Honestly Davik... right now I'm just trying to understand what the hell you're saying X-D
Are you saying that you can load advanced firearms with alchemical cartridges as a free action if you have rapid reload? Then you're wrong. Advanced and modern firearms use metal cartridges. That's it. Nothing alchemical. Rapid reload reduces reloading for one-handed firearms to a move action. Advanced firearms already reload as a move so it has zero effect. Period.
I get the feeling you haven't read the text of Rapid Reload. It could not be any clearer. It's really stupid, but at least it's clearly stupid:
The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm).
If you're saying something else, then I have no clue what it is.
@TheDailyLunatic: Actually, metal cartridges are alchemical:
These sturdier versions of alchemical cartridges serve as the ammunition for advanced firearms. They can hold either bullets or pellets.
My argument has always been that since the only ammunition that advanced firearms can use is metal (alchemical) cartridges that the base reload time for the weapon must already include the reload action reduction.
Honestly Davik... right now I'm just trying to understand what the hell you're saying X-D
Are you saying that you can load advanced firearms with alchemical cartridges as a free action if you have rapid reload? Then you're wrong. Advanced and modern firearms use metal cartridges. That's it. Nothing alchemical. Rapid reload reduces reloading for one-handed firearms to a move action. Advanced firearms already reload as a move so it has zero effect. Period.
I get the feeling you haven't read the text of Rapid Reload. It could not be any clearer. It's really stupid, but at least it's clearly stupid:
The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm).If you're saying something else, then I have no clue what it is.
That's funny, I get the feeling you haven't read about cartridges. Since they couldn't be more clear about them being alchemical.
@TheDailyLunatic: Actually, metal cartridges are alchemical:
These sturdier versions of alchemical cartridges serve as the ammunition for advanced firearms. They can hold either bullets or pellets.My argument has always been that since the only ammunition that advanced firearms can use is metal (alchemical) cartridges that the base reload time for the weapon must already include the reload action reduction.
Exactly, so reloading is a move action even with rapid reload, right? I'm not saying that it SHOULDN'T (in fact, I believe it should). I'm saying that's not RAW now and it's why a FAQ is needed.
That's funny, I get the feeling you haven't read about cartridges. Since they couldn't be more clear about them being alchemical.
Yes... and reloading an advanced firearm to its full capacity is a move action. Rapid reload doesn't affect this.
Apples increase the reload speed of a mouth which can be reloaded 1 at a time as a standard/move. A fruit salad is an advanced version of an apple which can reload the full capacity of an advanced mouth as a move action. Rapid Nom reduces the reload speed of a 2 handed mouth to 1 standard action and a 1 handed mouth to a move action.
There's nothing in there to suggest that a fruit salad retains the properties of an apple in addition to its own properties. Here's a wiki link to what a paper alchemical cartridge is: LINK. Its purpose is similar to a metal cartridge, but its function is completely different.
Here's another link to a wiki about cartridges which may shed some light on the differences between paper and metal cartridges. Note:
But this big leap forward came at a price. It introduced an extra component into each round — the cartridge case — which had to be removed before the gun could be reloaded. While a flintlock, for example, is immediately ready to reload once it has been fired, adopting brass cartridge cases brought in the problems of extraction and ejection. The mechanism of a modern gun not only must load and fire the piece but also must remove the spent case, which might require just as many added moving parts. Many malfunctions involve this process, either through failure to extract a case properly from the chamber or by allowing the extracted case to jam the action. Nineteenth-century inventors were reluctant to accept this added complication and experimented with a variety of caseless or self-consuming cartridges before finally accepting that the advantages of brass cases far outweighed this one drawback.
Ok, so maybe we're going about this all wrong. Reloading advanced firearms is a move action. Why don't Metal Casings make this a free action?
I'm still not seeing why you can say for sure that metal cartridges don't confer the same bonuses and penalties as an alchemical cartridge.
Applying real world physics/problems isn't going to sway one way or another. The rules already have problems when you apply physics to them, on a pretty regular basis in my experience.
Ok, so maybe we're going about this all wrong. Reloading advanced firearms is a move action. Why don't Metal Casings make this a free action?
