So What Are You Gonna Do About It? (For the government and coprorate malfesance threads)


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So...what? There's all this railing against governments and corporations (and the cozy relationships they enjoy)...but no so much on the subject of how to create lasting, effective change.

So...What are you going to do about it?

The Exchange

IBTL


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I have decided to not only complain on the forums about it.
I will flame somebody who disagrees with me.
One person can make a difference.

The Exchange

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I have decided to not only complain on the forums about it.

I will flame somebody who disagrees with me.
One person can make a difference.

well played.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I have decided to not only complain on the forums about it.

I will flame somebody who disagrees with me.
One person can make a difference.

People can make a difference, not kobolds.


Callous Jack wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I have decided to not only complain on the forums about it.

I will flame somebody who disagrees with me.
One person can make a difference.
People can make a difference, not kobolds.

Shut the **** up you son of a *****. You're a ****ing pathetic excuse for a *******.

Wait...sorry, reflex. Gotta save that for the political threads. >_>

The Exchange

Callous Jack wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I have decided to not only complain on the forums about it.

I will flame somebody who disagrees with me.
One person can make a difference.
People can make a difference, not kobolds.

yes they can. They make a ton of differences for low level PC's who need that extra XP for easy encounters and stuff to loot and sell. My question is though, where do they find this stuff?? Dragon garage sales?


Not much you can do. There's 6 billion people on the planet and most of them are idiots, and the folks in power are better at lying and have more resources to lie with than i do. Its like playing transformice where the idiot that wants to see you all die gets to play the shaman.


Well, since you ask, I am planning a putsch on September 22nd.


Actively campaign(through 38 degrees), protest(UK uncut and anon), funding research (the equality trust) and fund efforts to provide work arounds to their power(such a 'A human right' and 'The serval project').


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Vote wisely. Listen patiently. Debate courteously. Reasearch regularly.

The Exchange

Freehold DM wrote:
Vote wisely. Listen patiently. Debate courteously. Research regularly.

Could not agree more. Well said.

The Exchange

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I would add, to humbly be willing to change you mind at times.


I prefer yelling and throwing rocks.


Make your opinion known. Particularly to your representatives at all levels, but to your friends and neighbors as well. Politely. As hard as that is sometimes.

Pay attention to local politics. They may matter more in the short term than national one. Local politics is also where most national politicians get there start, so support the good ones and expose the bad. You can have much more influence at this scale.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Callous Jack wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I have decided to not only complain on the forums about it.

I will flame somebody who disagrees with me.
One person can make a difference.
People can make a difference, not kobolds.

Shut the **** up you son of a *****. You're a ****ing pathetic excuse for a *******.

Wait...sorry, reflex. Gotta save that for the political threads. >_>

Fascist commie!

The Exchange

Callous Jack wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Callous Jack wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I have decided to not only complain on the forums about it.

I will flame somebody who disagrees with me.
One person can make a difference.
People can make a difference, not kobolds.

Shut the **** up you son of a *****. You're a ****ing pathetic excuse for a *******.

Wait...sorry, reflex. Gotta save that for the political threads. >_>

Fascist commie!

Kobolds are the fasc... um.... It's the Goblins who are comm.... You know now I'm confused.

Down with Sebastian!

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Crimson Jester wrote:
Callous Jack wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Callous Jack wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I have decided to not only complain on the forums about it.

I will flame somebody who disagrees with me.
One person can make a difference.
People can make a difference, not kobolds.

Shut the **** up you son of a *****. You're a ****ing pathetic excuse for a *******.

Wait...sorry, reflex. Gotta save that for the political threads. >_>

Fascist commie!

Kobolds are the fasc... um.... It's the Goblins who are comm.... You know now I'm confused.

Down with Sebastian!

Down with the equine plutocrat!


Personally it starts with information. By bringing the events and problems out where more people see it I hope that it inspires and intimidates others into not following in these less than wonderful activities and perhaps that the situation will be faster solved due to people wanting to protect their image.

Always remember that public image has become power -- the more you control someone's public image the more you control them.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Personally it starts with information. By bringing the events and problems out where more people see it I hope that it inspires and intimidates others into not following in these less than wonderful activities and perhaps that the situation will be faster solved due to people wanting to protect their image.

Always remember that public image has become power -- the more you control someone's public image the more you control them.

