So, my question for everyone here is: What are you after?What are you trying to capture with a psionics system? Is there some unified something that you're after? Is there some broader spectrum of things that you'd like to bring together under one not-quite-magic umbrella?
I think that defining this could help in the ultimate realization of the goal (whether it's a feat system, a skill system, a hybrid of feats and skills, a point system or anything else).
Dave
I've been asking this exact question from the start, Dave! */me grins*
4e has already got their Psionics done, by the by. That book came and went a while back. But I pose the question to you... what do YOU want from a 3.75 Psionics system?
Purplefixer, am I understanding... you want/plan to write some RPG crunch of some meaningful and large scope, are thinking about reinterpreting psionics and asking for what style/directions people are interested in?
Simply: Yes.
1} Don't. Psionics is and has been done. Do something else. By that I mean you can absolutely take inspiration from wherever you like, but my $.02 is that I'm not interested in psioncs done differently. I'm interested in different done differently.2} What about something like Incarnum? I know a lot of people dislike that book for a lot of reasons, but those are specific reasons and the fundamental concept is still worth exploration. Most of the detractors didn't like the fluff ("what, you bind chunks of peoples' souls to you to make armor and stuff? Dumb and evil.") Then too there's the fact that the system was (deliberately) really low-power. The soulmelds possible were very passive, and that led to uselessness. I'd be interested in paying for a sourcebook that lets characters "form" their own magic items, if those items were flavorful and useful.
Anyway, there's my input. Don't waste time rehashing the psionics argument. You're already looking at a fractured market there.
Why not Psionics? This sounds like *PRIME* territory for Ectomorphic powers to me. Being allowed to wear armor is a class feature. What about armor that levels with you to an extent? FOR FREE you generate a form-less form of light armor, a passive misty carapace that provides +1 armor bonus. No need for bracers +1. Go up a few more levels, get a new +1 stacking armor bonus. Want a much higher bonus? Rip some points out of that Ki pool and raise it. Stack your class with monk and you have a monk with some armor bonus in a slot he virtually never uses. No loss there.
Being able to turn on *that* particular super-power is one of your tricks. You learned it with your psi-brainz. No one can take that away from you (barring, you know, things that can take away your brain...) without exposing you to a field where NO supernatural powers work. The trick is to make this a competitive trick with mage armor, bark skin, shield, and any host of other #/day uses of things that wizards can prepare. Wizards get +4 at 1, but only for one hour? You get +1 all day at 1. Does that seem fair to you? Seems fair to me.
Particularly when paired with a secondary combat class who has to tailor his tricks around what he wants to do. Whether he creates that +1 by a skill-style roll, or the expenditure of a limited use per day power, or by fueling it with an attribute point, or by activating a once per day feat (oh please no... that's so horribad...) is what we're discussing here.
I COULD do an 'Astral Shaper' class. Based solely on 'fixing' incarnum. But I didn't like incarnum, and I havn't heard people asking for it. When I'm done with this project, I'll see what people think about Paizo has otherwise skipped by concept, and I'll try and fill that need as well.
I like to design. I want to do it professionally. So far I'm just an amateur (published, but no one PAYS me... yet...) but this is a focus group. World-Wide you guys is my peeps. I got your backs.
Mostly. I AM Lawful Evil after all.
(Oh... tagline? "Trust me, I'm a succubus", "Mostly. I AM Lawful Evil after all." ? ... hmmm....)
My list of traditional psychic effects:
- telekinesis
- telepathy (mind reading)
- remote viewing
- astral projection
- precognition
- sensing the past
- detecting magical/psychic effectsExtrapolated/reality-bending psychic effects:
- psychic healing
- enhanced physical recovery
- boosted physical actions
- improved physical toughness
- illusion
- mind control (domination)
- dream control
- mental attacks (mind blasts)
- energy control (fire, cold, electricity, etc.)
- force/deflection field
- force blast
- force strike (psychic weapon)
Some good observation here, thank you Krillnar.
Telepathy, illusions, mental attacks, dream control and mind control I would place all into one family.
Remote Viewing, Precognition, POSTcognition (seeing what happened here before) or Psychometry (reading the past through object auras), remote viewing, 'detect psionics' as a function of Psychic Awareness, as well as large scale psychic 'world sifting' and tracking would all definitely head under the next family.
Telekinesis, Force/Deflection fields, force blasts, and force strikes I can all see as the TK family. (And now with Crane Wing and Crane Riposte we have basis for an ability that completely negates one attack per round regardless of what it rolls or where it comes from for your Deflection Field!)