I'm still not seeing why you can say for sure that metal cartridges don't confer the same bonuses and penalties as an alchemical cartridge.
Because you can only load advanced firearms with Metal cartridges.
As Xaratherus said:
since the only ammunition that advanced firearms can use is metal (alchemical) cartridges that the base reload time for the weapon must already include the reload action reduction.It doesn't make any sense to give a reload time for advanced firearms that will never actually be used, since you must always use Metal Cartridges which in your interpretation means they'd always be a free action to reload.
Unless it streamlines all the wording in all the other sections.
Not that I think that's the case, but it could make some sense somehow.
Ok, so maybe we're going about this all wrong. Reloading advanced firearms is a move action. Why don't Metal Casings make this a free action?
I'm still not seeing why you can say for sure that metal cartridges don't confer the same bonuses and penalties as an alchemical cartridge.
Because you can only load advanced firearms with Metal cartridges.
As Xaratherus said:
since the only ammunition that advanced firearms can use is metal (alchemical) cartridges that the base reload time for the weapon must already include the reload action reduction.It doesn't make any sense to give a reload time for advanced firearms that will never actually be used, since you must always use Metal Cartridges which in your interpretation means they'd always be a free action to reload.
That's why I suggested perhaps we've been looking at this from the wrong angle. This all hinges on one thing:
Do metal cartridges provide the same reloading benefit as alchemical cartridges?
If yes, then one of two things must be true.
1) The reload speed increase is "baked" into the gun stats. In which case, rapid reload does the same thing for advanced one-handed firearms, as it does for "basic" ones.
2) The reload speed is NOT "baked" into the listed ones, as such then the move action reload speed is the base speed and the metal cartridges reduce it to a free action without the need for a feat.
The other option is that, despite metal cartridges stating they are advanced alchemical ones, they don't provide the same bonuses. In which case, I'd like to see how to come to that conclusion, with no room for the other left.
I disagree. Arguing that the reload speed for advanced guns already includes the cartridges - which it does and must since you can't use them any other way - does not mean that Rapid Reload does anything other than what it says: Change the reload time to a set value: move for pistols. In every other case, it is explicitly spelled out how you get to a free action if you can.
I'd say there are two possibilities: 1) Rapid Reload was written with only early firearms in mind and it not helping advanced firearms was overlooked.
2) It was decided that reloading all chambers as a move was fast enough and there was no need to reduce it to a free action.
Given some of the comments on the intent behind the gun reloading rules in the recent FAQ threads, I suspect it's the latter. No hard evidence, just an impression.
There is still the side put forth earlier, that metal cartridges do NOT grant a reload speed increase. If true, then it would put this whole thing to rest. Rapid Reload would be useless for advanced fireams, meaning at higher levels where it's useful in the first place for iteratives, TWF becomes very strong with advanced weapons, and single weapon users may as well stick with enchanted/enhanced basic, unless they require the extra range.
How do you argue that if alchemical cartridge rules are already part of advanced firearms, that means you can't use Rapid Reload to bring it to a free? That would imply there was an order of operations for RR and AC, that isn't hinted at anywhere else. This should also mean you can't get to free action reload even with the basic firearms.
MC reload speed bonus being "baked" in can be deduced from the rules as they are presented. Granted it's not obvious, but I've seen worse from companies.
Also, any chance of links to where you are getting your impressions from?
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@Kalriostraz: Rapid Reload does not improve action economy based on the current type of action; it bases it on the weapon type. It does not state that if Gun X takes a move action to reload, then Rapid Reload changes it to free; it states that if Gun X is a one-handed firearm, it improves it to a move action.
The same thing is true for crossbows: If you had a class feature that stated you could reload a heavy crossbow as a move action, taking Rapid Reload (Heavy Crossbow) would not reduce it to a free action; it wouldn't do anything.
Since a one-handed advanced firearm is already a move action, then the only source for improvement would be from the ammunition.
@Kalriostraz: Rapid Reload does not improve action economy based on the current type of action; it bases it on the weapon type. It does not state that if Gun X takes a move action to reload, then Rapid Reload changes it to free; it states that if Gun X is a one-handed firearm, it improves it to a move action.
