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Combat Reflexes (Combat)
You can make additional attacks of opportunity.
Benefit: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity per round equal to your Dexterity bonus. With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Fighter with Combat Reflexes Dex 14(+2) = 3 attacks of Opportunities per round.
I had this situation on the last game session.
Players Roll Initiative
Round 1 Starts
Cleric Turn
Monster 1 Turn
Monster 2 Turn
Monster 3 Turn
Fighter Turn
Wizard Turn
Monster 4 Turn
End of Round 1
Round 2 Starts
Cleric Turn
Monster 1 Turn
Monster 2 Turn
Monster 3 Turn
Fighter Turn
Wizard Turn
Monster 4 Turn
End of Round 2
Lets say that Monster 1, 2 and 3 provoke an attack of Opportunity from the Fighter which have a Maximum of 3 Attacks of Opportunities.
All of these attacks were made before his turn because Combat Reflex allows it.
So lets say now that Monster 4 also provokes an attack of Opportunity from the fighter. Would the Fighter be able to have/use attacks of Opportunities again since his passed his turn? (he got back all 3 atatcks of Opportunities?)
Or The Fighter recover all of his attacks of Opportunities after Round 2 of combat had Started? Because if the fighter gets back all his 3 attacks of Opportunities after his turn, then it still be the same 1st round of combat, so it wouldnt make sense he can keep doing Attacks of Opportunities.
The attack of opportunities don't reset until the beginning of round 2.
In other words the 4th monster would not get attacked.
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Actually, rounds are counted from the beginning of your turn. If you have an ability that lasts one round, then it resets at the beginning of your turn.
The rules don't really cover which round the extra attacks draw from, though, so it's tricky. Concerro's position is entirely legitimate, and probably the best way to rule it, though. Even though your rounds "reset" (grant new AoOs, fast healing, etc) at the beginning of your turn, ruling any other way would give Combat Reflexes characters double the AoOs for round 1. That seems a bit much in my mind.
It's clunky, but AoOs only reset on your second turn. Even the top of round 2 would leave you with no more to make until your turn came to pass again.
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Actually Concerro has the right of it. Although odd, attacks of opportunity are on a round-to-round basis, not a turn-to-turn. In other words, attacks of opportunity "Reset" at the beginning of a round of combat, not at the beginning of a character's turn.
Also, this does NOT grant Combat Reflexes characters double AoOs in round 1 as Alorha claimed. They simply get to start using theirs early.
Actually, rounds are counted from the beginning of your turn. If you have an ability that lasts one round, then it resets at the beginning of your turn.
The rules don't really cover which round the extra attacks draw from, though, so it's tricky. Concerro's position is entirely legitimate, and probably the best way to rule it, though. Even though your rounds "reset" (grant new AoOs, fast healing, etc) at the beginning of your turn, ruling any other way would give Combat Reflexes characters double the AoOs for round 1. That seems a bit much in my mind.
It's clunky, but AoOs only reset on your second turn. Even the top of round 2 would leave you with no more to make until your turn came to pass again.
Since you can take AoO's before your turn that can't be true though. Combat Reflexes starts at the beginning of every round. If it did not then you could not take those AoO's before your turn came up in round 1.
Combat Reflexes starts at the beginning of every round.Combat Reflexes, as well as normal AoO's.
:D
I know. I was just using CR as my main point. :)
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Here's my problem, the rules say
When the rules refer to a “full round”, they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
There is no real "start of the round" after combat, just a cycle to the top. The only time you look at a new round for your character is at the beginning of each turn.
They don't say that things reset at the top of the round. In fact, it's been clarified that immediate actions are only regained after the end of your next turn. That's how I see AoOs.
The fact you can make them at the start of the round is an explicit exception to the normal rule, which is why it has to be shoehorned in. Normally, you don't get another AoO until you take another turn.
That means either Combat Reflexes grants double AoOs for the first round, if the number resets on your first turn, or you claim that the ones made before your first turn were taken from those allowed by that turn, sort of like an immediate action, meaning you get more your second turn.
