This is not a bash the summoner thread... But...
My buddy who plays the summoner and I think the eidolon is outclassing the rest of the party (in a game that I dm by the way). I don't mean to suggest that the summoner is innately imbalanced, but in our game he is far and away the best build.
One thing I like about 4e is how the animal companion rules are balanced. If your panther attacks in a round, that's basically your whole turn. We are thinking of emulating this with a simple house rule. Everybody gets one standard action per round, period. If you are a summoner with an eidolon or a Druid with a companion, you have to choose who gets the standard. This seems on the surface like it would balance the party internally a bit.
Thoughts on this?
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This could lead to real problems if they ever need to run away at the same time. I guess the summoner could easily throw the Eidolon under the boss and just leave it behind but that can be a bit of a flavor breaker depending on the character.
Not entirely relevant to your idea but rather your situation: I'd double check the Eidolon's build and make certain it's built correctly. That seems to be the source of a lot of the problems people have about them, and it's really easy to get something mixed up while building them. I love the class but it is complicated.
What kind of encounters is the Summoner seeming the most overpowered?
Thanks for the replies.
First, a clarification - everyone still gets a move action, and their normal free/swift/immediate actions; the pet and controller just have to share a single standard action. So if they both want to run away, they can.
Second, I'm pretty sure it's not the eidolon build that's the problem. It's more of a party balance issue. The player who knows the most rules and is best at optimizing plays the summoner. Plus, there isn't a true front-line fighter (summoner, witch, cleric, alchemist, ninja). The eidolon just tends to outshine everyone else in most fights, so the player and I are just looking for simple ways to nerf him down a little bit and let the other players have their time in the sun.
Luckily, my summoner player is a great guy and more than willing to make sure that the whole group has a good time. It would be easy for him to make life miserable for the other players, but he's too nice for that.
What kind of encounters is the Summoner seeming the most overpowered?
Well, the summoner loads up on battlefield control spells - aqueous orb and create pit among others. And the eidolon hits the front lines and tears up the opposition. So the summoner is great at fights involving hordes as well as fights involving heavy hitters.
I'm reading the "My players are kicking my butt" thread (or whatever it's called) and it's got lots of good ideas in it - I might be able to mitigate some of this with the thoughts in that thread.
Again, thanks for the replies!
Not entirely relevant to your idea but rather your situation: I'd double check the Eidolon's build and make certain it's built correctly. That seems to be the source of a lot of the problems people have about them, and it's really easy to get something mixed up while building them. I love the class but it is complicated.
I'm the summoner player in MUKid's game. And I'm always worried about the summoner/eidolon build. I'd love to get it double-checked.
Level 7 Gnome Summoner
20-point buy
STR 9
DEX 12
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 18 (level 4 stat bump here)
+5 BAB
66 HP (rolling a bit better than average)
35 skill points (all favored class bonuses to skills)
Skills:
Handle Animal (7 ranks) +14
Kn: Dungeoneering (7 ranks) +14
Lingusitics (7 ranks) +12
Ride (7 ranks) +13 (Military Saddle)
Use Magic Device (7 ranks) +15
Racial Traits:
Gnome Magic: +1 DC for all illusion spells cast
Gnome Magic: cast Dancing Lights/Prestidigitation/Ghost Sound/Speak with Animals 1/day
Eternal Hope: +2 saves vs Fear, may re-roll a d20 roll of '1' 1/day
Illusion Resistance: +2 saves vs Illusion
Keen Senses: +2 Perception, Low-light vision
Academician: +2 to Kn: Dungeoneering
Trait: Boarded in Mwangi Expanse (+1 Kn: Nature, speak Polyglot)
Trait: Dangerously Curious (+1 Use Magic Device)
Equipment:
+1 Mithril Chain Mail
Mithril Longspear
Light Crossbow
Ring of Sustenance
Ring of Protection +1
Amulet of Natural Armor (assigned to Eidolon)
Wayfinder
Cloak of Resistance +1
Wand of Charm Animal (44 charges)
Combat:
Longspear: +6 to hit, 1d6-1 damage
Crossbow: +7 to hit, 1d6 damage
AC 19: 10 +5 (armor) +2 (dex) +1 (ring) +1 (size)
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +6
Feats:
Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augmented Summoning, Mounted Combat, Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Spells Known:
0: Read Magic, Mage Hand, Daze (Will 14), Arcane Mark, Mending, Detect Magic
1 (5/day): Grease (Reflex 17), Mage Armor, Feather Fall, Protection from Evil, Alarm
2(4/day): Create Pit (Reflex 18), Invisibility, Glitterdust (Will 18), Wind Wall (Reflex 16)
3(2/day): Greater magic Fang, Aqueous Orb (Reflex 19)
Every morning, before setting out for the day, cast Mage Armor and Greater Magic Fang on the eidolon.
