Jesus,
Why do these threads always devolve into Caster God/Melee Dung discussions?
It's very simple :
If a caster can get his pants on, then he wins. Why does not everyone play casters? Because if the caster doesn't get his pants on, he's squishy jam on toast.
Every one of these utterly ridiculous discussions assumes the caster has infinite ability to cast any spell on their list. In that case, yes, they are gods and always win everything. It's simply not true. Being able to cast fly doesn't help if one didn't memorize it. Nor does the ability to cast it if you used the only one you memorized earlier in the day. For spontaneous, you have a limited list of spells you know, but you can cast them any time you want, so did you go blaster, utility, battle control, or balanced?
The point being nobody ever convinces anyone else of anything in these stupid arguments, because the 'Wizard God' group assumes the caster has exactly the right spell at exactly the right time every time, and that is simply hogwash.
The 'Melee Awesome' group assumes the caster never has the right spell at the right time, or he's already used it. This of course, is just as much hogwash as the other group.
Both groups are basically self delusional. The truth is, no melee guy is going to have exactly the right thing every time, and no caster is going to have exactly the right thing every time.
Melee : A melee guy is consistently going to have a specific set of tools every time. That's the point of a non-caster, they can't warp reality, but they are very consistent in what they can do. You don't take away a melee guy's abilities with an AMF. You don't take them away when you throw him in jail and take all his belongings. You don't take them away in a silence field. Basically, he has less absolute raw power than a caster, but it's very hard to put him in a situation where he doesn't have access to his abilities. And even if you do, he's no worse off than a caster in the same spot.
Caster : A caster guy can be anywhere on the map. He can be god in one situation, and five minutes later, he can be the guy in the back of the group casting acid splash over and over because he just doesn't have the right spell for this situation. When he get's his pants on, he's a force of nature. When he shows up in his shorts with his 'Wizards Rule Barbarians Drool' coffee cup (which needs to be washed) and with sleepy hair and unshaven, then he's useless and stands around making pithy comments about how easy this would be if you'd just told him it was going to happen so he could have the right spell ready.
As a GM, it's your job to ensure that the casters get to shine, and also that there are times when they are wearing a fuzzy robe and slippers to the fight, so the non-casters can shine. It's called balance people. Learn it, live it, love it.
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...As opposed to the abilities of the monk, which are more numerous and less predictable. If only there were somewhere a table giving every single ability of the monk...
...
Try a simple experience: during a session, laugh each time a martial says "I don't have any ability for that situation", and see if you laugh more or less than during other sessions.
ok i'll bite, explain to me please what your counter argument is. as of right now it makes no sense. if you are referring to some type of scenario
in need of fly etc... then please show me you generic spell list that is so omnipotent, lets say level 10. at level 10 my worthless martial character has magic items, keep that in mind before you go ranting in a post.
So, did we ever get past "The monk is the dude with good saves and mediocre martial defenses who hits people, sometimes with a debuff"?
We are past it in the sense that people are now arguing the best ways to compare classes. We are not past it in the sense that people have suggested new roles for the monk that leaves "good saves, good speed, high perception, hits people" in the dust.
In the case of the night-ambush by owlbears, would you have fared better as a fighter or a wizard? Was your performance negatively affected by being a monk, or positively? I am willing to bet that even at level 6 being a monk gave you more options for dealing with the beasts. Moving 40 to 50 feet a round certainly must have been nice.
Some people hold the standard that if another class is better at a role than the monk, then that role is not a good role for the monk. I myself hold that if a monk can pull his weight in the party, then the role the monk has is a good one.
My gnome monk ranger had more levels in ranger than in monk. As a pure ranger, he had slept in his studded leather armor. As a monk ranger, he stopped using armor. Both meant that he was not at a disadvantage when awoken by an attack in the night.
The extra movement merely let my short-legged gnome move at the same speed as the taller folk. The gnome dealt little damage to the owlbear that he declared Ranger's Favor against (Ranger Guide version of Favored Enemy) because he missed his first attack and the spellcasters took that owlbear out--because my gnome had given them time to cast spells by keeping the owlbear away from them. The other two owlbears were 60 feet away at the edge of the camp, because the two party members on watch were holding them back. As a monk ranger, he had been in melee with his longbow in one hand, so he joined the spellcasters in taking potshots at the other owlbears from a distance.
