Tripping as a readied action

[Laurefindel]

Charlie is charging past Timmy, overrunning him in the process. Timmy has readied an action to break Charlie's charge; in this case, the readied action is to trip Charlie.

Charlie has improved overrun, Timmy does not have improved trip.

Can Timmy trigger his readied action when Charlie has entered Timmy's square but not yet performed the CMB check? If so, will Charlie get his AoO against Timmy?

'findel

[Allia Thren]

I'd say, Timmy can trip Charlie when he enters the square adjacent to him (or further away if he uses a reach weapon). Readied actions interrupt the action that triggers them.
Since Charlie did not actually overran Timmy yet, he didn't make his CMD yet either.
But Charlie would get an AoO against Timmy, before the trip.

If the trip succeeds, the charge is stopped, otherwise not.

[Serisan]

Allia Thren wrote:

I'd say, Timmy can trip Charlie when he enters the square adjacent to him (or further away if he uses a reach weapon). Readied actions interrupt the action that triggers them.

Since Charlie did not actually overran Timmy yet, he didn't make his CMD yet either.
But Charlie would get an AoO against Timmy, before the trip.

If the trip succeeds, the charge is stopped, otherwise not.

Yup.

[Laurefindel]

Allia Thren wrote:

But Charlie would get an AoO against Timmy, before the trip.

Just notice Paizo changed some of the wording.

It used to be: "you must first enter your opponent square, which provokes an attack of opportunity."

Is the attack of opportunity still triggered by entering the opponent's square or by the action of tripping per say?

[Josh M Foster]

You don't enter an opponent's square except to move through it in 3.pf, so this isn't a problem. The AoO is triggered when the trip is attempted, specifically when the readied action goes off - the charger being in the first threatened square of the tripper.

Trip never required you to enter a square in 3.5, as I recall, that was just grapple, and even that doesn't occur anymore. Such things have been completely redone for 3.pf, so 3.5 knowledge is least applicable here. The mechanics are entirely different for almost every maneuver.

[Asphesteros]

My view is one is not able to pause an action in process to take another action. Just like how normally one cannot attack in the middle of a move. Any action needs to be resolved before another action can be taken. So, while trip provokes, the charger can't stop his charge, attack, then resume charging. In other words, yea he's given an opportunity to attack, but can't take it because he's already occupied in the middle of doing something else.

So, Timmy's trip attempt provokes, but Charley can't take the attack. Most people interpret the provocation as trumping all that, though.

Whether Timmy readies the trip to try to trip Charley in his square or not is moot, I think, since Charley cant remain in Timmy's square unless he's helpless. Rule is he'd get bumped back to his last legal square, so would end up prone in the square in front of tim either way.

[Allia Thren]

Laurefindel wrote:

Allia Thren wrote:

But Charlie would get an AoO against Timmy, before the trip.

Just notice Paizo changed some of the wording.

It used to be: "you must first enter your opponent square, which provokes an attack of opportunity."

Is the attack of opportunity still triggered by entering the opponent's square or by the action of tripping per say?

Charlie needs to attempt to enter Timmy's square to proboke an attack of opportunity himself, since you provoke them for LEAVING a threatened square. So Charlie enters the square adjacent to Timmy. It's threatened but he doesn't provoke yet.

Now he keeps moving, and leaves the square. Provokes. Timmy gets an AoO, and AoO happen before the action that procoke it. So again this AoO would happen before Charlie's CMB roll.

However if Timmy readies an action he's not actually acting on AoO. He says "I'll trip Charlie as soon as he's close enough" and that is actually the case as soon as Charlie ENTERS the adjacent square.

Or if he uses a whip for example, that can be up to 3 squares away.

Of course, for this to work, Timmy must have an higher initiative than Charlie. Otherwise he might have to actually rely on above mentioned AoO, but that shouldn't actually change anything, since it still happens at pretty much the same time, before Charlie gets his Overrun attempt. (but you need a weapon that threatens now, a whip for example won't work anymore)

[Has'Kar]

Asphesteros wrote:

My view is one is not able to pause an action in process to take another action. Just like how normally one cannot attack in the middle of a move. Any action needs to be resolved before another action can be taken. So, while trip provokes, the charger can't stop his charge, attack, then resume charging. In other words, yea he's given an opportunity to attack, but can't take it because he's already occupied in the middle of doing something else.

Well, you're wrong.

RAW: An attack of Opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in a round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn). Core Rule Book pg 180

That being said it is totally up to the GM for their own game, and I totally understand your viewpoint. Somethings really do just happen too fast. In this case though a character slashing at what he knows is an off balance enemy as he runs past. In my GM opinion it's an AoO green light.

On Readying Actions RAW: "...The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your redied action...." Core Rule Book pg 203

The answer Findel is yes, on both accounts. Timmy triggers his readied action, and Charlie gets an attack of opportunity from this. To resolve this, once Timmy triggers his action (before he performs the attack though), Charlie gets his AoO. Charlie, because he is not making an attack is NOT at a negative 2 for his AC.

