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I dunno how spoilerish this is so I erred on the side of caution.
I've noted in a previous thread that my players tend to bee-line toward "the plot" once they get wind of it. They've kinda tapered off on that behavior... but only kinda.
We're still somewhat early in RRR. They haven't done Candlemere, the lizards, etc. Being rather systematic in their approach to exploring the southern territories, they worked their way south and stumbled across the owlbear's lair but I managed to scare them off ("Huge??? Umm... no one's even brought us a rumor about this thing so its clearly not an immediate threat to our kingdom. Let's leave it alone.")
Of course, the trolls are another story. Whether or not they're an immediate threat, they're far more likely to become one than some animal living in its range. So they got a bug in their craws to go after the trolls. They're still 5th level.
Obviously, I wanted to scare them off from that... but I'm a firm believer in not just coming out and telling them not to do something. In fact, I've put mechanisms in place that make it so I shouldn't ever have to. For instance, I've allowed them to use their various Knowledge skills to do the MMO equivalent of /con in an attempt to reduce the chance of an accidental death. When they asked about trolls, I made sure to mention that a single troll would be a good challenge for the grouop but they should win (all PC's are 5th level, trolls are CR5, after all). However, I also mentioned that trolls with class levels are not uncommon so its hard to say for sure. Its like trying to /con a human. Maybe he's a chamber pot cleaner... maybe he's a Fighter. You can't quite generalize. This didn't scare them off.
The dice quickly tossed in their own bid to help me out. They generated a random encounter with SIX trolls. This was at night so the PC's would be caught camping meaning they'd likely be unarmored and out of position. That was already bad enough. I didn't want to kill them! So I reduced it to 4 (I know, I know). The battle was TOUGH. The Paladin did little more than run interference, absorbing attacks until the others could dish out enough damage that he finally got to his horse with a lance and did what a Paladin armed with a lance and Smite Evil can do.
They were all so badly hurt, I figured they would decide to turn away from dealing with Hargulka... but nope. They felt that if the trolls were ranging that far, they would become an issue for the kingdom (at the Stag Lord's fort) that much sooner than they originally suspected! (*&%@#$%&* it!!!).
I am hoping that, once they see the trolls aren't simply set up in some woodland camp, that they will back off. The ol' Wangering Giant hasn't done anything to dissuade them. He told them how the trolls basically sent him packing and they were too tough for him. Rather than see this for the hint it is, they convinced him to come with them (knowing he could be civilized with the right motivation, the Paladin is seeing passed the fact that the giant currently pings on his Detect Evil scope)!
Besides doing something contrived (like throwing in the signs of an obviously superior group that got their collective butts handed to them), the only thing I can hope for is their seeing these trolls are in a fortified location and backing off.
Has anyone had to deal with this or a similar situation? How'd it go? Should I be preparing for the TPK? Or is there some way out of it after they commit themselves to this course of action?
I can't see why the trolls would capture the PC's other than to eat them. Ransoming them back to their own kingdom would likely be out of the question, considering the motivation behind the trolls.
Your players sound hardheaded.
Option 1: Let the dice fall. Sometimes the good guys lose. Maybe they'll get the miracle they're hoping for.
Option 2: If the group (including you as DM) is attached to the characters being played and want to live, but still have a big loss, you can go the route of Hargulka's Monster Kingdom. Make Hargulka more intelligent than is written in the story, give him a taste for empire, and when they defeat the PCs, he can hold them as hostages until they sign a terrible treaty, then a few days after. A copy can be sent north to Restov to make sure that the treaty is recognized, and can include things like slave labor, handing over any kobolds they've befriended at that point, and making the PCs work for them. Don't be afraid to get your DM mallet and bang away at this. This is a LOT of extra work outside the scope of the adventure. Be sure to check the thread by DM Dudemeister for more info on the monster kingdom. I think it's almost canon by now.
Option 3: Fling dice, tell your players you hate them, and go watch a movie. Afterward, tell them you forgive them for ruining your game and are prepared to bestow upon them a redo.
For my group, I would go with Option 1, then make one of my players DM. See how he likes it.
Your players sound hardheaded.
