I couldn't help but remember this one time I saw a character sneak attack with a heavy mace. It was just so... wrong; sneak attack is supposed to represent precision damage, right? So just curious, what weapons would you deem appropriate for sneak attack?
I'm tempted to make it easy on myself and just say light weapons, but there are few one handed weapons I think would make good sneak attack such as the rapier. Hmm...
Sneak attack is precision damage, but precision damage isn't always hitting an organ or something like that. A heavy mace could easily be used to crush a persons knee or something similar.
It seems to be that we all like to think of sneak attack as skewering the enemy's kidney. My halforc rogues does that with his falchion from through the front of the enemy ;-)
I've always looked at sneak attack as not necessarily precision damage, but as catching the enemy off guard. If you know an attack is coming, you can roll with the blow, or tighten your muscles to make it less effective. If you don't know it's coming though, it hurts a heck of a lot more. I'm not saying sneak attack can't be precision damage, but I don't think that it always is. With daggers and other point it most likely is precision. With maces and the like, it could be the off guard thing like I mention, or hitting a joint, like clawoftiamat mentioned, or even a knock to the head.
the most iconic sneak attack is the half-orc charging with a greataxe held high above his head. He may multiclass with barbarian for this.
the most iconic sneak attack is the half-orc charging with a greataxe held high above his head. He may multiclass with barbarian for this.
Don't forget the part where he's screaming orcish profanities at the top of his lungs the whole time. And he's on fire. Just to make sure everyone sees him.
The idea that Sneak Attacks are precision based have kind of been ingrained into me because of all the mentions of "precision based damage (such as sneak attack)". And I never said that sneak attack had to be back stabbing, it could be throat cutting, or puncturing the heart, etc. If you start to compare it to hitting someone off guard, (AKA Flat-Footed) it brings up the question of why other classes don't get sneak attack for "hitting someone off guard". And I'm not trying to make Rogues worse, just make them believable. Considering that Sneak Attacks just add on damage, the better the rogue you are the less dependent on strength and heavy weapons you should be.
I actually like rogues. But I want them to be more rogue-like not more fighter-like. Otherwise we might as well allow fighters to cast spells. Better stealth, more subterfuge. It's a home game, and I have other ways to improve the rogue, but if you like to think of using a chair for precision damage is okay, that's your call in your game.
I was just looking for suggestions on what makes sense a precision based weapon.
cutting throat and puncturing the heart sounds more like coup de graçe, because it's very likely to be deadly.
I guess for you damage is everything that draws blood.
Other people often see damage as an amount of luck that slowly runs out and at the end leads to more and more blows that draw blood.
Else you really can't explain how one person dies from one blow, and another one keeps going after 20 times the same damage. Also after the first blow you should get penalties on various checks, as you grow weaker.
"I was just looking for suggestions on what makes sense a precision based weapon"
Really any weapon can be, "precision" just means hitting that one spot right when it's most optimal. Any weapon can do that.
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Well in that case, why don't you give the rogue incentive to use your idea of a sneak attack weapon? Try giving daggers, short blades, and cudgels etc. 2d6 instead of 1d6. There's a chance it's overpowered, but at least they'll drop the greataxe.
Personally, I think the 1d6 sneak attack needs a rewrite. Rogue level = extra damage and can crit would be a good start.
actually I would like the rogue to skip damage as sneak attack, and rather be a mundane debuffer, like instead of xd6 he can give a x/2 penalty to either AC or attack or certain skills, always stacking.
Thus the rogue would suck at the beginning of the fight, but at the end he has an opponent with so many injuries he can barely attack of defend himself.
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The rogue archetype knife master encourages use of sneak attack with more thematic weapons like daggers, otherwise yes, you can sneak attack someone with a sword bigger than you are.
Technically you could also sneak attack someone with a ballista
There is a new archetype in UC that increases the sneak attack damage if attacking with dagger.
Other people often see damage as an amount of luck that slowly runs out and at the end leads to more and more blows that draw blood.
Else you really can't explain how one person dies from one blow, and another one keeps going after 20 times the same damage. Also after the first blow you should get penalties on various checks, as you grow weaker.
And that is why I'm using a stamina system (similar to UC's Vigor System). Anyway, that's the inherit problem with the HP system no matter which classes are being played. Especially with Curing spells and Constitution affecting HP. I don't really want to derail this thread, so maybe we should take that to another thread.
Personally, I think the 1d6 sneak attack needs a rewrite. Rogue level = extra damage and can crit would be a good start.
I too think the d6 needs a rewrite but I haven't come up with anything balanced that scales with level to replace it. I really don't want to nerf rogues, but sneak attack has the same flavor as any critical hit. I guess all I want is for the rogue to use something that dexterity can be applied to. After all, dexterity defines motor skills and making a well placed attack requires motor skills.
On the other hand, if you leave the rules as is, you could make an interesting villain who has an army of lv 1 halflings to sneak attack with. Not by sending them to flank but by throwing them.
The rogue archetype knife master encourages use of sneak attack with more thematic weapons like daggers, otherwise yes, you can sneak attack someone with a sword bigger than you are.
Technically you could also sneak attack someone with a ballista
Ah yes, this old horse, but one thing to think about, you have to have the ability to get sneak attack at range, and try moving a ballista into range to hit with and not be unheard
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Ah yes, this old horse, but one thing to think about, you have to have the ability to get sneak attack at range, and try moving a ballista into range to hit with and not be unheardThe rogue archetype knife master encourages use of sneak attack with more thematic weapons like daggers, otherwise yes, you can sneak attack someone with a sword bigger than you are.
Technically you could also sneak attack someone with a ballista
Or be invisible.
Or be invisible.Ah yes, this old horse, but one thing to think about, you have to have the ability to get sneak attack at range, and try moving a ballista into range to hit with and not be unheardThe rogue archetype knife master encourages use of sneak attack with more thematic weapons like daggers, otherwise yes, you can sneak attack someone with a sword bigger than you are.
Technically you could also sneak attack someone with a ballista
But as it says "If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too." I want to see a PC carry a ballista.
Also it says "Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable" and I think dragging a ballista along, would could as it, and only if they can carry the ballista, cause if they're not carrying it, it's visible.But at this level, it's a farce.
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Or be invisible.Ah yes, this old horse, but one thing to think about, you have to have the ability to get sneak attack at range, and try moving a ballista into range to hit with and not be unheardThe rogue archetype knife master encourages use of sneak attack with more thematic weapons like daggers, otherwise yes, you can sneak attack someone with a sword bigger than you are.
Technically you could also sneak attack someone with a ballista
But as it says "If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too." I want to see a PC carry a ballista.
Also it says "Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable" and I think dragging a ballista along, would could as it, and only if they can carry the ballista, cause if they're not carrying it, it's visible.
But at this level, it's a farce.
But if your character is invisible, your target is denied his dexterity bonus to AC. So you can sneak attack with the ballista. Alternatively, get someone to greater feint so you can sneak attack the enemy with the ballista.
But as it says "If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too." I want to see a PC carry a ballista.
Also it says "Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable" and I think dragging a ballista along, would could as it, and only if they can carry the ballista, cause if they're not carrying it, it's visible.
But at this level, it's a farce.
You'd be surprised what you can do with RAW. Technically, a rogue could hide under a small table and when a guard comes in, throw the table (as long as they have the strength) and add sneak attack damage. A level 11 rogue can kill people by sniping them out with coins by taking the improved weapon mastery feat. Anyway, I'm way more okay with sneak attack on a coin than on a bag of flower. Though both really kind of bother me as it just feels less organic and more metagamey.