The fourth family is obviously the energy family, with fire/cold/electricity/etc. control (I want Etc. Control!), but they look lonely there all by themselves, and other than Firestarter, I'm not sure there are any real classic examples of 'elemental kinetics'. Slowing down and speeding up molecules could easily be within the realm of Telekinetics, but at that point, why not pinch off blood vessels in someones brain or vibrate their bones to jelly?
Then there's the alteration abilities, which seem less psychic and more 'mutant'. Healing, recovery, toughness, boosting...
As you're suggesting, I'm leaning ever more toward the idea that if what people seem to really want is this non-skill D20 roll system that looks like skills but is separate from skills, what I'll shift together will be based on only three attributes: Int, Wis, Cha.
Keep those opinions and ideas coming and I'll continue stockpiling till friday, when I'll pull out some hard system-based questions and make some decisions.
I gotta say, I -hated- power points. With a passion. To an EPIC level of it.
But I luuuurved the warlock. If you went that route, I'd be more than interested in helping out. Maybe going for a choice between certain things for his Eldritch Blast style ability, kind of like different Schools?
Could do Telekinesis, Pyrokinesis, and even do a psychic healer or 'vampire' through this.
I'm digging a lot of useful stuff out of This Thread as well.
I'm leaving this a few more hours. If anyone wants to get in, let me know now and then I'll pitch a summation and start working.
I would like to jump in with an odd point.
Psi vs Psionic
The critical difference is Psionics is like Electronics, the study an application of paranormal phenomena. Esnitally more organized and scientific.
I think Dreamscared Press, through Expanded Psionics nailed this. It is studied, measured, quite controlled, and fine-tuned. Everything you'd expect from scholarly activity.
Psi is just the pure paranormal or mental powers without the "disciplines" or structure of a scientific undertaking. They just work, no one really asks why or really understands how.
It seems to me that people who object to Psionics in fantasy (especially the point based system) do so mainly because of it's sciency nature (although it goes unspoken/written). Personally I'm a solid convert to the XPH/DSP after being a hater in 2e and early 3.0. Putting that aside it seems what people want from Paizo isn't Psionics but Psi.
Alright. Thank you everyone for the input, I'll be starting a new thread with my proposition and findings. See you on the flipside.
But I pose the question to you... what do YOU want from a 3.75 Psionics system?
Let's see.
1) I don't want "science-y" as my psionics.
2) I want psionics to be different from magic. (But I think it's a good idea that some spells and some psionic powers can affect one another.)
3) I like the idea of having different kinds of psionic subdivisions (ESP, telekinesis, etc.). I want to keep that.
4) I want psionics to be unusual, different, uncommon. I like the idea that not everyone wants to play a psionic character -- the 5th wheel flavor of the psionic character appeals to me.
5) I'm not a fan of psionics duplicating everything else (one kind of psionic character has a "familiar," another is basically a fighter with his own flair of oomph, etc.), that's boring.
6) One of the things that really bugs me about 4e is that all the classes are too similar. One of the things that I really liked about 1e was that magic users and fighters were --different--. Heck, magic users and illusionists were different.
Dave
I've always preferred the 2nd edition version of psionics. They were significantly different than wizards, not just wizards with spell points, which is what most of the current versions are. It had some issues, the whole telepathy thing, but I liked maybe not getting the power to work and wasting the action.
I'd turn it into more of a skill system, with powers known, and a skill check like thing to turn them on. remove the chance for critical failure and critical success from the 2e. and make it cost to keep the power active, but allow rejuvenation of the points when resting, not just at the beginning of the day/after a nights rest.
Instant effects, like fireball, is the domain of the spell caster, not the mind bender.
OH, and the one exception is wild talent, the 2nd ed wild talent did not work, no need to include that.
Magic/Psionics dichotomy. I would prefer a rule that magic and psionics not be embodied in the same person in other words if you are a spellcaster you can not take levels in a spellcasting class and vice versa.
I liked where you were going until this. That's... kind of strange. I mean, it's weird that someone would be arbitrarily banned from a particular kind of class just because they have another. It would be similar to saying that fighters can't multiclass as sorcerers (eldritch knight says they can) or that druids and rangers shouldn't multiclass together (which, again, is now an archetype via PrC from the APG [can't currently remember the name]).
This is different from specific limits based off of a class' codes. I could easily see a specialized psionic class that prohibited multiclassing due to its codes, ethics, or similar, but not a unilateral "psionics and magic must never cross" rule.
On another note... I'm not fond of the "psionics as 5th wheel" approach. Frankly, it's silly - why would psionics (or whatever it happened to be called) get such a bum rap? Especially considering that places like Vudra not only have it, but specialize in it. That indicates, to me, that it would have a broad array of techniques and skills associated with it, not just one, lonely class over there in the corner.