The same thing is true for crossbows: If you had a class feature that stated you could reload a heavy crossbow as a move action, taking Rapid Reload (Heavy Crossbow) would not reduce it to a free action; it wouldn't do anything.
Since a one-handed advanced firearm is already a move action, then the only source for improvement would be from the ammunition.
Those aren't equivalent at all.
If you have something that says it reduces reload time by one step, and another that says it reduces it to a certain point, I would normally assume you could stack them in whichever way you desired or was most beneficial.
If MC carry the same action reduction of AC, but it's simply already inside the rules, then if you could somehow NOT use MC, you would reload it as a Full-round action (Or maybe it's a standard, but I hope you get the idea). Correct? Thus, RR reduces it from full-round to move, and MC reduce it to free. OR MC/AC apply first, reducing it from a full-round to a move, and RR does nothing.
Alternatively advanced firearms reload as a Move action normally, and MC reduces it to a free as per it's AC rules.
Finally, perhaps MC just doesn't use the same action reduction rules as AC, in which case make a case please.
Those aren't equivalent at all.
I was not talking about the alchemical cartridges here; I was solely referring to Rapid Reload, in response to this:
How do you argue that if alchemical cartridge rules are already part of advanced firearms, that means you can't use Rapid Reload to bring it to a free?
And the answer is: You can't use Rapid Reload to bring it to free, because Rapid Reload (as written) does not allow any type of firearm to be reloaded for free.
Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm). Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity. If you have selected this feat for a hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow.
So the best action economy that Rapid Reload can ever grant you with a firearm is a move action, because the type of action the reload takes is based on the weapon type, not the current reload speed. The only way you could improve it is through the ammo type.
If MC carry the same action reduction of AC, but it's simply already inside the rules, then if you could somehow NOT use MC, you would reload it as a Full-round action (Or maybe it's a standard, but I hope you get the idea). Correct?
But that's where the logic falls apart: How do you fire a gun without using the only type of ammunition that it's allowed to use? You can't. So why would you ever write rules for it that way? I wouldn't; maybe the designers did, but it would seem sort of silly.
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I agree that the rules are very unclear about this, but I also think there's another issue to be addressed.
I feel like the original design of firearms was that you really are not supposed to be full-four-attacking with them; that's why the base reload times are longer, and why the deadshot deed exists in the first place (which also mitigates the number of times you get dex to damage through gun training, which some people on the development staff are well-established to be afraid of), and why, I believe, Lirianne canonically uses two guns not with TWF but to take her first iterative with one and her second iterative with the other. Then, however, the gunslinger class developed with ways to reduce loading times down to where a full attack action is plausible, and since full attacks are so much more optimal (especially with 4x crits, and gaining the ability to basically make misfires a negligible risk) that every optimized gunslinger tries to do it, with as many weapons as possible. That kind of flavor-drifts into gunslingers, and no one else, being able to full-attack with guns, which I guess is OK, but then there's a further wrench thrown in with advanced firearms.
Advanced firearms are designed generally to be from time periods where firearms are considered simple weapons. They also, I think everyone can agree, got less development consideration that emerging firearms in ultimate combat, giving Rasputin Must Die a weaker framework to build off of. Furthermore, the gunslinger class is meant for time periods where guns are exotic and emerging technology, hence the emphasis on mitigating reload speed and misfires and on building and maintaining your own guns and ammo. In a world where firearms are more commonplace, more gun users are likely to be a Trench Fighter, or some other possible archetypes of other classes (Caballero Cavalier? Frontiersman Ranger?) that specialize in guns in their own ways, but have the understanding of them being relatively commonplace.