Other abilities:
Summon Monster IV 7/day
Maker's Call 1/day
Shielded (+2 AC/Saves) when within 5' of eidolon
Mounted combat allows 1/round attempt to dodge an attack that strikes the eidolon with a DC of the to-hit roll
Share Senses 7 rounds/day
Level 7 Quadruped Eidolon
STR 17 (base +3 for level)
DEX 17 (base +3 for level)
CON 14 (level 5 stat boost)
INT 7
WIS 10
CHA 11
+6 BAB/6 HD
61 HP (rolling MUCH above average, max HP at level 1)
Skills: 24
No favored class bonuses
Skills:
Acrobatics (4 ranks) +10
Climb (1 rank) +8
Disable Device (1 rank) +7
Fly (6 ranks) +12
Kn: Planes (3 ranks) +4
Perception (6 ranks) +9
Stealth (2 ranks) +8
Swim (1 rank) +8
Speed: 40'
Fly Speed: 40'
Evolutions (10 points)
Bite, Legs, Legs (Free for form)
Mount (1 point)
Claws (1 point)
Pounce (1 point)
Improved Natural Armor (1 point)
Tail (1 point)
Sting (1 point)
Flight: Wings (2 points)
Energy Attacks: Acid (2 points)
Feats:
Dodge, Iron Will, Power Attack
Combat:
May full attack on a charge action
All attacks count as +1 weapons for the first 7 hours of the adventuring day. If dispelled or after 7 hours, all attacks are non-magical, -1 to hit and damage
4 attacks per full attack:
Bite: +10 to hit, 1d6+4 damage (+1d6 acid)
Claw: +10 to hit, 1d4+4 damage (+1d6 acid)
Claw: +10 to hit, 1d4+4 damage (+1d6 acid)
Sting: +10 to hit, 1d4+4 damage (+1d6 acid)
Power attack: -2 to hit for +4 damage
AC 29: 10 + 4 (Mage Armor) + 3 (dex) + 1 (dodge) + 11 (natural)
Natural armor: +2 base form, +2 evolution, +6 level, +1 amulet
Saves: Fort +7, Reflex +8, Will +4
Other abilities:
Darkvision 60, Evasion, Devotion
If anyone can see a place I've screwed up, please let me know!
The rule still makes no sense. You can't run alongside your trusty companion, since running is a full-round action, and you can't both do one.
It might be a nice balancing factor, but for me, it would be too ridiculous and boardgame-like to be even considered.
I also have a summoner in my campaign, and the eidolon is powerful. I can't tell exactly whether it's because of the class or the player, though, since it's the resident power gamer that plays that character. The guy can make bards that out-perform the rest of the party, so the class itself might be perfectly okay.
A better - and more sensible - rule would be to weaken the pets instead.
You could do that by reducing their BAB, lowering their ability scores (both initial and the rate by which they advance), and in the case of eidolons, reducing the number of possible natural attacks and tweaking certain evolutions. Or rule that only one attack can be primary (meaning all other attacks will only get half the strength bonus to attacks, as well as the attack penalty for secondary attacks).
Beyond that, it would be important to know how well the characters in that party are optimised. It might just be that the Marshall here is better at it than the other players, or put more emphasis on it.
the only thing I see is the hip points. An eidolon not being a PC does not get full Hit Die at first level. Other then that looks pretty normal to me, and also not especially powerful. +10 to hit at level 7 isn't overly impressive. That should be 50-50 to hit most targets at that level.
A 2handed fighter with a 20 strength and 16 dex a +1 great sword with weapon focus, weapon spec, power attack, dodge, and furious focus with at least 2 feats left over for whatever would have an attack routine of:
+15/+8 2d6+17 (7 for strength, 6 for power attack, 2 for weapon spec, 1 for weapon training and 1 for the magic weapon). When the eidolon hits with all its attacks it will do a ton of damage for sure, but the fighter will do more damage more consistently.
Thoughts on this?
I think this logically doesn't make sense. If you have a mental link to your summoned creature or pet, directing it is a free action. If you don't have a mental link but share a common language, directing it is a use of "speaking in combat" which is a free action.
If you were using a pet of animal intelligence where you lack a link to it somehow, then directing it in combat is a Handle Animal check (or ride check if you're riding it and it's trained). This is typically a move action.
