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I am trying to understand the ins and outs of high fantasy, as opposed to normal games. I know that the players get more points for the point buy system, and they get more treasure, and the NPC characters get a little more loot. Is there something I'm missing? It would have been nice if all this was put in one place instead of spread all over the book. Assuming my list is comprehensive, I have a few issues...
All the changes seem to benefit the PCs, but I see nothing in the "Designing Encounters" section that tells me to adjust the difficulty of the monster fights. So is high fantasy just a way to make the game easier for the players? They get all this extra gold and higher abilities, but fight the same old goblins that "regular" 15 point buy characters get? That doesn't sound right.
Now, I know that NPCs get double the gear value on 14-9, which makes them tougher. Fine, fair enough if you are making your own NPC's, but what if you are using a monster out of the Bestiary(s)? They are designed for standard fantasy right? How do you adjust them? I appreciate your "here's how I do it" advice I REALLY do, but I'm looking for a rule or something in the published materials. Thanks a lot guys.
Help Please??
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High Fantasy is just a sub-genre of fantasy fiction, as explained by the all-knowing Wiki here.
In terms of Ability Score buy in Pathfinder, it's really just how many points you want to PCs to have. You can easily play a 'low fantasy' point buy in a high fantasy sub-genre campaign setting... which is, admittedly, a little confusing.
Take Conan, for example. Conan lives in a classic 'low fantasy' setting, but in Pathfinder terms he's likely built on a high fantasy or even epic fantasy points value.
It may not be related to your points buy question (but there is a good deal of logic to a consolidated campaign idea book or chapter of a book). it seems that they way its used in the book is to define how easily you should be able to overcome level appropriate encounters and challenges. the higher the stats and amounts of gear the easier that should be (in theory).
I tend to define it in the vein of how common is this event to occur in your game: Do Characters and other people get to fly dragons?
A) That would never happen dragons are rare and generally leave the humanoids alone other than tribute. Low fantasy which in and of itself can have various permutations in the same way low magic can.
B) You have to be a special individual and generally world shaping to be able to do this. Probably regular fantasy. Again various permutations.
C) Kingdom X has a special order (read prestige class) of heroes who are bonded dragon riders. Now you are pushing into high fantasy. Again various permutations.
D) Every first level PC and major NPC has a dragon at their beck and call at all times. Epic-ly High Fantasy or a Monty Haul type game. Again various permutations.
In other words how much of the magic wells that ask for your right eye in return for knowledge, magic spindles that make the fated princess sleep until true love comes do you have in your game? PF is on the High end of fantasy (actually Magical Realism as a genre identifier may work better) in general.
I am trying to understand the ins and outs of high fantasy
I thought it was just when you played at 4:20.
(Somebody had to go there).
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I like the way you put it Dragonsong!
Yeah, in very basic terms on the fantasy genre scale 'low fantasy' is more 'realistic' (or, at least, 'action movie' realistic...), and high fantasy is more 'fantastic'.
It doesn't relate to the Ability Score points-buy in the slightest, however... it's just a confusing shared use of the term.
So, yes, the higher your PC points-value the easier the game is for them.
There are a few other things to consider as well though. Lower points value buys tend to favour SAD (Single Ability Dependent) characters - like Wizards, who only need Intelligence to be the best Wizards they can be, anything else is gravy. High points buys tend to favour MAD (Multiple Ability Dependent) characters - like the melee types (who generally need some Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution to do their jobs), and the melee plus types (like Monks and Paladins) who need the Ability Scores the pure melee guys need... plus another score or two as well (such as Wisdom or Charisma).
Also, the regular and heroic NPC creation rules are not saying that you should use regular NPCs in a 15 point buy game and heroic NPCs in a 25 point buy game. Rather, you should be using both in both games. If you want someone to just be a mook, then build him with the regular stats. If you want him to be special, though, give him the heroic stats and equipment. They aren't high/low fantasy, but rather "ordinary" people and "special" people.
I am trying to understand the ins and outs of high fantasy, as opposed to normal games. I know that the players get more points for the point buy system, and they get more treasure, and the NPC characters get a little more loot. Is there something I'm missing? It would have been nice if all this was put in one place instead of spread all over the book. Assuming my list is comprehensive, I have a few issues...
All the changes seem to benefit the PCs, but I see nothing in the "Designing Encounters" section that tells me to adjust the difficulty of the monster fights. So is high fantasy just a way to make the game easier for the players? They get all this extra gold and higher abilities, but fight the same old goblins that "regular" 15 point buy characters get? That doesn't sound right.
Now, I know that NPCs get double the gear value on 14-9, which makes them tougher. Fine, fair enough if you are making your own NPC's, but what if you are using a monster out of the Bestiary(s)? They are designed for standard fantasy right? How do you adjust them? I appreciate your "here's how I do it" advice I REALLY do, but I'm looking for a rule or something in the published materials. Thanks a lot guys.