So when you add advanced firearms, created with that understanding, into a setting with emerging guns, you come up with a gunslinger class that isn't optimized toward using the advanced firearms, using rules for advanced firearms that are less detailed to start with. You could argue for an archetype or something, or maybe even just a feat or two, that take the gunslinger and acclimate them to modern guns (feats that let them apply their existing abilities to modern firearms, or allow modern firearms explicitly to be reloaded faster, or an archetype that eschews some of the stuff about misfires in favor of faster loading), but that's not an area that's likely to get a lot of attention. Considering the differences in mechanics between reloading an early gun and reloading an advanced gun, it makes sense that the skills not be transferred, especially considering the amount of specialization and training the gunslinger apparently has with the muzzle-loaders (though one could argue that a gunslinger who DESIGNED a revolver ought to be good with it). There just isn't a lot of stuff that's compatible.
Really though, a pistolero in Golarion should probably be working toward a Pistol of the Infinite Sky.
...Wow, my apologies, rereading that all it is super rambly, but I hope there's something of worth in there.
Those aren't equivalent at all.I was not talking about the alchemical cartridges here; I was solely referring to Rapid Reload, in response to this:
How do you argue that if alchemical cartridge rules are already part of advanced firearms, that means you can't use Rapid Reload to bring it to a free?And the answer is: You can't use Rapid Reload to bring it to free, because Rapid Reload (as written) does not allow any type of firearm to be reloaded for free.
Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm). Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity. If you have selected this feat for a hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow.So the best action economy that Rapid Reload can ever grant you with a firearm is a move action, because the type of action the reload takes is based on the weapon type, not the current reload speed. The only way you could improve it is through the ammo type.
I think you missed the point of that sentence. I was referring to RR allowing you a free action reload in conjuction with the aforementioned MC's, because the MC are already reducing it to a move, ostensibly "invisibly".
If MC carry the same action reduction of AC, but it's simply already inside the rules, then if you could somehow NOT use MC, you would reload it as a Full-round action (Or maybe it's a standard, but I hope you get the idea). Correct?But that's where the logic falls apart: How do you fire a gun without using the only type of ammunition that it's allowed to use? You can't. So why would you ever write rules for it that way? I wouldn't; maybe the designers did, but it would seem sort of silly.
Ok, so then I use MC ammo and turn my move action reload firearm into a free action reload firearm, as per the rules of AC of which MC are an advanced form of. No need for the feat, we've all been doing it wrong. Or is that not what you're saying?
Again the main question here is:
Do metal cartridges, apply the same action reduction that alchemical cartridges do?
These sturdier versions of alchemical cartridges serve as the ammunition for advanced firearms.
Or do they not? If not, explain why. If so, do I need RR in order to reload my firearm as a free action, or can you NEVER reload a firearm as a free action?
The Normal section of Rapid Reload seems to be talking about early firearms...isn't that a good indicator that there's an issue?
I think you missed the point of that sentence. I was referring to RR allowing you a free action reload in conjuction with the aforementioned MC's, because the MC are already reducing it to a move, ostensibly "invisibly".
No, I followed you exactly. You're not following me.
I'm only talking about Rapid Reload here. Ignore the fact that alchemical weapons exist for a moment:
A two-handed firearm normally requires a full-round action to reload. Rapid Reload reduces that to a standard action. Rapid Reload will never, under any circumstances, reduce it beyond that.
Why? Because if you read the feat, it does not say, "Rapid Reload reduces the reload speed of a firearm from a standard to a move, or a move to a swift, or a swift to a free." It says that based on the type of firearm - two-handed or one-handed - it reduces the action type to a specific action.
Hypothetical: You have a class feature that reduces the reload speed of a two-handed firearm from full-round to standard. You take Rapid Reload (two-handed firearms). What happens?
The feat tells you to look at the type of gun (two-handed firearm, in this case), and reduce its reload speed based on the type of gun (in this case, a two-handed firearm goes from full-round to move). But it's already at a move. So does the feat do anything? Nope - it does nothing.
Ok, so then I use MC ammo and turn my move action reload firearm into a free action reload firearm, as per the rules of AC of which MC are an advanced form of. No need for the feat, we've all been doing it wrong. Or is that not what you're saying?
Again the main question here is:
Do metal cartridges, apply the same action reduction that alchemical cartridges do?
Or do they not? If not, explain why. If so, do I need RR in order to reload my firearm as a free action, or can you NEVER reload a firearm as a free action?