Obviously, if Charlie is tripped his charge is over. Good news for him though, he can now taste the sweet sweet stone before his face.

[Tharg The Pirate King]

Making an Attack of Opportunity

An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack,

Performing a Combat Maneuver

When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack),

Overrun

As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.

From what I get from this is simple. is the action goes as follows.

Charlie begins his BullRush/Charge to Overrun Timmy. Timmy with a ready action attempts to Trip as Charlie comes in, but In doing so Timmy provokes an Attack of Opportunity. Charlie can use the Overrun as an Attack of Opportunity as per the rules above (he is still doing his movement and so can overrun as a combat maneuver). Therefore Nothing really changes. Timmy is still squished. However there would also be nothing wrong with Charlie opting to slam Timmy with his weapon (imagine that he pulls his weapon up as Timmy does this, the weapon slams into Timmy (granting bonuses if he was charging etc at least I would rule it)and then since Charlie still has momentum he continous right on through the attack with the overrun he was performing never stopping, basically from someone on outside it would appear that Charlie grabbed his weapon as he reached timmy and pulled it right into him and just kept on running knocking timmy down and running over top of him.) this makes the action timmy did a bonehead move because now instead of a single attack he would take, he now takes 2.

[Allia Thren]

No. You should have continued your quoted sentence: "...others require a specific action."

Overrun is a standalone standard action (or happens during a charge), and can't be made in place of an attack.

Trip for example says "You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack", those are the ones that sentence talks about.

[Tharg The Pirate King]

Making an Attack of Opportunity

actions now corrected to be what would happen

Charlie begins his Charge to Overrun Timmy (remember during this charge he gets +2 attack and -2to AC). Timmy with a ready action attempts to Trip as Charlie comes in, but In doing so Timmy provokes an Attack of Opportunity. Charlie now opts to slam Timmy with his weapon (visually imagine that he pulls his weapon up as Timmy goes into to trip, the weapon if it hits will slam into Timmy (granting bonus +2from charge. since for charge all attacks performed during get that.)and if it hits it adds damage to the difficulty in performing trip then if he fails to trip Charlie (remember -2to ac should affect his CMD
(Miscellaneous Modifiers

A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD .)

since Charlie still has momentum he continous right on through the orignal charge and attacks and overruns which he was performing never stopping, basically from someone on outside it would appear that Charlie grabbed his weapon as he reached Timmy and pulled it right into him and then again hits with weapon and just kept on running knocking Timmy down and running over top of him.) this makes the action Timmy did a bonehead move because now instead of a single attack he would take, he now takes 2 and is overrun. Now if the attack does not cause Timmy to fail his Trip check then Charlie would be knocked prone and the Charge and Overrun stop. But its highly unlikely that it will be stopped. basically you better have a sure fire way to trip (quickened true strike or one heck of a trip bonus or the luck gods love your dice) because this ready action is worst mistake a rookie can make.

[BigNorseWolf]

Quote:

Can Timmy trigger his readied action when Charlie has entered Timmy's square but not yet performed the CMB check?

No. He needs to make the combat maneuver check in order to enter the square. There is no time at which the combat maneuver check has not been made but charlie has entered the square.

Quote:

If so, will Charlie get his AoO against Timmy?

Charlie gets an AoO either way.

Order in:

Charlies Charge triggers
Timmy's trip which triggers
Charlies AoO

Resolve order

Charlies AoO (with charge bonus and penalties) If timmy survives resolve
Timmy's trip If charlie is till standing resolve
Charlies charge.

[Asphesteros]

Has'Kar wrote:

Well, you're wrong.

RAW: ...(or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn). Core Rule Book pg 180

"Turn" and "action" are not interchangable terms. The rule says if provoked in the midst of another's turn, not in the midst of another's action. The rule here is just telling you the character gets to finish their turn if they provoke.

Take a step back and consider what an AoO is - Same page 180 up at the top: "Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free."

Someone leaving themselves open does not make it automatic that another can take advantage of the opening.

There are lots of explicit examples where one can't: if they're flat footed, or grappling, or already used up their one per round (or more with combat reflexes). The idea is, you're too distracted, unready or otherwise too occupied to react and take advantage of the opening. Obviously you're in that situation if you're already in the midst of an action, like a charge for instance.

The rules generally prohibit a character from doing several different things at once. This is why by RAW you cannot move before and after an attack (but see below).

In the rules, I believe the only kind of action stated as can be performed while doing another action are 'non actions' - The 5 foot step if the most explicit example. All other examples are specific exceptions, such as drawing a weapon while moving with a +1 BAB, and feats such as spring attack, where some abillity allows the character to combine a whole process into one action.

On the other hand, interrupting a charge to attack then resuming the charge is a case of trying to do different several things at once, specifically breaking the rule that you cannot move before and after an attack (see spring attack p.134)

So, slow down a little on the "well, you're (obviously) wrong" stuff.