That is because there is no hard and fast rule for this. Giving the players more gear and higher stats does not mean the characters will be inherently more powerful then they would have been otherwise, or 'too powerful' for normal npcs/monsters.
The choices of class/feats/other character options, matter infinately more then stats and starting gear. Groups that dont optimize(actively try to take the most effective choices for their characters) wont see a big change in character power. Heavy optimizing groups will see a sizable boost in power (though more from the point buy increase then the starting gear which ends up insignificant after a few levels).
We can give you general advice, but as a dm, you will have to sort out how much you need to do to challenge your party on your own. For instance, a 25 pointbuy double gear party of 3rogues and a [paizo]vow of poverty monk will not be anywhere near as powerful (in the majority of cases, a gain optimization matters here) as a 15 point party made up of a summoner, a druid, a wizard, and a bard. You will just have to feel it out as you go along, even if you are running a published adventure, you will have to adjust it to be a proper challenge for your party.
I guess to answer this I'll first give an example of low fantasy.
But specifically low fantasy low personal magic you can have one without the other.
But specifically low fantasy low personal magic you can have one without the other.
I guess to answer this I'll first give an example of low fantasy.
Indeed, a world can be low magic (with the ability to cast a single cantrip is a miracle/amazing), and high fantasy (with dragons and aberations walking down the street).
But I think the OP is less interested in the philosophical implications, and more so in the mechanical implications of the rules associated with each.
But specifically low fantasy low personal magic you can have one without the other.
I guess to answer this I'll first give an example of low fantasy.Indeed, a world can be low magic (with the ability to cast a single cantrip is a miracle/amazing), and high fantasy (with dragons and aberations walking down the street).
But I think the OP is less interested in the philosophical implications, and more so in the mechanical implications of the rules associated with each.
I think you are correct however with the misuse of the term by PF in the character creation section between your OP and mine is about as close as we can get to answering that at least until that settings/ genre book you, me, and several others keep asking for comes out.
I am trying to understand the ins and outs of high fantasy, as opposed to normal games. I know that the players get more points for the point buy system, and they get more treasure, and the NPC characters get a little more loot. Is there something I'm missing?
I don't think you are missing anything. The low/standard/high/epic fantasy designations are just labels for point buys. The higher you go, the more capable the PCs. It can be a tool to help craft the power of the PCs to keep them challenged with published material. I wouldn't read more into it than that though.
But I think the OP is less interested in the philosophical implications, and more so in the mechanical implications of the rules associated with each.
This
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it is coming up on my turn to run again and I still don't really get this concept. I run for a group of guys who like to exploit the rules to make their characters as powerful as possible. I like to give myself every advantage I can to make it challenging for them within the rules. As I understand it the Core Rulebook mentions "high fantasy" a few times in different chapters...
...pg 16 table 1-2 (PCs should get 20 pts to spend in high fantasy)
...pg 400 second paragraph says that the amount of expected treasure per level could be as much as DOUBLE!! what the 12-4 chart says if it is a "high fantasy" campaign.
...pg 453-454 Under the "step 6" entry I am supposed to double the value of gear I give an NPC character if it is a high fantasy game..
So the book tells me how to beef up the characters, how to make my "home-made" NPCs beefier to meet the challenge and what to do in terms of rewarding the PCs. I still don't understand what is MECHANICALLY meant by "High Fantasy" though... Yes I get that there are more magic items and creatures and the world is more fantastic. Those are very abstract concepts though to apply to something as concrete as "double the amount of treasure you expect a PC to have".
The issue is that the CRB doesn't tell me how to adjust encounters (im talking chapter 12 page 397 here) to make it a high fantasy game. It doesnt say for example "use the Hard encounter on chart 12-1 as the norm for high fantasy campaigns". Is there some rule like that that I am missing somewhere?
I don't want to "accidentally" run a high fantasy campaign and not reward my PCs enough, nor make it to easy on them. I get how to make NPCs appropriate for my PCs, double their gear and then adjust other treasure rewards as needed to satisfy the "double 12-4" rule I mentioned earlier, BUT the real questions is How do I adjust the encounter level of the monsters themselves in the bestiary to high fantasy level?
I did find on page 15 where it says that average player gets 15 points in the point buy system and average NPCs get 3 (under the purchase section). I assume that the monsters in the Bestiary are average and use 3 points. Following that ratio, a High Fantasy PC with 20 pt. buy, should face monsters built using 4 pt buy right?
Is the simple solution then to only run a standard 15 pt. buy and use monsters straight out of the Bestiary? Are the monsters in the Bestiary geared towards 15 pt buy PCs? Is the the only way to technically and mathmatically for certain run a high fantasy campaign to home make every NPC the PCs fight as per pg 453?
I'm not afraid to guesstimate, or settle for "close enough" but I like to make sure I have a hard as rock grasp on the RAW before I start dancing around them. If you read this whole thing thanks for your attention and any help you can offer.