It's your turn that determines these things. Nowhere is it mentioned that the top of the round changes anything insofar as new actions or AoOs are concerned. So, too with spells of limited duration. The rules only care which initiative count they were cast on, not when the GM goes to the top of the round.
Yeah. AoOs reset every combat round. It's only spells and the like with rounds per level for effects that begin and end on your turn.
Also, keep in mind that just because you can take an AoO, doesn't mean you have to. If for some reason the Fighter in your scenario thought it might be worth saving an AoO for Monster 4 instead of attacking Monsters 1-3, he could very well do that.
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Yeah. AoOs reset every combat round. It's only spells and the like with rounds per level for effects that begin and end on your turn.
Also, keep in mind that just because you can take an AoO, doesn't mean you have to. If for some reason the Fighter in your scenario thought it might be worth saving an AoO for Monster 4 instead of attacking Monsters 1-3, he could very well do that.
Where does it say combat round? Not saying you're wrong, but I couldn't find that.
EDIT: here's all I see
Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round.
...
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Ref lexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round.
I can't find any mention of combat rounds, and the only definition of the measure of a round is the one I found above.
Attacks of Opportunity
"Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn)."
So yes the round does exist and the count is reset at the top of the round (I was surprised as well). Most GMs I play with reset at the start of your action. This does allow for more AoOs in the first round of combat, but they are rare.
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"Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn)."
So yes the round does exist and the count is reset at the top of the round (I was surprised as well). Most GMs I play with reset at the start of your action. This does allow for more AoOs in the first round of combat, but they are rare.
I don't follow how your bolded text leads to that conclusion. All that means is it explicitly doesn't require you to forgo attacks on your turn, otherwise confused players might see their BAB only giving one attack and assume that they'd have to choose between AoOs and normal attacks.
I don't see any mention of timing there.
@Alorha: I suppose it doesn't explicitly say so, but it's just a logical assumption based on the text... that David just provided. When it says "even if you've already attacked in a round", I think most people assume that means a round of combat, which is highest initiative to lowest initiative. Of all the mentions of "round" in the text, though, I guess you could assume "round" to be either way. Everyone I've ever played with seems to think the same way as me about this topic. That doesn't mean it's correct, but it has always been the norm for me.
Here's my problem, the rules say
When the rules refer to a “full round”, they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.There is no real "start of the round" after combat, just a cycle to the top. The only time you look at a new round for your character is at the beginning of each turn.
They don't say that things reset at the top of the round. In fact, it's been clarified that immediate actions are only regained after the end of your next turn. That's how I see AoOs.
The fact you can make them at the start of the round is an explicit exception to the normal rule, which is why it has to be shoehorned in. Normally, you don't get another AoO until you take another turn.
That means either Combat Reflexes grants double AoOs for the first round, if the number resets on your first turn, or you claim that the ones made before your first turn were taken from those allowed by that turn, sort of like an immediate action, meaning you get more your second turn.
It's your turn that determines these things. Nowhere is it mentioned that the top of the round changes anything insofar as new actions or AoOs are concerned. So, too with spells of limited duration. The rules only care which initiative count they were cast on, not when the GM goes to the top of the round.
AoO's are not effects, nor are they immediate actions. They don't have a timer built it in like spells do.
I am going to have to take a close look at this, but I always ran it that it resets on your turn, not the beginning of the round.
To be clear on something, you can't normally take AoO's before your first action in round 1 if you are flat footed correct?
That is correct, but you can't do anything before your first turn.
Every character acts in round one, and then round 2 starts, and so on. AoO's work on a per round basis and round 2 starts for everyone at the same time.
I agree with most others. AoO reset at the top of the new round, not at the beginning of the players next turn. Here is my reasoning.
Round: Combat is measured in rounds. During an individual round, all creatures have a chance to take a turn to act, in order of initiative. A round represents 6 seconds in the game world.
Straight from the PRD. A round is a defined length of time in which all creatures have acted. Therefor there is a defined point at which the next round begins (When the creature who went first begins there second turn). This is the point at which the AoO resets.
Yes. This is where I wanted to get with this question to show my players that there are things round to round and others are turn to turn based.
Thanks for all the feedback guys ^^.