But then again, that's just me, and I'm also not liking the concept of a skills-based system (see true namer for details), so I can accept I'm in the minority on this thread.
I like the idea of warlock-like at-will power use.
I like the idea of either spending "power points" or making a caster level check (instead of a skill check), possibly adjusted by an ability score modifier (like Wild Empathy), to "boost" a power.
I like the idea of several different "schools" of psionics (telepathy, telekinesis, astral projection and psychoportation, precognition, etc.).
I like the idea of several different character classes that use psychic abilities: there should be a psychic tank, a psychic skill monkey, a psychic blaster, a psychic utility power user, a psychic buffer, a psychic transporter, a psychic manipulator, etc. etc. Some of these concepts should probably be combined; I think 3 to 5 psionic classes would be the ideal number, with archetypes and prestige classes rounding out any specializations of a given area of expertise.
When I picture psionic or psychic characters, I usually picture them having one or two major abilities, but they learn how to use those abilities with focus and versatility. For example, a telekinetic might learn to fly, deliver psychic punches, become a firestarter, sabotage machinery, form shields and walls and armor, choke opponents, disintegrate materials, etc. etc.
Sure, but everything new involves risk. You have to ask yourself if you want anything new.
It isn't new ideas that I oppose, its bad ideas. Similarly, skillcasting is not a new idea: it was tried (and failed) with the Truenamer.
No, you don't. I think you're thinking that the caster is no good unless his power skill is as high as possible. If so, you're wrong.
Wrong, am I? Well, lets look at what you envision for such a system:
The cheap and easy access to skill boosters means that the DCs for different power levels can't be set linearly (I think squaring the power level, then dividing by two, then adding 10 should be sufficient - 9th level powers have a DC of 50, 1st level power have a DC of 10).
So, what does a skillcaster do to achieve your DC of 50 for 9th level spells? At level, say, 17, which is where existing casters get access to level 9 spells, your caster has the following potential skill bonuses:
Skill Bonus: 20 (17 ranks +3 for trained)
Stat Bonus: 4 (we'll assume minimum 19 in casting stat)
That's a total bonus of +24 to the skill roll (with a maxed out power skill that you say isn't required), meaning the caster needs to roll a 26 in order to cast a 9th level spell, unless he or she adds feats and magic items into the mix. If we add skill focus we can bump that up to +30, meaning that without outside help, the caster needs a natural 20 on their roll.
So yes, I'm absolutely saying that such a system requires the use of magic items to be viable, and the use of those items completely alters the power level of that class. Since you can get a +10 competence bonus to a skill from a magic item (for cheap, I might add, in comparison to other magical effects) you end up with a 1000% better chance of casting your highest level spell with the item than without it - thats not even hyperbole... its literally 1000% more likely.
Look at it from the other side... with said +10 item bonus, the 20th level caster has a 50% chance to cast a 9th level spell, but has a 90% chance to cast level 8 spells, and a 100% chance to cast spells from levels 1 through 7. Every round, barring an escalating DC system, they can toss out... disintegrate, destruction, heal, whatever.. until the cows come home. They are, thus, vastly stronger than other casters, barring an escalating DC system (which would, unsurprisingly, make them truenamers again).
And that is, and always has been, the problem with skill-based systems. The variation in skill bonuses for any given character can be MASSIVE, so its essentially impossible to find a consistent balance between overpowered and underpowered, because you can't balance it around the use or non-use of magic items without *requiring* that be the case to not break the system.
Now, you can use skills to moderate the *effect* of spells in the way that caster level currently does in the core system, without using it as the base mechanic for spells as a resource for the character... that has been done (again, Saga is an example).
Please dear God! Do not turn Psionics into some bizare version of a warlock (the only 3.5 class that monks pointed and laughed at!)
Not true! They also laughed at the 3.5 Soulknife (boy did it suck).
In my opinion, 3.5 psionics, and later Dreamscarred, got it right, sure some of the powers did seem broken at times (but less so than the wizard I would say) but tracking spell points is far easier than tracking which spells you've cast or spell/level/day.
I'm with you there. I fail to see what this thread is producing that wouldn't detract from what we already have, and we already have a good Pathfinder psionics system that can work well alongside the existing magic system.
Because the messageboards are kind of wonky when it comes to tables, instead of spelling out what the BAB and Saves are, I suggest doing the following:
BAB: +1/2
Good Saves: Fortitude and Will
Hit Dice: 1d6
Class Skill: Autohypnosis, Craft, Knowledge psionics, Profession, Psicraft, Sense Motive, Use Psionic Device.
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Intelligence modifier
Psilocks are proficient in all Simple Weapons. Psilocks are proficient in Light Armor, but not shields.
Level Ability
1. Taking names
2. Kicking @$$
3. etc. etc.