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Mathmuse:
monk ranger is a strange combo, did you make that character before the zen archer was released? zen archer is the best bow based physical class in the game if you ask me. 9 attack acess to all the fighter feats for archery and fighter/monk stack for flurry so adding in 2-6 levels of fighter will up your damage potential. just saying, that a level ten monk can out dps a sorcerer/wizard even with metamagic feats.
i personally think a monk requires a very focused feat build with a proper advanced class, and once you get that role down , ie. grappling, ranged damage, or just a flavor goku build (Qinggong monk). once you do that you can fill that role better then any other physical based class. you just cant break a monk to do insane damage, one reason why so many people talk crap about monks.
If a caster can get his pants on, then he wins. Why does not everyone play casters? Because if the caster doesn't get his pants on, he's squishy jam on toast.Wait, I'm confused: when did the cleric and the magus become more squishy than the monk?
Otherwise, I completely agree with you: with his infinite HP, ki points and stunning fists, the monk is very consistent in what he can do.
Well, considering I have a six player party in my current game, and the Monk is the one that, fighting negative energy elementals, didn't need healing at all, while the Magus is the one that imploded due to a combination of 3 levels of level drain and hp loss, I'd say about the time you start having to make saves to avoid level drain.
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So you beat wizards by specifically shaping the game directly around them?You're making my arguments for me!
No, you prevent them from cheating.
Most power wizards "magically" always have the spell they need when they need it.
I've found if they aren't the only ones checking their sheet, this goes away.
If you run games on appropriate timers that penalize the 15 minute fighting day...etc...etc...this thread repeats ad nauseum.
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then please show me you generic spell list that is so omnipotent, lets say level 10. at level 10 my worthless martial character has magic items...as opposed to a caster.
OK, let's say:
Magus
Arcane mark, for the additional attack. And because marking enemies is fun.
Feather fall, to replace slow fall.
Expeditious retreat, to replace the bonus speed. Or mount, or phantom steed, or anything.
Shield, to replace the +4 dodge bonus to AC.
Color spray, to replace stunning fist. Or persistent color spray, to compensate for the low DC.
Levitate, to replace high jump.
Mirror image, against touch attacks. Or blur, or displacement, or blink, or anything.
Haste, to gain attacks and speed.
Fly, to replace high jump.
10+ other random spells like force charge hook, intensified shocking grasp, frigid touch, greater magic weapon, DimDoor or Elemental body I. I already do anything a monk can possibly do, so who cares?
Arcane pool +3; with his +7 BAB, the total is +10.
Spell recall, which allow me to pay my spells with arcane pool. eg shield effective cost is 1 arcane point. I probably have to memorize high level spells like haste and fly twice, whatever.
Arcane strike +3, which is better than power attack -2/+4. Anyway, the two of them stack.
The same magic items as your monk. Or pearls of power. Or a random magic weapon which allows the magus to add his Dex to damage. Whatever: magi have as many magic items as monks. And UMD as a class skill.
More skills than a monk.
A familiar, aka "free +4 bonus to perception, two perception check instead of one, and +3 to a skill of your choice - perception again, if you want - or +2 to a save". Or, if you think wholeness of body is useful : "improved familiar, silvanshee: lay on hand +5d6 HP 6/day". or "improved familiar, lyrakien: add a whole new guy to the party, who can use any wand at +15 UMD". If you create a scenario with 20+ 50-feet-high pits, all enemies relying...
first off dont misquote me in order to shift the momentum of your argument.
second all you've posted is that a magus is equal monk with its utility spells? great but i havent seen anything that allows your character to out shine my monk.
oh and btw
familiars die very easy, the dm wouldn't even have to go out of his way. that means... THATS RIGHT you get to babysit your familiar!
P.S. you didnt put you spell list in your inane counter post, you just listed spells that do similar things that my monk would do. post an actual spell list with your magus including bonus feats so i can show you how wrong you are that monks are weaker then casters.
