It also fails to scale properly with damage done.
I realize this, and I dont think it would be a massive issue if the fly spell suddenly fell under this rule. After all if you have the fly spell you are probably trying to get good at fly anyway, and well, the dc 10 isnt exactly a difficult target is it?
They have a wildly different style, but Butchers vision of a world so engrained in magic is really really interesting. He takes a real look at what would happen to a world where almost every citizen is capable of at least some magic. In the midst of what I thought was an excellent story he explores the idea of almost a reverse urban fantasy story, where someone examining things ancient ruins are laughed out of the university for thinking they were made with machines/physics, when clearly that would be impossible without the use of magic.Nice. I think a lot of modern fantasy authors are moving into a "neo-magical realism" by taking this sort of approach to the fantasy/ magical elements. It is a move I support. I know that thinking about d20 fantasy games in this fashion, personally, makes a lot of the this spell/ feat/ class feature is ridiculous go away. See the magical railroad thread for an example of taking this view that to the inhabitants of these worlds these things aren't fantastic but the default technology the society uses. For most people it's that the church septon or local druid Shepherdess can summon a badger to help them dig out a new root cellar (no way they can afford a permanent magically cold room to store vegetables, milk and cider in) that is important.
I have a sinking suspicion that the movement is being fueled by the fact that many authors at this point are or were gamers. If you are writing fantasy novels, what are the chances that you haven't at least casually picked up an rpg? And rpgers ask questions about things like the consistency of a world with magic, and how that might affect things. I dont think a modern author would have ignored the fact that gandalf could have had the eagles fly him, frodo and most if not all of the fellowship directly to mordor, if not all the way to mount doom, or how the fact that there are flying monsters in the world might change how fortifications are built.
I have a sinking suspicion that the movement is being fueled by the fact that many authors at this point are or were gamers. If you are writing fantasy novels, what are the chances that you haven't at least casually picked up an rpg? And rpgers ask questions about things like the consistency of a world with magic, and how that might affect things. I dont think a modern author would have ignored the fact that gandalf could have had the eagles fly him, frodo and most if not all of the fellowship directly to mordor, if not all the...They have a wildly different style, but Butchers vision of a world so engrained in magic is really really interesting. He takes a real look at what would happen to a world where almost every citizen is capable of at least some magic. In the midst of what I thought was an excellent story he explores the idea of almost a reverse urban fantasy story, where someone examining things ancient ruins are laughed out of the university for thinking they were made with machines/physics, when clearly that would be impossible without the use of magic.Nice. I think a lot of modern fantasy authors are moving into a "neo-magical realism" by taking this sort of approach to the fantasy/ magical elements. It is a move I support. I know that thinking about d20 fantasy games in this fashion, personally, makes a lot of the this spell/ feat/ class feature is ridiculous go away. See the magical railroad thread for an example of taking this view that to the inhabitants of these worlds these things aren't fantastic but the default technology the society uses. For most people it's that the church septon or local druid Shepherdess can summon a badger to help them dig out a new root cellar (no way they can afford a permanent magically cold room to store vegetables, milk and cider in) that is important.
He'd have had to get the eagles to cooperate first. Not to mention that Sauron would have been well aware of their approach and simply released the Nazgul on their winged mounts. The problem with the "simplicity" of magic is that it solves the immediate problem quite well, but does nothing to solve the connected problems, or the consequences of using that magic. Society and politics can't be resolved simply by the flick of the wrist. Harry Potter didn't win by overwhelming Voldemort with magic; he won by knowing when to use magic, and when to rely on other tactics. Same with Gandalf, and, yes, even Elminster. Even Raistlin couldn't just cast a spell and get everything to fall into place the way he needed it to. All of them had to find allies with other abilities and ties to key groups, and convince them to help, before they could ultimately be successful. In all of those stories, magic may be the driving force behind everything, but it's direct manifestation was usually reserved for dealing with specific problems that came up, not to deal with the bigger picture.
The biggest mistake that DM's make isn't lack of defenses, it's lack of consequences. By flying over the forest instead of going through it, you failed to encounter the druid that could have told you about the dragon on the other side. By teleporting directly to the big boss, you never got a chance to discover that he employs professional mercenaries from 10 different organizations and commands an army of vampires as well. Divination spells work great, but they are remarkably easy to fool; actual investigation may take longer, but it can be harder to trick a dedicated investigator.
By using magic all the time, the party will miss out on potential allies and clues, ultimately making their life more difficult. There is a reason that most non adventuring wizards hole up in a tower and don't leave it, finding servants and apprentices to interact with the world when it is required; they don't understand or care enough about the world to directly deal with it, even if they are able to manipulate the very fabric of space and time..
sign me up for a GM that hates that early access to fly.
The problem is that you loose a lot of challenge-possibilities.
By which you mean "challenges created arbitrarily without consideration of PC capabilities." Get Fly at level 5 or level 12, NOTHING has changed. If it was moved to 12, GMs would be complaining about how Fly has changed the metagame at level 12 and losing "lots of challenge possibilities."
It's not the PC's job to do your homework for you.I mean imagine the rogue who puts all his skill-points into climb, and 5 levels later the wizards flies past him and gives him the finger.