The classes were created with the idea of being able to use their abilities as designed. The summoner was not designed with the idea that you would only ever control the eidelon and the summoner would just sit there drooling on himself.
I hardly see how a summoner and his eidelon (or a ranger+pet, druid+pet, paladin+pet) both acting in combat is imbalanced. Perhaps the problem isn't what the summoner is doing right, it's what the rest of the party is doing wrong?
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Yeah, that's not even a properly min-maxed Eidilon. For pet classes, at 7 a Druid / nature oracle with a wolf (or cat for closer comparison) will outclasses that Eidilon.
But typically Eidilons are last resort; at 7 summon monster 4 for d3 augmented apes as a standard action (start in battle / attack immediately) is going to be far better. Then use the 2nd level spell summon Eidilon to toss out a variant of your Eidilon that benefits from augment summoning will be huge.
Both Druids and summoners are amazing; pets + lots of buffing. Summoners also are able to better use lesser wands of meta, since some of their spells benefit from the bonuses that wouldn't normally (the 3000 GP lesser rod of widen + black tentacles is a great start). In fact, Druids and summoners are listed as my two top classes (with witch and oracle of heavens strong contenders).
But dropping the Eidilon nerf on will just encourage playing with summons instead, which will make him even more powerful.
Yeah, that's not even a properly min-maxed Eidilon. For pet classes, at 7 a Druid / nature oracle with a wolf (or cat for closer comparison) will outclasses that Eidilon.
But typically Eidilons are last resort; at 7 summon monster 4 for d3 augmented apes as a standard action (start in battle / attack immediately) is going to be far better. Then use the 2nd level spell summon Eidilon to toss out a variant of your Eidilon that benefits from augment summoning will be huge.
Both Druids and summoners are amazing; pets + lots of buffing. Summoners also are able to better use lesser wands of meta, since some of their spells benefit from the bonuses that wouldn't normally (the 3000 GP lesser rod of widen + black tentacles is a great start). In fact, Druids and summoners are listed as my two top classes (with witch and oracle of heavens strong contenders).
But dropping the Eidilon nerf on will just encourage playing with summons instead, which will make him even more powerful.
I'm well aware that I've chosen 'less than optimal' choices for both my summoner and my eidolon. However, the fact remains that my AC is stratospheric and my damage is top tier in the party, and that's not counting the battlefield control that the summoner can add.
As to summons, I have personally chosen to never use a multi-monster summon, I'm only going to summon a single monster of my highest level available. Why? Because I already take two actions per round to everyone else's one, and bringing in up to 3 monsters is just not cool.
In addition, I have no plans to use metamagic rods to improve my spells, either, just because they're already a bit over the top.
I'm actually worried about next level... I'd planned on taking the eidolon up to large size, and I'm worried that's just going to take him into the realm of the ridiculous compared to the rest of the party.
For comparison sake:
An 'excellent round' for the cleric is hitting with a spirtual greatsword she cast the round before and cleaving into two monsters with her own greatsword... doing damage to three enemies. She hits for 2d6+11 with her sword.
The Ninja, if he can get a full attack, has the potential to hit with two weapons (katana and dagger maybe?) with 4d6 sneak attack each, but has no strength bonus and tends to move a lot, so a single sneak attack is more likely.
The witch does lots of hexxing, drops some spells, etc... but just picked up Black Tentacles, so should begin to have some 'awesome' rounds. Prior to this level, an excellent round would have been a 6d6 lightning bolt hitting 2-3 monsters.
The alchemist is actually pretty nifty, throwing 4d6+a bunch bombs that hit touch AC, splash damage an area, and exclude a square to keep an ally safe.
Finally, an excellent round for me is the eidolon pouncing, doing 5d6+3d4+32 damage power attacking and being nearly impossible to hit in return, while the summoner sends an Aqueous Orb around engulfing three or four bad guys.
My personal thoughts is I rebuild the eidolon to nerf the AC a little, cut out one of the attacks and drop energy attacks, and use that to increase utility a bit. I don't personally care about my power level as much as I want the game to be fun for the GM and the other four players.
Basically what you have here is a party where the rest of the group isn't particularly good at dealing damage, except for the summoner with his eidolon. The summoner with their eidolon is definately a front liner with a good AC and excellent damage coming out of that pounce ability. This will easily overshadow middle of the row classes like the alchemist or a ninja in combat.
This isnt really an issue of the class, but more of this specific party dynamic. And I think rebuilding the eidolon to be more in line with everyone else (with versatility favored over raw power) is the best way to go about correcting this.