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Most power wizards "magically" always have the spell they need when they need it.You are aware that wizards have two different class features to "magically" have the spell they need when they need it, yes?
Arcane bonded weapons are great, and a wonderful Achilles heal now that it has been made clear you can detect them. And they are only once a day.
If you are referring to scrolls, as I believe I said they cost time and money, and even if you have those two things, they must be retrieved (bye bye move action, even if you have a handy haversack) and read (therefore readable so you aren't invisible) and are the caster level at which they were made
This is what it comes down to with the monk.
It is a decent class that hits hard, has good saves all around, and moves fast. It is also capable of some nifty tricks that allow it to move around. It has defense against
BTW- It pretty much has a full BAB, with two weapon fighting for free, doesn't suffer the +1 damage/-1 to hit in his off hand for power attack, gets double slice for free, gets improved and greater two weapon fighting for free. If you want to grapple or trip or disarm, you do not need 13 intelligence to do this, which is huge.
It also has a very good touch ac and flat footed AC. Ki pool (really good), Evasion (great), Still mind (great), + a bunch of other stuff which is ok and will come up once in a while.
What does your fighter/barbarian have for defense? Oh yeah close to nothing but good AC, which I can match or surpass with ki pool a couple of times per day. How was that touch ac, how is that will save? How is your reflex save, do you have evasion? How is your perception check, your sense motive or stealth? Swim and climb any good in your armor?
I don't know what games you guys play, but in the game pathfinder, I've used the monk as a Boss and almost TPK'd a party with said monk. I've used Vampire monks where as I flurry, they have to save vs stun fist, get tripped and still make a save vs level loss, or worse have their weapons stolen. While the wizard is having a problem casting offensive spells on said monk, the two mellee guys are having problems hitting him, and the ranger is lying on the floor cause he got grappled and his blood sucked nearly dry.
If you know how to build a monk, they are devastating and fall behind fighters and barbarians by very little in to hit and that is because the barbarian has rage, the fighter has weapon training. You have stunning fist which is still useful.
There are ways to get around the initial crappy ac of the monk with spells like mage armor, and scrolls that you give to your arcane buddies.
For the people who use amulet of mighty fist to boost thier monk's to hit, you should brass knuckles as they work perfectly with the monk. With this you can keep pace with the rest of the melee guys for the same cost while keeping your monk unarmed damage. BTW you can still use amulet of mighty fists after you are done with your +5 Brass Knuckles.
BTW- It pretty much has a full BAB, with two weapon fighting for free, doesn't suffer the +1 damage/-1 to hit in his off hand for power attack, gets double slice for free, gets improved and greater two weapon fighting for free. If you want to grapple or trip or disarm, you do not need 13 intelligence to do this, which is huge.
An interesting take on it. Even more itneresting is putting it that way even archetypes that give up their flurry of blows can still get it back by taking TWF and Double slice. So they only truly give up the full bab.
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Off topic, but still....
I think that with some users of this board you get the feeling that if you ignore them, they think they have won the argument, which is by itself sort of silly. On the other hand, if you engage them in this argument, they dismiss your argument, ignoring the fact, or, Gawd ferbid, accept the fact, that they may be mistaken or that there are two sides or more to a case.
My way or the Highway. AM KNOWING THE TRUTHEST TRUTH. AM GOING TO POUND IT INTO SKULL OF ALL WHO DONT SEE AM RIGHT... *Sigh*
I think the monk is cool in all the things it can do. But so are the other classes.
Do you ever hear this: "Last night we were playing Pathfinder/D&D/insert RPG game, and I won!". *Shakes head*
The last time I checked this game was meant to be a group-thing, not "One Hero and all his side-kicks" that get to admire big Hero do fancy stuff and we clap and fawn in awe... But again, each to his own.
Condescending replies will rarely help in a discussion. But it's excellent for baiting.
I hold no illusions as to this post having any effect, at all, I just need to say something...
Sorry for the wall O' Text. I know, it will prolly fall for the TL;DR syndrome...