Option 1: Let the dice fall. Sometimes the good guys lose. Maybe they'll get the miracle they're hoping for.Option 2: If the group (including you as DM) is attached to the characters being played and want to live, but still have a big loss, you can go the route of Hargulka's Monster Kingdom. Make Hargulka more intelligent than is written in the story, give him a taste for empire, and when they defeat the PCs, he can hold them as hostages until they sign a terrible treaty, then a few days after. A copy can be sent north to Restov to make sure that the treaty is recognized, and can include things like slave labor, handing over any kobolds they've befriended at that point, and making the PCs work for them. Don't be afraid to get your DM mallet and bang away at this. This is a LOT of extra work outside the scope of the adventure. Be sure to check the thread by DM Dudemeister for more info on the monster kingdom. I think it's almost canon by now.
Option 3: Fling dice, tell your players you hate them, and go watch a movie. Afterward, tell them you forgive them for ruining your game and are prepared to bestow upon them a redo.
For my group, I would go with Option 1, then make one of my players DM. See how he likes it.
I also vote for option 1.
Sometimes player get the idea that a GM won't kill them no matter what they do, or that every encounter is beatable at the current level. When I ran this campaign I told them up front they might find things they could not beat, and running is not a bad idea. If you have not given that speech yet, now is the time. If they still insist on doing things the hard way let the dice gods sort it out.
When it comes to major locations, I shift them around when necessary. For example, when the PCs were going to discover the Lonely Tomb (or whatever) before they encountered the Mad Hermit, I simply switched the hexes and had them encounter the hermit first. Likewise, if they had stumbled upon the owlbear lair before the trolls, I would have considered switching the two of them.
The downside to doing this is that your DM map becomes inaccurate, and you have to take pains to make sure that directions don't get messed up ("Blah blah is about 24 miles, or two hexes to the east...").
For what it's worth, given that Eirick's bandits haven't charmed the giant owlbear yet, there'd be two of them -- not to mention whatever creatures he may have fought through to get to them. You would have been perfectly justified in making the area visually clearly overwhelming, as long as you later showed slain monsters when the PCs return, somewhat explaining why things have toned down.
Granted, I've also used runners from the kingdom once or twice. For example, Jubilost made a good messenger from the kingdom to alert the PCs that something was afoot. for example, my PCs were going to go straight from the troll lair to the owlbear cave, so I had to do this in order to have them survey the destruction and develop a reason to bust into the cave besides KIL MONSTARS ARGH.
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Thanks for the kind words Snatcherbanderwocky :)
I think part of the fun of a Sandbox is the players can go anywhere in any order they choose. They have a Hill Giant to back them up, and want to go trounce trolls. Let them.
Now I know you don't want the PCs to die, but at the same time Sandboxes are about consequences and actions. Have the trolls be a more reactive force (it's hard to sneak up with a big honkin' Giant at their back).
If any of them die they'll likely run away. Here's the thing:
Let Them.
Maybe the trolls mock them and call them names, but they let the PCs go.Telling them to run back to their little barony, pack up and run away to Restov. The Stolen Lands is for real monsters only.
They can head back to their kingdom, and you can give them a quest to get a Scroll of Raise Dead, (perhaps rumours of one in the Tomb of the Lonely Warrior, or Tyressia might have one). That way the PCs can quest long enough to level and head back to the Trolls when they're more level appropriate.
Hope that helps :)
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I didn't get a chance to reply but I was reading on a mobile device so I appreciate the responses. I sorta opted for 1 (Let the dice and the bodies hit the floor), too.
I let one more obstacle try to dissuade them: they found the tracks of the forest drake (they were in his hex, after all). For a month or so, rumors were reaching their city of a green dragon being on the loose... bolstered by Jubilost Narthropple showing up in the kingdom's capitol with actual scales and a tale of how he rescued his entire expedition party from the ravenous beast. The PC's hadn't quite befriended him during their initial meeting after helping him cross the river. They weren't impressed with his lack of willingness to just hand over his maps, considered him a blowhard and went their separate ways. Naturally, they didn't believe him about how he rescued anyone but they did buy a scale for research. After determining it was of real, draconic origin, they had decided a dragon was something they were not in a rush to deal with.