Metal cartridges do the same benefits; they're alchemical.
The real question is, "Do the base reload times given for advanced firearms already include the action reduction from their metal (alchemical) cartridges, since it's the only type of ammo they can use"?
Let's say that you had a sword that requires three hands to wield.
Based on that idea, if you were writing the mechanics for the sword, would you write it from the standpoint of a creature with only two hands?
No, because in that circumstance it would never be a useful weapon. It would be pointless to write it without assuming that it will be wielded in a way to do damage.
Now look at advanced firearms: In order to do damage with an advanced firearm, it must be loaded with a metal cartridge. So does it not make sense that since that is the only way that the weapon can deal damage, they would already write the mechanics as thought it were loaded with a metal cartridge - and thus include the action reduction from the ammunition type?
If we assume that to be true, then the answer to your latter question - can you ever reload an [advanced] firearm for free - would be No, you cannot. The best action economy you could get in that case would be a move action (to reload the gun to full capacity).
I think you missed the point of that sentence. I was referring to RR allowing you a free action reload in conjuction with the aforementioned MC's, because the MC are already reducing it to a move, ostensibly "invisibly".No, I followed you exactly. You're not following me.
I'm only talking about Rapid Reload here. Ignore the fact that alchemical weapons exist for a moment:
A two-handed firearm normally requires a full-round action to reload. Rapid Reload reduces that to a standard action. Rapid Reload will never, under any circumstances, reduce it beyond that.
Why? Because if you read the feat, it does not say, "Rapid Reload reduces the reload speed of a firearm from a standard to a move, or a move to a swift, or a swift to a free." It says that based on the type of firearm - two-handed or one-handed - it reduces the action type to a specific action.
Hypothetical: You have a class feature that reduces the reload speed of a two-handed firearm from full-round to standard. You take Rapid Reload (two-handed firearms). What happens?
The feat tells you to look at the type of gun (two-handed firearm, in this case), and reduce its reload speed based on the type of gun (in this case, a two-handed firearm goes from full-round to move). But it's already at a move. So does the feat do anything? Nope - it does nothing.
But the whole question hinges on the rules for AC. Of course you can't get to a free action, strictly from RR. I GET that. But if MC are already factored into the rules of Advanced firearms, explain to me how you CAN'T use RR to reduce it to a free action. Just because the rule for action reduction is "baked" into the rules for the weapon, does NOT mean you can't extrapolate how it would work WITHOUT using a "sturdier AC". It's all well within the purview of RAW. It may be bad writing, but it's still there.
Ok, so then I use MC ammo and turn my move action reload firearm into a free action reload firearm, as per the rules of AC of which MC are an advanced form of. No need for the feat, we've all been doing it wrong. Or is that not what you're saying?
Again the main question here is:
Do metal cartridges, apply the same action reduction that alchemical cartridges do?
Or do they not? If not, explain why. If so, do I need RR in order to reload my firearm as a free action, or can you NEVER reload a firearm as a free action?
Metal cartridges do the same benefits; they're alchemical.
The real question is, "Do the base reload times given for advanced firearms already include the action reduction from their metal (alchemical) cartridges, since it's the only type of ammo they can use"?
Let's say that you had a sword that requires three hands to wield.
Based on that idea, if you were writing the mechanics for the sword, would you write it from the standpoint of a creature with only two hands?
No, because in that circumstance it would never be a useful weapon. It would be pointless to write it without assuming that it will be wielded in a way to do damage.
Now look at advanced firearms: In order to do damage with an advanced firearm, it must be loaded with a metal cartridge. So does it not make sense that since that is the only way that the weapon can deal damage, they would already write the mechanics as thought it were loaded with a metal cartridge - and thus include the action reduction from the ammunition type?
If we assume that to be true, then the answer to your latter question - can you ever reload an [advanced] firearm for free - would be No, you cannot. The best action economy you could get in that case would be a move action (to reload the gun to full capacity).
And yet, you could still figure out the rules for how a two-armed person would use the sword, from sticking strictly within the rules. That's still a poor example though.