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For me a Round is 6 seconds of time, now that can be measured from the highest initiative result or from any characters turn.
So
Initiative - Character
21 - Cleric Turn
18 - Monster 1 Turn
16 - Monster 2 Turn
15 - Monster 3 Turn
11 - Fighter Turn
7 - Wizard Turn
3 - Monster 4 Turn
So a Round of combat would be from initiative count 21 on the first round, to count 21 on the second round. This is usually what we measure when we say a combat lasted 5 rounds.
But a Round can also be counted from the Fighter's turn on initiative count 11 to initiative count 11 on the next round. Still a 6 second time period and still a round and this is what I use to measure effects, for example a wizard casting a spell with a casting time of 1 round has it begin on his turn in one round and complete on his action the next round - the spell doesn't suddenly go off at the top of the initiative roster.
I have always interpreted it that your AoOs effectively reset on your turn and last for one round (normally until your next turn unless you delay or something).
So the way I interpret it in combat round 1 the fighter cannot make AoOs against Monster 1, 2 or 3 because he is flatfooted. He could make an AoO against Monster 4 if is provokes.
In the second round of combat the fighter could make an AoO against MOnster 1 and 2 if they provoke, but not 3 if he previously made the AoO against monster 4 as he doesn't have enough left. In the fighter's turn his AoO refreshes and he could make an AoO on Monster 4 in the second round of combat.
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I've played with about 40 different DMs/GMs. I've had one rule that AoOs start at the "start of the round" and all others reset AoOs on the character's turn. If your mileage varies, this may be something that has some regional variance.
While characters cannot normally act before their first turn, Combat Reflexes allows a character to take AoOs when flat-footed. Thus, a character with combat reflexes can make AoOs prior to their action in the surprise round and/or first round of combat.
Rounds have two definitions, in the same way that when talking about time, an hour has two different meanings. There is a objective start to the round; a new round starts for every character at that point. There is also a relative round, which is the time from a character's turn to his next turn.
Which definition is in use here is a grey area. However, from a game mastery standpoint, pretty much EVERYTHING counts time in a relative sense. It is consistent to count AoOs as resetting on the acting character's turn. From a design standpoint, there is no reason to view AoOs as resetting for all characters at an arbitrary point in time, such as the start of the round; it isn't as though this is a boxing round. In addition, doing so creates some really odd situations from a timing perspective.
The situation with Combat Reflexes and the character's ability to take AoOs prior to his first action is the exception, and shouldn't be the tail the wags the dog. Personally, I would play out OP's scenario as allowing the AoO on monster 4, counting as 1 of the PC's AoOs that reset at the start of his turn; in other words, the first three came prior to his turn, the 4th was the first of his personal round. It is a rare situation and sometimes, an oddity has to just be handled as an exception. An alternative would be to count that character's AoOs as starting at the top of the round (or at the init of the first monster)...this, to me, introduces more problems than it solves.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Perhaps it would be reasonable to limit AoO's relative to each other? I.e., if you make your first AoO during Monster 1's turn, then you count 1 round from there to determine how many AoO's you have left. Then you gain back AoO's as "old" ones pass out of the span of a round. Sort of like if you mapped out a timeline of the multiple rounds of combat and had a one-round bracket that you slid down the line - as long as there are never more AoO's within the bracket than what you're allowed, you're good.
This would avoid awkward situations where you take all three of your AoO's for one round at the end of it (i.e., right before it resets), and then take all three of your next batch of AoO's right after the reset, thus resulting in a situation where less than one full round has passed and yet during that time you've performed double your allotment of AoO's. Both of the round-counting methods described in this thread (top of the round versus turn-to-turn) would allow that type of situation.
On the other hand, the method I proposed could potentially be a lot of work. :P
I realize it may not be strictly RAW, but I would agree with the folks here to orient a player's AoO's per round as relative to their turn.
It just seems to be simpler and make more sense that way. I think it makes more sense from a player's perspective that way, too.
But again, maybe that's against strict RAW. At this point - given the arguments on this thread - I see no reason to change my interpretation.
Everything else works on a your turn basis, i don't see any reason to treat this differently.