Well, considering I have a six player party in my current game, and the Monk is the one that, fighting negative energy elementals, didn't need healing at all, while the Magus is the one that imploded due to a combination of 3 levels of level drain and hp loss, I'd say about the time you start having to make saves to avoid level drain.Magi have the same Fortitude as Monks.
They don't have Evasion, which let the monk avoid all the 'explody on death' issues. Plus the magus had lower CON than the Monk did. And, the reflex saves to reduce the explody on death was failed by the magus (due to his much lower reflex save).
An interesting take on it. Even more itneresting is putting it that way even archetypes that give up their flurry of blows can still get it back by taking TWF and Double slice. So they only truly give up the full bab.
BTW- It pretty much has a full BAB, with two weapon fighting for free, doesn't suffer the +1 damage/-1 to hit in his off hand for power attack, gets double slice for free, gets improved and greater two weapon fighting for free. If you want to grapple or trip or disarm, you do not need 13 intelligence to do this, which is huge.
Problem with that is that you need 15 dex for the basic two weapon fighting. Remember, they get improved at level 8 and greater at level 15. And now you have to qualify for the dex requirements, and if you read power attack, your off hand attack doesn't get +2/-1 normal rate, it gets +1/-1 instead and there is no feat to fix that, as double slice deals with the damage from strenght. And they don't flurry and would still use thier 3/4 bab.
The math for flurry is as such
- Level -2 BAB, add a secondary primary attack.
At level 8, add a second secondary attack.
At level 15, add a second tertiary attack.
Adding haste and medusa's wrath and ki pool you are able to throw out like 8 attacks if you hit stunning fist by level 10 which is mid level. 6 of those are at your highest to hit.
An interesting take on it. Even more itneresting is putting it that way even archetypes that give up their flurry of blows can still get it back by taking TWF and Double slice. So they only truly give up the full bab.
BTW- It pretty much has a full BAB, with two weapon fighting for free, doesn't suffer the +1 damage/-1 to hit in his off hand for power attack, gets double slice for free, gets improved and greater two weapon fighting for free. If you want to grapple or trip or disarm, you do not need 13 intelligence to do this, which is huge.
Problem with that is that you need 15 dex for the basic two weapon fighting. Remember, they get improved at level 8 and greater at level 15. And now you have to qualify for the dex requirements, and if you read power attack, your off hand attack doesn't get +2/-1 normal rate, it gets +1/-1 instead and there is no feat to fix that, as double slice deals with the damage from strenght. And they don't flurry and would still use thier 3/4 bab.
The math for flurry is as such
- Level -2 BAB, add a secondary primary attack.
At level 8, add a second secondary attack.
At level 15, add a second tertiary attack.Adding haste and medusa's wrath and ki pool you are able to throw out like 8 attacks if you hit stunning fist by level 10 which is mid level. 6 of those are at your highest to hit.
One wonders if the replacements can infact replace it if the monk made an effort to take things like TWF line.
I think Master of Many Styles could pull it off. Sensei is a BIG maybe since they get a bardic music equivalence. The rest of the archetypes merely ahve a different form of the same thing. The style feats are rather nasty. Dragon Style alone is pretty nasty. Though I took it for a synthesist spamming claw attacks. That 1d4 damage looks ten times more terrifying when it's followed by +16 damage from strength alone. And I wasn't even optimizing for damage. :)
Stuff...
Spell combat is part of Full Round action, so no movement while casting those spells that are boosting your movement. High Jump adds your monk level to your Acrobatics, not +5. The enhancment bonus from Arcane Pool doesn't go above +5, even when stacking, so it's not better then full BAB. 4+int is still better the 2+int. Saying something doesn't happen 'In Actual Play' sounds silly when we are talking about a fantasy game. Infinite Stunning Fist is clearly better then one Color Spray. Good catch on the Agaithon though.
You guys know that a monk is actually pretty hard to grapple as they add thier monk ac, strenght, dex and 3/4 bab +10 + and dodge effects to thier cmd. Monk's are one of the hardest classes to grapple.
Even if you do grapple the monk, good luck trying to maintain said grapple on the monk. So what, I can still flurry of blows my opponent as a monk when they are grappling me. So all you have accomplished with your grapple is lower my ac and make sure that you can't get away from me while I flurry of blows you.