Now that they found the tracks and, due to a Bard's ability to Take 20 on Knowledge skills 1x/day, that it was actually a drake and not a true dragon, they briefly distracted themselves with it before someone actually said, "This is a red herring. We came out here to deal with the trolls. Let's not waste resources on this drake. We can always hunt it on our way back if we are still in good shape."
Everyone agreed. I guess, if they expected to be in good enough shape to be hunting the drake after dealing with the trolls, they REALLY were not getting the hints that the trolls were more dangerous than they were suspecting.
Upon seeing how the trolls were actually holed up in a fortified cave, they suddenly had their doubts... but a scouting flight by the druid-turned-eagle revealed the watchtower. They figured climbing up the back side of the hill and going in through the tower was better than dealing with the barbican.
So in they went. Hold Person dealt with the belly-button exploring troll pretty quickly but then, as they traveled down to the barbican's interior, they were heard by the two trolls there in(this is not a quiet group... we're not gonna offer much value to the new stealth rules playtest). They assumed is was the trasure seeker coming to show them his latest discovery but when poked a head in to tell him to go back to the tower, they quickly saw different. One troll tried to stall the PC's in the stairwell while the other went and grabbed Mr. I'm-Not-Hungy-I'll-Just-Pick (eating the remains of a halfling) for a little more oomph.
The PC's had the wangering giant on their side but he'd already been to the trolls and I figured they would know something of his wolfberry desires. I still wanted things not to go horribly for the PC's so I told them the trolls and giant are exchanging words during the fight. Trolls were wasting actions trying to turn the giant rather than fighting. The PC's didn't speak Giant but the bard surmised, "They're gonna turn him against us." Actually, they had been saying for a while, "What will we do when the giant turns against us." but they never really addressed it.
Once the troll in the stairwell was dead, the PC's started into the barbican where they were mashed and smashed by the two trolls waiting for them. They had effectively split the party in half by not allowing the full group into the room. Worst of all, the PC's arcane spellcaster was caught up in the stairwell behind the giant without clear lines of sight that wouldn't catch allies in any of her fire spells. It took several rounds for them to push their way in.
Finally, after several rounds of communication (and the one troll in the stairwell being pasted by the giant) the time for the bluff was at hand. I really thought this was just a waste of the actions by the trolls and more a benefit to the PC's for it. Looking at the troll stats, I didn't really count on a success. When time came for the trolls to roll..... 20. The giant turned to the PC's, "Sorry.... dey has wuffberrieses."
The three trolls and the giant eventually lost the battle but they inflicted a serious hurt on the PC's in terms of resources used. The bard suggested getting out and falling back to return when they were stronger. The general sentiment was, "We already stirred the pot. We're committed."
And that's where we left off.
TL;DR They made it to the trolls' caves. They got in, fought with the guards, were seriously hurt, drained of resources, and still pressing on... This isn't looking good.
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You honestly have done everything you could. If the PCs die to a TPK stat up their NPC council members to stage a rescue mission. The goal is only to retrieve the corpses for raising. The bodies should be on Pikes outside Hargulka's fort.
The PCs death causes 1d6 unrest and costs 1.5 BP per resurrection (round up).
They might learn a lesson about discretion and valor. Once they're back in town have NPCs make requests- Tyg's missing. Or have Grigori criticize the PCs publicly: "THEY! Stir up trouble with Trolls! They can not even keep themselves alive! How can we expect to defend ourselves when the brutes seek retribution! They ignore the troubles at their own borders in order to chase fool's errands! We are ruled either by idiots or madmen!"
Grigori is so much more terrible when he's right.
From your comments, it's clear that your players expect you to pull your punches if they get in too deep. At some level, they believe they have a fighting chance against whatever you throw at them and expect level-appropriate encounters.
Warn them that they are sorely mistaken, that there are encounters that will slaughter them. Make it clear that you don't want a TPK, but they need to realize that they can't tackle every monster on the map.