Does this actually work though? I mean its not exactly a secret that Dick Cheney's loyalties lied with Halliburton, not America. Nothing was hidden, everything was known, it just wasn't put together by most people.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

Personally it starts with information. By bringing the events and problems out where more people see it I hope that it inspires and intimidates others into not following in these less than wonderful activities and perhaps that the situation will be faster solved due to people wanting to protect their image.

Always remember that public image has become power -- the more you control someone's public image the more you control them.

Does this actually work though? I mean its not exactly a secret that Dick Cheney's loyalties lied with Halliburton, not America. Nothing was hidden, everything was known, it just wasn't put together by most people.

Yes it does work. It works by starting people thinking -- and by laying your own motives on the table.

Let me put it this way -- I don't hide: I'm open about what I'm doing, what my opinion is and where I get my facts. Yes I have an agenda -- but you'll know what it is and where I stand.

You can't successfully demonize that as long as I keep putting the information out there. It makes me and my position more reasonable and human.

It's no longer "them versus us" it's "Abe has ideas, and he presents facts and listens -- I might not agree with him, but he doesn't want to kill the US and I respect him."

By forcing people to think, and talk and look we put a human face on it and bring civility back to the table. Those that refuse to sit and continue to yell start being ignored because people honestly want to improve both themselves, their position and the world.

Open communication does far more than all the rockets that the Palestinians and Israelis launch at each other -- and it solved far more problems in Iraq than more violence did.

Is it perfect? No -- but it's a damn sight better than misinformation and demonizing each other.

It also breaks down the basic ponzi scheme that holds power currently with misinformation, misdirection and purposefully cutting communication lines.

You'll note that in any form of warfare the first thing you do is blind your enemy and cut/compromise his communications.

That is exactly what continues to happen in the political, cultural, and economic wars currently being fought in the USA -- because what all those come down to is power -- by disrupting the communication of ordinary citizens and cutting us off from each other they hope to keep us clashing instead of meeting and finding our own way.

Democracy can only work with a civil society -- a civil society can only happen with communication.


Quote:
Yes it does work.

Let me put it this way, can you give an example in history of this working?

Quote:
It works by starting people thinking -- and by laying your own motives on the table.

People don't like to think. They HATE to think. The quickest way to get someone mad at you is to challenge their preconceptions about how the world works. You might get some people to think but they're going to be a very small minority, and because they think they're going to be a very un-unified minority. Everyone is going to have their own ideas, and it comes down to herding cats.

Quote:
Let me put it this way -- I don't hide: I'm open about what I'm doing, what my opinion is and where I get my facts. Yes I have an agenda -- but you'll know what it is and where I stand.

Thats nice. Meanwhile the other side says i have no agenda but my love for america, whips people into a patriotic fervor, comes up with a flimsy excuse for invading a place and rakes in billions off of the oil contracts.

Quote:
You can't successfully demonize that as long as I keep putting the information out there. It makes me and my position more reasonable and human.

Repeat a big enough lie often enough and loud enough and people will take it for the truth. even from what you said above, just play an out of context clip of you saying "i have an agenda" , put in some dun dun DUuuuuuhn music and point out your communist socialist fascist fashionist marxist arachanist leanings.

Quote:
It's no longer "them versus us" it's "Abe has ideas, and he presents facts and listens -- I might not agree with him, but he doesn't want to kill the US and I respect him."

you will be labeled regardless of your actions. People don't like to think, labels are a heck of a mental shortcut.

Quote:
By forcing people to think, and talk and look we put a human face on it and bring civility back to the table. Those that refuse to sit and continue to yell start being ignored because people honestly want to improve both themselves, their position and the world.

Look what the flower children of the 60s turned into.

Quote:
Open communication does far more than all the rockets that the Palestinians and Israelis launch at each other -- and it solved far more problems in Iraq than more violence did.

If that were true there would be peace. The problem there is that open communication doesn't matter diddly squat against a lifetime of oppression and mutual violence. The nice things people say more than the nice things they do. The mean things people DO matter a lot more than the nice things they say.

Quote:
Is it perfect? No -- but it's a damn sight better than misinformation and demonizing each other.

Its hard to grow your own halo. Its very easy to plop horns on someone else.

Quote:
It also breaks down the basic ponzi scheme that holds power currently with misinformation, misdirection and purposefully cutting communication lines.