How is that magus' reflex save and evasion working btw? Oh yeah he doesn't have it.
At GatfromKi.
If I grappled you once as a monk and you demension door, what prevents me from doing it again, unless you are running away (cause the magus is better then the monk... :p)
And that random stick that you grab that becomes a +3 weapon, you do realize that optimized monks run around with brass knuckles which also will get around damage reduction. Sure it costs money, but they are able to get around dr with weapons at the same rate everyone else a fighter or barbarian is.
Btw the monks I play are ussually tanks, strikers and support characters all rolled into one because of thier versatility, mobility strenght and defensive abilities. And they good perception, stealth (cause everyone has see invisibility as the game drags on) and sense motive (a lil bit of role playing never hurt anyone). When I play a monk, I plan to disarm or trip any fighters, grapple/stunning fist enemy caster. Sure I can't do everything myself, and sometimes i'll need help from the wizard, but thats what he is there for to support me while I protect him. What does the magus do when my wizard buddy casts fly on me so I can hunt you down, or I use my boots of fly to hunt you down? You move 60, I move 60+my enhancement bonus. Because believe it or not, pathfinder is a teamwork game and you have to depend on your teammates to win.
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Because believe it or not, pathfinder is a teamwork game and you have to depend on your teammates to win.
YOU FOOL! Now you'vewalked into the classic teamwork trap!
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Because believe it or not, pathfinder is a teamwork game and you have to depend on your teammates to win.YOU FOOL! Now you'vewalked into the classic teamwork trap!
Yeah, enter the "teamwork is irrelevant, this is a solo pvp game where my godwizard wins" crowd. :)
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Jesus,
Why do these threads always devolve into Caster God/Melee Dung discussions?
They don't, they devolve into arguments of hyperbole situations that never actually happen postulated by people that as far as I can tell don't actually play the game, they just sit around and crunch numbers and make posts about how everyone that doesn't agree with them is stupid.
Against this is ranged the experiences of the people who do actually play the game and illustrate their points with anecdotes and examples.
Me, I go with the players.
Which gets back to the peculiar bias I mentioned before. When I introduce circumstances that are sub-optimal to casters, somehow I am picking on them. When I introduce circumstances sub-optimal to everyone else, it is proper and normal. Why is that?
Because "circumstances sub-optimal for a caster" is specifically targeting the caster, whereas "circumstances sub-optimal to everyone else" is, well, aimed at the party as a whole.
To put it another way, elsewhere we have the claim that wizards are weak because you can target their spellbook or their familiar or their bonded item. In other words, wizards are weak because you the DM can specifically target them.
On the other hand, melee characters are weak because of flying monsters.
Do you not see the difference between specifically attacking a wizard's weak points and having a flying monster? To put it another way, do you not see the difference in power when one class has weak points that come up organically, and the other has to be specifically targeted to hit their weak points?
And you are again basing your argument on perfect spell access and higher level wizardry. Wizards have the potential to cast any spell, and there exist spells for just about every circumstance in print. But I am perpetually asked to accept that all hypothetical wizards will have to ability to add any spell they wish to their spellbooks, and to accept that hypothetical bards or sorcerers have acquired exactly those spells perfect to each moment. I don't question that a strong toolbox may be assembled, but why is the argument always parsed in absolute terms? And why is it when I run games where wizards jealously guard their powerful spells instead of xeroxing off copies for anyone who forks over some gold I am accused of not playing in the spirit of the game or "intentionally going after the caster classes".
1) Again, there is a difference between "I used a flying monster" or "The PCs have to go underwater" and "I am specifically targeting the wizard."
2) Wizards don't need the perfect spell. They need a spell that works. Lots of spells do lots of things. That's why you see tons of threads about "List the creative things you've done with spells!" but never any "list the creative things you've done with skills!"
3) Wizards also have means of pulling out the perfect spell if need be, be it through Scribe Scroll or a bonded item. Or leaving spell slots open to memorize later in the day!