Welcome to D&D.
The biggest mistake that DM's make isn't lack of defenses, it's lack of consequences. By flying over the forest instead of going through it, you failed to encounter the druid that could have told you about the dragon on the other side. By teleporting directly to the big boss, you never got a chance to discover that he employs professional mercenaries from 10 different organizations and commands an army of vampires as well. Divination spells work great, but they are remarkably easy to fool; actual investigation may take longer, but it can be harder to trick a dedicated investigator.
You are talking about 2 different issues here. One is magic trivializing certain kinds of challenges. The other is magical transport bypassing important plot events. They are separate bad kinds of campaign design.
The former, ignores the existance of magic in and of itself. Lots in the woods, traped without water in the desert are not mid level challenges. Challenges you create should be based around what your pc's can do. If they can teleport the arduous journey is a nonsense challenge to put in front of them, and the sign of a poor dm.
The second issue is a dm that is ignoring the rule of 3 and some of the worst kind of railroading/antagonistic dm behavior. The players didnt do precisely what the dm wants so now they are punished for it. If the druid in the woods is important, then the rule of 3 should mean that there are 3 separate ways the players will meet the druid. Random meeting in the woods might be one, but there should be at least 2 other things to direct them towards said druid.
Magic isn't even the problem here, what if they simply went AROUND the woods and thus never met the druid? You are just being reactionary to the players not doing it your way and trying to penalyze them for it. That is textbook bad gming in my book.
You are talking about 2 different issues here. (snip)
The former, ignores the existance of magic in and of itself. Lots in the woods, traped without water in the desert are not mid level challenges
I don't think it is bad DMing to *want* those to be mid-level challenges (and thus many have a problem with Fly as a 3rd level spell, among others).
But you are otherwise correct, coherency within the system makes that such mundane challenges are easily avoided by mid-levels, and DMs should prepare their games accordingly.
This is more an issue of genre that isn't suited for D&D Pathfinder than good or poor DMing. This is where D&D / Pathfinder fails to please a minority (yet significant portion) of roleplayers by being a bit too high-fantasy. Aside from "play another game" or "play E6", people look for solutions (which again i don't see as a sign of poor DMing). The best would be, as you mentioned, a low-fantasy guide (ideally an official one).
'findel
Unfortunately, I'm in the 'hating (Overland) Fly'-camp as well.
The smart people in this threat responding with the encounter-ideas of lava-columns or trees with strong wind etc. might take a note from 'Table 4-5: Wind Effects on Flight, pag. 97'. The only way a medium-sized wizard is affected by any kind of wind, is if the force of the wind is that of a windstorm, and the only slight danger said wizard might endure, is only when the force of the wind is that of an hurricane. Which is cool, I guess, if your PC's are on the Elemental Plane of Air all the time.
Even with the penalties to Fly of strong wind conditions, the generic wizard has such a large bonus to his Fly skill, that any difficulties when flying become obsolete. (Half Caster Level (~5) + Good Maneuverability (4) + Fly Ranks (~12), versus DC15 or DC20)
Effectively, the Wizard who did not shun the Overland Flight-spell, is now immune to >70% of all hazards presented in your average Adventure Path, for >9 HOURS a day (so; the whole day, every day)! Combine this with Invisibility of any form, and out go all arguments about the Wizard sticking out as a target..
Good DM's of this forum who DO like flying PC's; Do you only put your players in abandoned mine tunnels all the time? Or maybe everyone in the entire world that is the potential enemy of your heroes carries Scrolls of Web. What if the flying PC is also invisible all the time? Do you like to only target the other PC's with your 'bound to the ground'-monsters and villains? Have you actually ever tried to run an Paizo AP, which is mostly outside, with some flying characters???
tl;dr: I don't like the ease of availability to be able to fly. The consequences of being able to fly are so immense, almost no other ability any Class has at equivalent levels has the same game chancing implications. Also, Fly as a skill is IMHO not nearly limiting enough to bother about once you have some ranks in it.
PC's playing smart and using their abilities to their advantage is only really a problem when the NPC's are played without the same focus on intelligence and tactics. Everyone in the game world should know how important the spells fly and invisibility are, so everyone, in my opinion, would do something about it.
Why would the enemy not have flying monsters? Why would he not have See Invisibility or Invisibility Purge, or True Seeing? Why would he not make the entrance to his inner sanctum a tunnel that disintegrates you unless you step on the floor tiles in a certain pattern?
I have only ever read and played one adventure module, I run homebrew campaigns. My players use fly and invisibility all the time. Guess what? So do their advesaries. My NPCs fly, teleport, go invisible, use fog clouds, glitterdust, they set traps (even ones surrounded by permanent antimagic fields), employ or summon multiple types of creatures, get robes of eyes, etc...
Just because fly makes a lot of the normal normal environmental challenges less useful for a while, doesn't mean there aren't a crap ton of other environmental challenges and encounters that are viable and useful. You just need to find the ways to make their use of the spells benefit the experience, not take away from it.
