Yep.
Expect that, within the next couple of months, there'll be an FAQ or errata on the feat to tone down some of its power. If your PC learns to antagonize people now, you might want to prepare for the day when you see a much less powerful feat on your character sheet.
Reads Feat. BLINKS. Reads again.....
YES, please depower this for PFS...that is just broken.
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Yep.
Expect that, within the next couple of months, there'll be an FAQ or errata on the feat to tone down some of its power. If your PC learns to antagonize people now, you might want to prepare for the day when you see a much less powerful feat on your character sheet.
You can find the Ultimate Magic FAQ here.
Also, you can always check the Additional Resources page to check.
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Yep.
Expect that, within the next couple of months, there'll be an FAQ or errata on the feat to tone down some of its power. If your PC learns to antagonize people now, you might want to prepare for the day when you see a much less powerful feat on your character sheet.
You can find the Ultimate Magic FAQ here.
Also, you can always check the Additional Resources page to check.
Thanks!!!
Even though this feat as written is a perfect fit for my fighter/bard, I skipped it at my just-reached feat level. I know it won't survive in it's current form, and I'm not going to gamble a feat on something that may well be worthless in 2 months, especially with the limited rebuilding in PFS.
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Yep.
Expect that, within the next couple of months, there'll be an FAQ or errata on the feat to tone down some of its power. If your PC learns to antagonize people now, you might want to prepare for the day when you see a much less powerful feat on your character sheet.
Reads Feat. BLINKS. Reads again.....
YES, please depower this for PFS...that is just broken.
Antagonize is a extremely overpowered taunt pure and simple. If I wanted a taunt, I would play a video game.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Sorry to necro, but I was just noticing that the errata to the DC on the antagonize feat has not yet been updated in the PRD.
The PRD still says HD+WISmod, instead of 10+HD+WISmod. Is that still on the radar to update, or are we just relying on the FAQ to keep it straight?
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Here's my understanding:
There's often a lag between a rules change / "clarification" and the PRD being updated. In all cases, use the FAQ.
To be clear, I'm not asking which to use - just giving a heads-up to whoever needs to know (web team, maybe?) that the PRD is still showing the incorrect DC.
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To be clear, I'm not asking which to use - just giving a heads-up to whoever needs to know (web team, maybe?) that the PRD is still showing the incorrect DC.Here's my understanding:
There's often a lag between a rules change / "clarification" and the PRD being updated. In all cases, use the FAQ.
I think, but am unsure, that they don't update the PRD until they have updated the books.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I think, but am unsure, that they don't update the PRD until they have updated the books.To be clear, I'm not asking which to use - just giving a heads-up to whoever needs to know (web team, maybe?) that the PRD is still showing the incorrect DC.Here's my understanding:
There's often a lag between a rules change / "clarification" and the PRD being updated. In all cases, use the FAQ.
Really? Didn't know that.
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Venture-Captain, Arizona—Tucson
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One of the designers also stated that it was not their intent to restrict the target's attack options to melee attacks. It would be stupid for an archer or a 7 STR wizard to rush into melee when they could retaliate much more effectively by targeting their foe from afar. The feat is meant to force the antagonized character to immediately try to harm the antagonist.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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We just saw this as our Inquisitor used it against an enemy mage. The mage raced forward down a narrow alley and was torn to pieces by attacks of opportunity, since it was decided that AoO's didn't count as "guaranteed" damage. Thinking about the number of small rooms I've seen in scenarios makes me fear for bad guys in the future.
I will say that a well placed Grease spell or Hold Person would be equally damaging to a group of enemies, but the DC for Antagonize is way out of line with Save DC's at 1st level.
I look forward to the nerf!
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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We just saw this as our Inquisitor used it against an enemy mage. The mage raced forward down a narrow alley and was torn to pieces by attacks of opportunity, since it was decided that AoO's didn't count as "guaranteed" damage. Thinking about the number of small rooms I've seen in scenarios makes me fear for bad guys in the future.
I will say that a well placed Grease spell or Hold Person would be equally damaging to a group of enemies, but the DC for Antagonize is way out of line with Save DC's at 1st level.
I look forward to the nerf!
No, that just fixed the obvious typo. Even at that DC, it's super easy for anyone with any proficiency at Intimidate to make it work.
The "fix" people expect is to remove the "must use a melee attack" part. Archers and Archmages shouldn't be so thin-skinned as to be easily goaded into fisticuffs with raging half-orc barbarians weilding greatswords.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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No, that just fixed the obvious typo. Even at that DC, it's super easy for anyone with any proficiency at Intimidate to make it work.
The "fix" people expect is to remove the "must use a melee attack" part. Archers and Archmages shouldn't be so thin-skinned as to be easily goaded into fisticuffs with raging half-orc barbarians weilding greatswords.