I have two weapons. One takes a full-round to reload the other a move. If I use AC in the full-round one, it becomes a move to reload. But wait, the other one is already using AC in another form. Just because it's the only thing it CAN use, doesn't mean you can't extrapolate from the rules how it would function without them (Full-round reload) and go from there. Thus, advanced firearms reload as a Move action, but you CAN still take RR, and have that be reduced to a free action.
Just because the rules don't explicitly spell out how something functions when you take away something (whether you can technically atm do so or not), doesn't mean it's not there implicitly when you look at it.
I have two versions of a spell, one needing a full-round action to cast, the other a move. The first states that if you use a certain material component to cast it, you cast it one action type faster. The second requires that material component to cast it. If I have a feat that reduces the cast time of all full-round spells to a move action, does this not allow me to cast both spells as free actions?
I GET that. But if MC are already factored into the rules of Advanced firearms, explain to me how you CAN'T use RR to reduce it to a free action. Just because the rule for action reduction is "baked" into the rules for the weapon, does NOT mean you can't extrapolate how it would work WITHOUT using a "sturdier AC". It's all well within the purview of RAW. It may be bad writing, but it's still there.
I explained it above. You're no longer dealing with RAW at this point; you're reading into the text of the feat something that is not there, nor even implied.
If they had intended the feat to improve based on the current action, they could have - and would have, I'd argue - simply said that. It would read, "The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced one step (full-round to standard, standard to move, or move to free). Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity."
Doing so actually saves them text - and word count is something the designers always harp on
Bu they didn't say that.
What you're suggesting is a house rule that changes the way that Rapid Reload functions. Sorry, I don't - can't - see it any other way. If that's the way that you're reading it, then we don't really have grounds for further discussion because I don't see it as valid RAW or even RAI.
And yet, you could still figure out the rules for how a two-armed person would use the sword, from sticking strictly within the rules.
...as I wrote the rules for the hypothetical item, I need to point out that you're reading it wrong. I said that a two-armed person can't use the sword - period. There's no extrapolation possible. Unless you have three arms, that sword is unwieldable. It won't do damage unless you have three arms.
Likewise, an advanced firearm cannot fire a non-metal cartridge. If you try, it fails; you do no damage and the enemy laughs at you.
You're presenting this as though there are two valid options - Option A (an advanced firearm with a metal cartridge) and option B (an advanced firearm with a non-metal cartridge). But that's not possible. Your options are Option A (the advanced firearm has a a metal cartridge and can thus deal damage) and Option Everything Else (the advanced firearm has no capacity to deal damage because it's not loaded).
I understand that it's possible to extrapolate the rules to say, "Advanced firearms without metal cartridges take a full-round action (for a two-handed firearm) or a standard action (for a one-handed firearm) to reload to full."
I don't think that makes any sense at all, because what you're really saying there is this: "Advanced firearms that have no capacity to deal damage and are utterly useless take a full-round action (for a two-handed firearm) or a standard action (for a one-handed firearm) to reload to full." Why would you ever write mechanics in that way?
Have you dealt with any of the companies that write their rules that poorly? Paizo does a wonderful job overall, but that doesn't mean something can't slip through.
I see no reason why reading it the way I'm saying is a house rule. It's well within the bounds of the rules as they are written, although most probably not the way they are intended (who knows on this particular issue), from the way I see it.
The issue I see here still boils down to whether or not MC's still provide the reload benefits of AC's. Obviously the second question then becomes when/how you apply it. But if they don't give the reloading benefits the entire question is a non-issue. But if they do, and they are what make it a move, taking RR HAS to make it a free action, otherwise you couldn't make the non-advanced firearms reload as a free action.
Yes it's a poor way to write the rules/mechanics. But that doesn't make it less true, nor does it require a house rule. I'll admit, "Advanced firearms that have no capacity to deal damage and are utterly useless take a full-round action (for a two-handed firearm) or a standard action (for a one-handed firearm) to reload to full" is exactly what I'm saying. Again, yes a poor way to write rules/mechanics, but it is implicit in the text, if you agree that MCs apply the same reload benefits as ACs.