Then stop "pulling their fat out of the fire". A little warning is all they deserve when a seriously-dangerous encounter stands before them. "Toward the end of second watch, the druid hears a gutteral voice approaching, arguing in what might be the Giant tongue. From the noise, there are at least half-a-dozen large creatures approaching." That's PLENTY of warning that trouble is inbound.
Once it's clear that they're committed to battle despite your hints, give the party a secondary victory condition, such as giving the monsters a prisoner who could be rescued. That way they can feel like winners, even if half the party is dead and the rest in flight. "they kicked our arses, but we rescued the damsel in distress and got the heck out of Dodge!" Don't do this unless they're already committed, or you may convince them to go into a fight they can't handle.
Don't worry, you'll only have to maim them once. After a near-TPK (let the survivors run...), they'll be much more cautious.
The three trolls and the giant eventually lost the battle but they inflicted a serious hurt on the PC's in terms of resources used. The bard suggested getting out and falling back to return when they were stronger. The general sentiment was, "We already stirred the pot. We're committed."
And that's where we left off.
They made it to the trolls' caves. They got in, fought with the guards, were seriously hurt, drained of resources, and still pressing on... This isn't looking good.
To prevent a TPK, let them find a prisoner, a non-combatant such as a innocent maiden or child. (Perhaps the trolls were gambling to see who would get to eat her). Hopefully, the paladin will want to get her out of there before the party picks another fight. She can also warn the party that there are many more foes left to deal with.
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1.5 BP per rezz? Isn't that a bit on the light side?
I'm assuming since he's in RRR their BP still fluctuates between abysmally low and mediocre. 6 BP is not insignificant for a 4 man group. If it's a bit on the light side increase to 2 or 2.5. I was looking at the unrest as acting as the second balancing factor.
Ultimately as long as the PCs understand that the world isn't going to change to accommodate them with the scare that is a TPK then that's what matters.
Also I'm a soft touch too, and would say: "it's only so cheap because Jhod called in some big favors in Restov, he won't be able to do that a second time"
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Thanks for the posts, everyone. I would love to keep the conversation going through my own participation but I dislocated my right arm at the shoulder on Sunday night.
They're gonna have to reap what they sow. Maybe they'll pull it off? Maybe they'll back out and escape while they can?
They might deserve whatever comes but... wish them luck!
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Thanks for the posts, everyone. I would love to keep the conversation going through my own participation but I dislocated my right arm at the shoulder on Sunday night.
They're gonna have to reap what they sow. Maybe they'll pull it off? Maybe they'll back out and escape while they can?
They might deserve whatever comes but... wish them luck!
gl to you too!
Rocco you could always have the council members plead with the Trolls to release the uneaten portions of the hero's bodies.
Of course Hargulka would demand a HUGE price for this...
Possibly land, cities, treasure in the form of BP, or just maybe their entire kingdom. After their goods are lost and they are resurrected at a refugee camp in the middle of koboldsville, a rescue mission where the damsel is the entire kingdom could prove rather fun.
Let the dice fall where they may. It makes victory sweeter
roccojr I told your story to the DM of my Kingmaker game and he want's to know what happened?
Remember that in DnD retreat is often a suckers' game. If you're slower than your opponent and lack the ability to hide your tracks, it's pretty much impossible to get away from monsters without DM fiat. And running away once the battle is joined is often where you end up getting PCs killed with little benefit.
Most of the TPKs I've been involved with have involved the party trying to flee and failing.
So, as a DM, you have to be very clear that retreat WORKS as well as the fact that retreat is an option.
Roguerouge, that is the perfect timing for them to clasp hands, stare eachother in the eye and say "Whoever makes it out of here alive, takes care of the family of who doesn't" before running away into several directions, finding their horses and running with their tails between their legs...
Cool roleplaying, and nice hooks for that character as he made a vow... And interesting to see how they deal with it ^^
Remember that in DnD retreat is often a suckers' game. If you're slower than your opponent and lack the ability to hide your tracks, it's pretty much impossible to get away from monsters without DM fiat. And running away once the battle is joined is often where you end up getting PCs killed with little benefit.
Most of the TPKs I've been involved with have involved the party trying to flee and failing.
So, as a DM, you have to be very clear that retreat WORKS as well as the fact that retreat is an option.