No, I am afraid I don't accept that the wizard will always have all of the spells to survive and dominate the encounters thrown at them. In the dominant notion of "one-encounter a day, stop as soon as the wizard feels uncomfortable, the bad guys never press their advantages," this is undoubtedly so. But I believe that is an artefact of bad scenario design. I don't know what spells a wizard will take at level 5 that will allow them to take on every encounter in a day (at least when I run things) and I am skeptical that each and every wizard will always have just the spell combination to help them get through a whole day of encounters.
This is why I accused you of not reading as I specifically answered the "one encounter a day" fallacy.
Oh come now. He means forcing the wizard to actually stick to a single spell list during game instead of the dubious practice of "memorizing" the right spell while game is going on. I can't believe you didn't understand that.
I was running off the assumption where he uses the wizard's spell list to hand-craft situations the wizard doesn't have spells for - reacting to the spell list, in other words. If I am wrong, I apologize.
And perhaps that is where this thread is coming apart. I am content to say that the monk is a bit weak, but also that I have a clear idea of its role. I happen to like the monk's role.
I've already spoken my part on how roles work and why the monk comes under such scrutiny.
Why then is it so important to demonstrate that wizards are always and forever superior to the monk? Or is it an effort to 'prove' that the monk is an objectively inferior class in every circumstance? Please, help me understand, because the notion of the monk being flexible appears to render some of you apoplectic. My calls for constructive commentary go unanswered, and the point of this thread is being lost behind the honey-trap of "casters uber-alles".
It's a natural overflow of the discussion of roles. When one class can,e very day, change their roles or take on multiple roles and do so better then the base classes meant to embody those roles, there is a schism in the game.
Vigorous motion has a DC of 10 + spell level = 14 for your bard.
The bard's concentration check is 1d20 + his level (10). That means that if the bard rolls less than 14, he'll fail his concentration check.
You don't actually know how math works, do you?
The bard has to roll a 4. Not a 14. If the DC is 14 and he adds 10 to his roll, he needs to roll a 4.
It never fails to amaze me how Cirno finds the time to discuss games he even isn't playing.
That is a list of games I am currently playing. I am not currently in a Pathfinder game. That doesn't mean I never play Pathfinder or that I never played Pathfinder or that I hate Pathfinder, simply that I'm not currently in a Pathfinder game.
Really, this isn't hard.
Good try but you'll have to obsess over and stalk me a lot more then that.
Because believe it or not, pathfinder is a teamwork game and you have to depend on your teammates to win.YOU FOOL! Now you'vewalked into the classic teamwork trap!
It's funny how the "but it's a team game" only comes up with melee classes.
Funny thing is that when I play a wizard (my fav class actually, second is monk). That I also understand that it is a teamwork game, and I'll cast things like haste and black tentacles or stinking cloud etc. After I cast these spells, I may do the odd thing here or there or cast another debuff/control/buff spell, but I understand that is a teamwork game and thus I still relie on those "useless" melee class guys to finish and mob up the enemies.
As a wizard, I don't have the ability to just cast spells all day long, and the DM's that I play with do not do one encounter per day, they can do up 6-8 encounters per day. There are times when I need to relie on the fighter or barbarian to make sure that they do their role and kill things. God forbid if I prep my spell list wrong and we get jumped. Sometimes I am in a city and expect to not do too much combat and I get surprised by the DM.
Many times I've had to run around invisible (vanish) to go and cast displacement on the tank or main striker to make sure that they didn't die. Another example is when I cast greater invisibility on the rogue and he goes to town by massacring people, so please don't use the arguement that it only comes up when melee classes.
I just make sure that I don't get this sense of entitlement or that I am special because I am playing a caster and someone else isn't. There are games when I make the monk incredible disgusting at killings things by casting haste and singining inspire courage with my bard. I don't go around telling people that they are playing the game wrong because they aren't playing what I want them to play, I just work to thier strenghts and they work with mine while we cover each other's weaknesses.
I like having a monk in a party because they can hunt down casters and any buffs are really good on them because they throw so many attacks. And I don't have to worry about him getting mind controlled and turning on us. He is reliable at not getting hurt and there are very little weaknesses to the class.