That ponzi scheme has been in place since the begginings of recorded history, and likely further. What makes you think things are going to change now?

Quote:
You'll note that in any form of warfare the first thing you do is blind your enemy and cut/compromise his communications.

No, the first thing you do is demonize your opponent.

Quote:
Democracy can only work with a civil society -- a civil society can only happen with communication.

communication is hard if not impossible with the vast amount of noise being generated.


Crimson Jester wrote:
I would add, to humbly be willing to change you mind at times.

I was going to say that I missed this one, but changing people's minds takes time- in all but the most destructively dire of circumstances would I say one needs to change their mind or ways quickly. Instead, I would add, be humbling willing to compromise on ideas. It is not a sign of weakness, but a sign of maturity.


Freehold DM wrote:
Vote wisely. Listen patiently. Debate courteously. Reasearch regularly.

I would add that we need to be in the habit of constantly educating ourselves.

I also recommend a high level of personal preparedness.

The Exchange

I would say that democracy can only exist in a THINKING society. As we stop thinking and let glamour and catchphrases rule us we lose the power of the people and return to tyranny


Burgomeister of Troll Town wrote:
I prefer yelling and throwing rocks.

"We are going to need bigger guns!"


Freehold DM wrote:
Vote wisely. Listen patiently. Debate courteously. Reasearch regularly.

Brilliant.

I'd change "debate" to "discuss," but that's me.

To my mind, the term "debate" implies there's a correct / "right" position when compared with an incorrect / "wrong" position; "discuss" simply means different points-of-view or opinions are shared ... with the possibility communication takes place.

Regardless, you've my highest regards for this post.

-- Andy


Andrew Tuttle wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Vote wisely. Listen patiently. Debate courteously. Reasearch regularly.

Brilliant.

I'd change "debate" to "discuss," but that's me.

To my mind, the term "debate" implies there's a correct / "right" position when compared with an incorrect / "wrong" position; "discuss" simply means different points-of-view or opinions are shared ... with the possibility communication takes place.

Regardless, you've my highest regards for this post.

-- Andy

How will that change anything?

LINK


Bitter Thorn wrote:
Burgomeister of Troll Town wrote:
I prefer yelling and throwing rocks.
"We are going to need bigger guns!"

NSFW link

(language NSFW)


Grand Magus,

I'm not sure which "that" you're referring to; Freehold DM's post (which I lauded) or my suggestion to change "debate" to discuss.

Either way, (and at the least) both recommend regular research.

The video snippet you linked to of George Carlin (I think the fellow was a genius, may he rest in peace) seemed to advise the same thing.

You can say a great deal about Carlin, but he seemed a big proponent of critical thinking, questioning assumptions about authority and culture.

Which requires regular research, no?

-- Andy

The Exchange

I am preparing to flee when it all come tumbling down


BigNorseWolf wins this thread, as he was the only one with the correct answer: Absolutely nothing.

Sorry, but that's how it is. The people running the show have all the money, all of the influence, and all of the control over everything that any kind of change would require (media being the big one, kind of hard to get your revolution started if nobody ever hears about it).

The whole "start local" bit fails due to the fact that even if your local movement is successful, it will still need media access to go national. But let's assume that by some miracle, your "word of mouth" is able to override the noise of the television...what will you do about the bag of dirty tricks (do you have any idea how easy it is to plant a kilo of coke and some child pornography in someone's house)?

I know some people have decided that going "Bastille Day" on the ruling elite is the only answer...but that entails taking on the military apparatus of the United States in open combat. Again, assuming some sort of miracle occurs that allows said military to be defeated, the ruling elite have one final ace that trumps anything any of you (or anyone else) can come up with: 30,000 intact, active, and ready-to-go-at-a-moments'-notice thermonuclear weapons THAT THEY WILL NOT HESITATE TO USE. These people really do live by the "If I can't have it, nobody will" mentality. If it looks like their military is going to be overcome, if they have legitimate reason to believe that they are really going to lose, they will empty the holes. All of them. No matter what scenario you envision for taking these people on, the very best you can hope for (assuming an unprecedented string of miracles) is mutual annihilation.

Nothing is going to "fall apart"...their hegemony, their control, will only tighten. If you want to be happy in this world...give up. Submit, and recognize that the life of a useful slave is still a useful life.


Shakespeare, on behalf of his NPC Macbeth wrote:

To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,

Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

(ref.), bold mine.