TL;DR How do I adjust monsters out the Bestiary and/or encounters to make sure they are "high fantasy".-
But I think the OP is less interested in the philosophical implications, and more so in the mechanical implications of the rules associated with each.This
But there isn't any. It's purely a term to describe the kind of story that is told.
But there isn't any. It's purely a term to describe the kind of story that is told.But I think the OP is less interested in the philosophical implications, and more so in the mechanical implications of the rules associated with each.This
then why do I have to adjust loot, Npc gear, and point buy allowance??
There is no definite need to change your encounters based on point buy and loot. It's more about what feeling the players will have about the game. High fantasy means that they play fantastical heroes. Low fantasy means that they will barely scrape by and have their backs against the wall at all times.
Low point buy encourages munchkinism which you have implied that your players enjoy, so I think it would be a good bet. You can alter the CR of encounters of course but that ends up being basically the same as playing low fantasy, as your group will walk a tightrope over a chasm of TPK.
TL;DR Run the monsters as-is and set the point buy and loot based on how much of a challenge your players want.
So, the rules for high fantasy then, are to simply make it easier on the PCs? Make the feel more powerful?
I think whoever put that stuff into the books made a mistake. It doesn't seem as if there is actually any real concept behind it.
It seems to assume that High Fantasy merely means that PCs are much larger than life with great power and lots of cool stuff.
What they in fact seem to be meaning is the Difficulty of the game. Instead of calling it Low or High Fantasy, they should have called it Very Hard and Medium difficulty.
The idea seems to be that in high fantasy heroes usually face no real difficulty and chance of loosing, while in low fantasy it's much more common that heroes die or can't stop the villain.
I'd say don't adjust for anything. What they really are meaning is difficulty, not fantasy genres, and in what they call "High Fantasy" things are supposed to be easier, so you have to work less and take fewer risks to get more levels and treasure.
So, the rules for high fantasy then, are to simply make it easier on the PCs? Make the feel more powerful?Generally, yes. But, it depends on your party as well. That's what makes it a bit tricky. For example, a 10 point buy wizard with a bunch of item creation feats will not be that much worse off than a 20 point buy wizard. However, an archer build will struggle. A monk will feel the pain. Many concepts are hard to pull off at lower point buy.
Actually, one can make the case that monks are relatively better off under a lower point buy system, because they benefit more by spreading their few points out. 14/14/12/10/10/8 is decent for a low-power monk, whereas a character that could dump more stats would be 16/10/10/10/10/10, 18/10/9/8/8/8, or something like that. Slight improvement in their prime stat, for a massive hit in the rest. (Obviously, you can optimize more than my off-the-top-of-my-head numbers). In high stat games, where you can have multiple 18s, monks start pulling ahead also, because they benefit more from having more points than a character that's already maxed its best stat. It's only in the middle of the range, where you can max one or keep a few at decent, that monks get the short end of the stick.
High fantasy is purely about the players having fun. It has to do with the way you are running the game. Is it important that you challenge them for every fight? You are running the game for the players not against the players. It is all right to let them be bad asses, and weld the +5 sword wading through the waves of monsters.
The guys would love it and the night and comraderie at the table will be at an all time high. That is what epic is about.
I am tired of all the 'fair and balance'. Sometimes you want to be Elric with a sword that kills everyone.
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Literally, High Fantasy is a work that involves a time or place where the 'real world' does not exist. Examples: Dragonlance, the world of A Song of Fire and Ice/Game of Thrones.
Low Fantasy is a work where the fantasy world exists within or alongside the real world. Example: Lord of the Rings and Conan are both set (technically) on earth.. in a hypothetical 'lost' pre-historic past. Another example: In Zelazny's Princes of Amber series, the earth we know is just one of an infinite 'false' dimensions reflecting Amber. Another example: Harry Potter's wizarding 'world within a world'.
The literal definition is often ignored though.. most would call LOTR 'High Fantasy', for example. It's often used as what appears to be a contraction for "High Adventure in a Fantasy Setting", and imo that's what most people consider it to mean.
I think the problem you are having is there is no written and defined rule for 'high fantasy'. It's what you and your group decide is fun.
If that entails powerful characters of fantastical races (dwarves, catfolk or angelic bloodline elves or whatever) wielding the mighty macguffin of worldsaving and saving the world...a lot, then that is how to run 'high fantasy' for you.
My advice is not to get bogged down in the rules.
They are just a tool to help expedite your imagination into form to share with your friends.
Heh when I was a young adult experimenting we had a house rule... The GM could not drink or smoke anything!
What an outrage! I'd never GM for you landlubbers! A wretched lot ye be! Arr!
Low Fantasy is a work where the fantasy world exists within or alongside the real world. Example: Lord of the Rings and Conan are both set (technically) on earth.. in a hypothetical 'lost' pre-historic past.
Which very often overlaps with Sword and Sorcerery. But not always, as in the case of Harry Potter.