True, the only TPK I was involved with was when we got attacked by monsters 5 over our CR (we were 2nd level characters, the encounter was CR7). We would have run away, but they were "grabby" monsters and people started getting grabbed right away. So by the time 1 person was free, another had been grabbed and soon we were all dead. 1 or 2 characters might have been able to make it if they had just ran away at the begining, but everyone showed a willingness to try to help the others...and then it was too late. And all we did was open a door. No forewarning, no chance...just open a door and BAM, TPK.
Grabby things work too well, unfortunately :P
TBH, the DM should have bodged the dice a bit.. CR7 for party of 2 is overkill
Roccojr explained the end result here.
Thanks for the heads up, I'll bookmark it and read it later.
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Roccojr explained the end result here.Thanks for the heads up, I'll bookmark it and read it later.
Well... it was just a thumbnail. Here's how the night actually played out.
It was a really weird night. Two of the players are VERY focused on fighting from horseback. I had no idea HOW focused until that very night. Once they saw the corridors were 10' wide, despite the only room they'd actually gotten into being the barbican, and that they'd secured the entrance, they decided to go retrieve their horses so they could fight from horseback in the troll's lair (my mistake for saying the ceilings were surprisingly high, perhaps? Seeing as the trolls were using the place as a lair).
I'm not really getting why they did this. They'd taken care of the trolls in the tower, barbican, even the one in the dining hall AND four of the trollhounds. They were tough fights but they were actually doing well. The only place where their horses could maneuver was the barbican... so why they figured it was a good idea to have them was beyond me... especially since the horses were a mile off!!!
So off they go... leaving several PC's behind to mind the entrance. The sight details don't really give reasons for any of the trolls doing too much moving around but, with the latrine where it was (and the PC's were all too aware of it), it stood to reason someone might pop on by... which they did. Once the dead trollhounds were found, that was pretty much all she wrote.
The troll made a Wisdom check (of all things) to go get help... which ended up moving the major battle right then and there to the barbican. The PC's ended up fighting fairly well but one NPC was killed outright... two PC's dead but stable... one NPC escaped. She went off to tell the others what had happened.
She, being the sorceress, said she was completely out of spells until the next morning. As one of the PC's was a Paladin, he refused to leave his fallen comrades without at least attempting a rescue. So the three of them went back (with the horses...) to fight the trolls.
It was here that I got generous. One of the dead/stable PC's woke up in the larder. Stripped of gear (and nearly all his clothes...), he staggered out to find the other stable PC on the dining room table. The trolls were nowhere to be found (having found more than one set of tracks leaving the barbican and figuring the escaped sorceress might come back with help, they were deeper in the lair planning). They also recovered the dead NPC from the larder and left.
Both groups found each other and NOW they opted to camp. Lots of healing magic later, they redistributed gear and went to the troll lair. After all the work they did to get the damned horses, I didn't give them a hard time. They caused their own hard time as I don't let PC's move through friendly horse squares. They have to squeeze.
The final battle ended up in the bigger area toward the rear of the lair. The horses ended up being useful there as charges, smite evil, etc. were very effective... and the PC's ultimately emerged victorious...
Rule nr 73: The pc's never do what is logical ^^
and the PC's ultimately emerged victorious...
Rule nr 74: The pc's had fun, and an amazing story to tell :D
== Awesome session?
Roccojr, thanks for the ending. I guess they got lucky that 2 of them stabalized before dying. Trolls hit hard and will often just outright kill their targets.
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Roccojr, thanks for the ending. I guess they got lucky that 2 of them stabalized before dying. Trolls hit hard and will often just outright kill their targets.
Yup... actually, that's why the only death was the one character that happened to be the NPC. The trolls moved on after bringing someone down but the NPC was standing alone, the last to fall... and got beaten to a pulp.
The PC's still recovered her and had her raised... Kingmaker allows a lot more exploration of the 'behind the scenes' aspect of a character's growth than most AP's. She's dealing with the memory of the encounter and not sure about continuing to adventure...
Incidentally, that NPC is none other than Kressle....
So, yeah, Rickmeister... Rules 73 and 74 are definitely in action in my campaign.