Yeah, folks have been complaining about how the man's out to get them going on for a long, long time.

Sieglord wrote:
If you want to be happy in this world...give up. Submit, and recognize that the life of a useful slave is still a useful life.

I think you're very-double-plus-strong-bad-wrong here, Sieglord.

I think if you want to be happy in this world, you need to start with yourself, and work outward.

But that's me. :D

-- Andy


Sieglord wrote:


Nothing is going to "fall apart"...their hegemony, their control, will only tighten. If you want to be happy in this world...give up. Submit, and recognize that the life of a useful slave is still a useful life.

[bubble bubble bubble]


Well, I'm not quite going to do NOTHING. Its just that I'm not going to waste my effort trying to change a system that is ancient, massive, and deeply rooted. Its like winter. I can try to heave the entire earth and tilt it so that everyone gets an equal amount of warmth, or I can cut fire wood and build an igloo to keep someone alive.

A little bit of something is better than a whole lot of nothing.


Quote:
Vote wisely. Listen patiently. Debate courteously. Reasearch regularly.

Vote democrat.

Try to figure out why anyone wouldn't vote democrat.
Try to persuade people to vote democrat.
Show people why they should vote democrat.


Hudax wrote:
Quote:
Vote wisely. Listen patiently. Debate courteously. Reasearch regularly.

Vote democrat.

Try to figure out why anyone wouldn't vote democrat.
Try to persuade people to vote democrat.
Show people why they should vote democrat.

It doesn't work. The reasons are emotional, not rational.


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Hudax wrote:
Quote:
Vote wisely. Listen patiently. Debate courteously. Reasearch regularly.

Vote democrat.

Try to figure out why anyone wouldn't vote democrat.
Try to persuade people to vote democrat.
Show people why they should vote democrat.

...as though "Democrat" were somehow any different than "Republican"...

"The chief problem of American political life for a long time has been how to make the two Congressional parties more national and international. The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to the doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead the two parties should be almost identical, so the that American people can 'throw the rascals out' at any election without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy."

Prof. Carrol Quigley, "Tragedy and Hope"

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sieglord wrote:

So...what? There's all this railing against governments and corporations (and the cozy relationships they enjoy)...but no so much on the subject of how to create lasting, effective change.

So...What are you going to do about it?

I'm going to practise my Neutral Jinn

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sieglord wrote:

Instead the two parties should be almost identical, so the that American people can 'throw the rascals out' at any election without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy."

For all intents and purposes... the two parties (and most of the so-called Independents) ARE identical once the campaign rhetoric is scraped off.


Identical, really?

This is shown by what's happened in the states which switched to full Republican control last year? Wisconsin, Ohio?

I'm still disappointed by Democrats in many ways, especially on the national level, but there are real differences.


It's the difference between getting screwed and getting f$+&ed.


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Vote Libertarian.
Try to figure out why anyone wouldn't vote Libertarian.
Try to persuade people to vote Libertarian.
Show people why they should vote Libertarian

BTW love the meme that voting Democrat is somehow logical and perfectly rational while voting Republican is irrational and emotional. Motes, beams, and such....


Freehold DM wrote:
Vote wisely.

I think it's important to compare and contrast examine the candidates, rather than base one's choice the single criteria of the candidate's party affiliation (or lack thereof).

As Freehold DM typed earlier, "Vote wisely."

Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
It's the difference between getting screwed and getting f@*%ed.

Yep, sometimes the "wise" choice comes down to "Which of these candidates is the least worse?"

Or which one offers lubricant.

-- Andy

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thejeff wrote:

Identical, really?

This is shown by what's happened in the states which switched to full Republican control last year? Wisconsin, Ohio?

I'm still disappointed by Democrats in many ways, especially on the national level, but there are real differences.

The difference in this case is strategic. Since unions are a major source of Democratic funding, the Republicans are looking to starve them out by busting them, a strategy that's meeting with a good deal of success.

Here's how both parties try to control elections.

Republicans typically put up poll taxes, spurious ID checks, or in at least a couple of cases, phony voter registration booths, in order to decrease the number of minority voters in populations they suspect vote more Democrat than Republican.

Democrats on the other hand work by eliminating progressive choices so that the only ones that minorities have to vote for are relatively ineffectual choices like Clinton or Obama. So if you're a minority, one party tries to keep you from voting, the other does it's best to eliminate your choices.