Everything else works on a your turn basis, i don't see any reason to treat this differently.
That's kind of the way I'm looking at this. If you activate an ability that lasts rounds they are ticked off at the start of your initiative each turn. Even if, say, you delay. Same with spells, same with poisons, or status effects gained from say Stunning Assault.
You get one immediate action per round. Could you use an immediate action on initiative 0 of round one and then on initiative 30 the next round?
I think someone has to do some searching because I could swear this topic came up before and was officially answered.
Since you can take AoO's before your turn that can't be true though. Combat Reflexes starts at the beginning of every round. If it did not then you could not take those AoO's before your turn came up in round 1.
[in a followup post] AoO's are not effects,
These points are determinative imo.
The rule is: "most characters can only make one per round". The "round" they're referring to has to be the round of combat, not the turn to turn "full rounds" effects are timed on, for the reasons stated.
I was right this was answered last year by SKR
AOOs reset on the acting character's turn. Otherwise it would be possible for a character to make 2 AOOs between two of his turns, simply because of where he falls in the initiative order.
It's generally also easier to remember "I've taken an AOO since my last turn" compared to "I've taken an AOO since the last arbitrary reset point in the initiative where we stopped counting low and started counting high again." Especially when you take into account actions like Ready and Delay that change your location in the initiative.
I was right this was answered last year by SKR
AOOs reset on the acting character's turn. Otherwise it would be possible for a character to make 2 AOOs between two of his turns, simply because of where he falls in the initiative order.
It's generally also easier to remember "I've taken an AOO since my last turn" compared to "I've taken an AOO since the last arbitrary reset point in the initiative where we stopped counting low and started counting high again." Especially when you take into account actions like Ready and Delay that change your location in the initiative.
This seems to contradict my interpretation of How Combat Works, though. It really seems to imply to me that AoOs and combat rounds are relative. I know this guy is the developer, but as the developer he should have made sure that the rules were easier for everyone to understand and interpret the same way.
I was right this was answered last year by SKR
AOOs reset on the acting character's turn. Otherwise it would be possible for a character to make 2 AOOs between two of his turns, simply because of where he falls in the initiative order.
It's generally also easier to remember "I've taken an AOO since my last turn" compared to "I've taken an AOO since the last arbitrary reset point in the initiative where we stopped counting low and started counting high again." Especially when you take into account actions like Ready and Delay that change your location in the initiative.
HAH wow, I wonder if he's really thought that through.
Like in the OP here, he's swapping possibly taking all AoO between turns for (with combat reflexes) potentially letting someone take 6, 8 or more AoOs on the first round.
Given how important the first round can be, and how much movement to targets it entails, this ruling really enables what he seems he wanted to limit.
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HAH wow, I wonder if he's really thought that through.
Like in the OP here, he's swapping possibly taking all AoO between turns for (with combat reflexes) potentially letting someone take 6, 8 or more AoOs on the first round.
Given how important the first round can be, and how much movement to targets it entails, this ruling really enables what he seems he wanted to limit.
Because we've all been in round one of combat and seen 8 potential provocations go by and wished we had combat reflexes.
Seriously, how many AoO's have you EVER gotten (or could even feasibly imagine) in round 1 of a combat?
HAH wow, I wonder if he's really thought that through.
Like in the OP here, he's swapping possibly taking all AoO between turns for (with combat reflexes) potentially letting someone take 6, 8 or more AoOs on the first round.
Given how important the first round can be, and how much movement to targets it entails, this ruling really enables what he seems he wanted to limit.
Right, but from the perspective of the player, he's not getting 6 or 8 in a given 'round'. He's instead getting 3 or 4 between combat-start and his turn, then he's getting 3 or 4 between his first set of actions and his second set of actions.
So, he's no - relative to his character's actions - he is not getting two sets of AoO's in one round. He's getting one AoO before his actions, then one AoO against another of his own 'turns'.
The problem here isn't someone getting book keeping. The RAW doesn't say when Combat Reflexes reset so you can't have a wrong answer so the issue becomes book keeping.
I think it's easier to reset them by when the character acts when everything else resets, but that's just my thoughts.