Also, one more thing. I used to struggle with feeling like the PC's were ruining my plans a lot more when they came up with ways of circumventing dangers. But look, wheather they had to walk through it or flew over it, they beat the challenge, right? And you can always reuse the challenge in a different place since they don't know what it was now, right? And you as the DM should be the player's biggest cheerleader. Be EXCITED when they do things well, and push yourself to be more inventive and creative and make the challenges different and more exotic, and in the end, more fun.
Wow..... Did not think I would get this many posts. :p
It was the DMs fault for the "hours" on fly, the caster announced that is what we where doing, and the DM said hours. We didn't bother correcting him, and yes, in retrospec, this DM was a huge douche, but that was years ago.
The main point however was that, this isn't the only time this has happend though, many of my DMs seem to have an out right hatred towards casters, and one even has gone so far as limiting the party to 1 spell caster per party. He didn't even want Rangers or Paladins Pitiful 4 spell levels, and told everyone one to seek non magical options, but that is getting a little off topic.
Even the ones the embraced magic, hate the fly spell, even though, as pointed out, it only last minutes, and takes spell slots "not so much an issue in higher levels, but I rarely get to play games that go pass level 10". I had DMs whine about players using the fly spell. The fortification being bypassed was another one.
I, myself had players use the fly spell to get to the top of a tower "Light house" where a sea hag was waiting. The mage and the fighter "he carried him" got the top, where they had to fight her and her 2 half-gaint pirate body guards alone while the rest of the party halariously ran through the tower at break neck speed, with psionics throwing pirates out the windows, or just have 2-4 heroes bullrush people out of their way, and a good time was had by all. :p
So I can understand why fly, like many magical spells can take away a lot of challenges, it still seems like it was an intended part of the game, a lot of those problems that fly can over come can also be solved by levitation, a level 2 spell, and anything that can push you foward. I did this with a bird animal companion, we where not sure if levitation made you wieghtless or not so we assumed a few times it didnt and a few times it did, which we had to work with weight a bit, "bullstrength rage and it is being treated as being dragged:p" but same result.
Although the DM was happy with this because atleast levitation "leaves you vunerable", and needed a "spell combo".
The biggest mistake that DM's make isn't lack of defenses, it's lack of consequences. By flying over the forest instead of going through it, you failed to encounter the druid that could have told you about the dragon on the other side. By teleporting directly to the big boss, you never got a chance to discover that he employs professional mercenaries from 10 different organizations and commands an army of vampires as well. Divination spells work great, but they are remarkably easy to fool; actual investigation may take longer, but it can be harder to trick a dedicated investigator.
You are talking about 2 different issues here. One is magic trivializing certain kinds of challenges. The other is magical transport bypassing important plot events. They are separate bad kinds of campaign design.
The former, ignores the existance of magic in and of itself. Lots in the woods, traped without water in the desert are not mid level challenges. Challenges you create should be based around what your pc's can do. If they can teleport the arduous journey is a nonsense challenge to put in front of them, and the sign of a poor dm.
The second issue is a dm that is ignoring the rule of 3 and some of the worst kind of railroading/antagonistic dm behavior. The players didnt do precisely what the dm wants so now they are punished for it. If the druid in the woods is important, then the rule of 3 should mean that there are 3 separate ways the players will meet the druid. Random meeting in the woods might be one, but there should be at least 2 other things to direct them towards said druid.
Magic isn't even the problem here, what if they simply went AROUND the woods and thus never met the druid? You are just being reactionary to the players not doing it your way and trying to penalyze them for it. That is textbook bad gming in my book.
I am not suggesting that you should go out of your way to penalize the use of magic, or that my examples are all encompassing, simply that magic works for specific situations, but if for whatever reason, the PCs don't fully understand the situation, and they routinely automatically resort to magic to solve their problems, they can and should periodically miss clues that would have helped them make the task easier, maybe by allowing the wizard to use just one spell when without the clue they have to cast three, or they can cast fly and get up the cliff face, but if they had climbed, the unknown enemy wouldn't have seen them coming, giving the party a chance to surprise the enemy instead of vice versa. They can still deal with the situation in both cases usually, the only difference is the amount of party resources, such as hp, time, gold, daily powers (spells, rage, etc), spent to do so. Sometimes it pays to reserve something as powerful as magic at the start of a journey/quest/challenge, so that you can get a better feel for when it can be best used to maximum effect.
The idea is make it so that the party is forced to ask themselves, "Is this really a good use of magic, or should we save it and try something else?", not to stop the party from using magic completely. If you can do that, than suddenly planning defenses becomes easier because the city doesn't have to routinely line their entire walls with counterspell experts, although they may be standing by on alert, because the chances of the cost of using a particular spell, or any spells, in that scenario usually isn't worth the cost. The cost to benefit ratio is a key limiter that many forget about. Ultimately, it is what allows the presence of such powerful magic to not overwhelm most of the world. A good real world example is the atomic bomb; it's a great deterrent to have and to be able to point to, but very, very few people actually consider it's use to be practical in 99% of real life situations that come up. I tend to see 8th and 9th level spells like this. They have their place, but you aren't going to waste them to accomplish a routine political assassination.