But if you go beyond specific examples like Wisconsin and look at overall Presidential Policy, both Obama and Clinton make Richard Nixon look like a hippy leftie liberal.


LazarX wrote:


The difference in this case is strategic. Since unions are a major source of Democratic funding, the Republicans are looking to starve them out by busting them, a strategy that's meeting with a good deal of success.

Here's how both parties try to control elections.

Republicans typically put up poll taxes, spurious ID checks, or in at least a couple of cases, phony voter registration booths, in order to decrease the number of minority voters in populations they suspect vote more Democrat than Republican.

Democrats on the other hand work by eliminating progressive choices so that the only ones that minorities have to vote for are relatively ineffectual choices like Clinton or Obama. So if you're a minority, one party tries to keep you from voting, the other does it's best to eliminate your choices.

But if you go beyond specific examples like Wisconsin and look at overall Presidential Policy, both Obama and Clinton make Richard Nixon look like a hippy leftie liberal.

But people still get screwed over by eliminating unions. That's not just a political gambit, though it is that too. It has real effects on people.

I certainly agree that the political debate has shifted far to the right since Nixon. (Though Nixon had some other charming traits that would make him stand out even today.) You could argue that Nixon was about as far right as the political climate would let him be then and Obama and Clinton were as far left as they could be now. It's also not true on all issues. Even Bush couldn't be as openly racist as Nixon was. And there's no comparison on GLBT issues.

But yes, the similarities are more evident on the Presidential level. Foreign policy and broad economic policy are where the consensus is deepest. Though Republicans are pushing back on that. Democrats are pushing for half-measures that will help the economy at least a little. Far too many Republicans are advocating "Let it burn!"

At the state level and in local Congressional races there are more differences. That's where it really can make a difference. A primary challenge can actually succeed and even win the seat. The Tea Party found that out, though they lost some safe seats too. If more progressives can get in at that level, that builds a better bench of support for higher level offices. It does matter.

Focusing only on the President obscures that.


On the whole union thing:

I don't have the state by state breakdowns, but while the Republican governors have been figuratively breaking heads, the Democrats have been much more quietly achieving the same ends. In Massachusetts, New Jersey, and probably a lot of other states, public-sector unions have been forced to give the same concessions that are being wrested in Wisconsin and Ohio.

I am not denying that there are subtle differences between the parties, but in the final analysis, they are both like Orson Scott Card's Hamlet Snr.: all they want to do is bugger you for eternity.

(My apologies to those who enjoy consensual buggery for my poor choice of simile.)

Shadow Lodge

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Hudax wrote:
Quote:
Vote wisely. Listen patiently. Debate courteously. Reasearch regularly.

Vote democrat.

Try to figure out why anyone wouldn't vote democrat.
Try to persuade people to vote democrat.
Show people why they should vote democrat.

Sorry, I know too many corrupt Democrats.

I vote for good people, not good parties. I have to do more research than whether or not there's a little (D) after their name, but it's worth it, every time.


I keep doing the research too, but I don't know why I bother. Over the last decade or so, the things the Republicans are promising to do are all so much worse that even when the Democrats break their promises they're still better.
Even when an individual Democratic Congressman is bad and his Republican opponent seems decent, he'd still help swing the balance in his Chamber and that might put some scary people in power.

I focus on primaries. That's where you might have the chance at a decent candidate.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

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I am ready, willing, and able to serve as a dictator. I won't even lie to you about being a benevolent dictator. Oh no. I will be petty and capricious, slaughtering hundreds of thousands to build my gold plated palace on top of the St. Louis Arch. I will go from town to town, personally insulting the residents and advising them not to reproduce lest their inbred, moron genes further degrade the human race. I will re-name the state of Pennsylvania "West Assylvania" and re-name Florida "Derp, Derp."

I will combine the months of February, March, April and May into a single huge mega-month, henceforth to be known as Ponytary.

I will lead an army of trained hillbilly monkeys, armed with moonshine and pungent body oder, on a campaign to liberate and reclaim Quebec from Canada. Then, I will make speaking French a capital offense.

The streets will run red with the blood of my enemies, the people standing near my enemies, and their pets.

Ask yourself - why am I not part of the revolution that will ultimately install Sebastian as "Supreme Dictator for Life, B%!$#es". Only when you answer that question can true change begin.

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