Meh, if I use it, I'll just use the diplomacy mode. :D
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Yep.
Expect that, within the next couple of months, there'll be an FAQ or errata on the feat to tone down some of its power. If your PC learns to antagonize people now, you might want to prepare for the day when you see a much less powerful feat on your character sheet.
Reads Feat. BLINKS. Reads again.....
YES, please depower this for PFS...that is just broken.
The feat is as OP as they get. This feat needs a rewrite from scratch.
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The feat is as OP as they get. This feat needs a rewrite from scratch.
Even per errata the effect is quite strong and the DC is easy-as-pie to beat for the average diplo-build (i.e., 5th-level PC with CHA:18 and a Circlet of Persuasion, 5 ranks +3 class bonus, uses a Swift to Sense Motive to double-dip the CHA bonus, yields +19), and grants your basic save-or-suck effect of the target being -2 on his attacks...but he doesn't get a save, and it lasts ten rounds.
<cut-away to next week's thrilling adventure, in which our intrepid heroes have to fight a dozen thugs who curiously all have cotton-balls stuffed in their ears. It's later explained that being Deafened is a much less severe condition in battle than having someone Antagonize you.>
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If the target would be harmed by trying to move in and do their melee attack, then they will not do it.
I would rule, as a GM, this includes moving through threatened areas.
Otherwise, I think its perfectly acceptable that it makes artillery move into melee. It gets that wizard sitting behind the scenes or the archer, to move in so you can attack them.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The feat is as OP as they get. This feat needs a rewrite from scratch.Even per errata the effect is quite strong and the DC is easy-as-pie to beat for the average diplo-build (i.e., 5th-level PC with CHA:18 and a Circlet of Persuasion, 5 ranks +3 class bonus, uses a Swift to Sense Motive to double-dip the CHA bonus, yields +19), and grants your basic save-or-suck effect of the target being -2 on his attacks...but he doesn't get a save, and it lasts ten rounds.
<cut-away to next week's thrilling adventure, in which our intrepid heroes have to fight a dozen thugs who curiously all have cotton-balls stuffed in their ears. It's later explained that being Deafened is a much less severe condition in battle than having someone Antagonize you.>
Interesting; you're the first person I've heard complain about the diplomacy version. Granted, I haven't been thorough in reading all the antagonize threads but I've personally only heard the DC issue and the "forcing them into melee is too good" (the intimidate mode) complaints until now.
So you really think granting an extra 10% failure rate on things that don't target/include the user (thus putting some focus on said character) is overpowered? Compared to, say, the witch's Evil Eye hex, which grants a -2 to a thing of your choice regardless of target, and works for at least one round (more if using move actions to Cackle) even if they make their save?
I think I'm going to have to disagree that the Diplo half of antagonize is overpowered.
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If the target would be harmed by trying to move in and do their melee attack, then they will not do it.
I would rule, as a GM, this includes moving through threatened areas.
Otherwise, I think its perfectly acceptable that it makes artillery move into melee. It gets that wizard sitting behind the scenes or the archer, to move in so you can attack them.
I disagree, they should attack you with the best of their ability. I don't think a 7 strength wizard should run up to someone who clearly melee. Sure you can force my character to target him with a spell, but getting him into melee should be out of the question, well aside for mental compulsion.
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So you really think granting an extra 10% failure rate on things that don't target/include the user (thus putting some focus on said character) is overpowered?
It's stronger than any save-or-suck -2 thingamabob that they're going to save against half the time anyway (completely wasting your action as a caster). Basically, if it has ears, it's punked. ...I understand that bards and "charisma rogues" need something to do other than cower in the corner during "boss fights", and that Ultimate Combat was going to throw them some bones, but limitationless "You! -2 attack, Nyah-nyah!" is a hefty power upgrade off of a single feat.
Compare to Aid Another's AC (which increases an ally's AC +2, for a similar effect to Antagonize/Diplo):
AAA ANT requires:
--------------------
YYY NNN attack roll required
NNN YYY ranged with no distance or cover modifiers
NNN YYY grant effect bonus to every ally
NNN YYY effect lasts for more than one attack
NNN YYY effect lasts for more than one round
NNN YYY effect virtually guaranteed to last the entire encounter
Antagonize/Diplo is the equivalent of infinite Aid Another with a single deployment. Granted, AAA is pretty sucky for an action, but useful in certain circumstances (my samurai aided his mount's AC last Sunday); it's very definitely not sucky if it could do all that.
(If Burlap took Antagonize, Jon would be having gibbering mouthers pop out of every cookie-jar; they don't have ears. :-P)
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I disagree, they should attack you with the best of their ability. I don't think a 7 strength wizard should run up to someone who clearly melee. Sure you can force my character to target him with a spell, but getting him into melee should be out of the question, well aside for mental compulsion.If the target would be harmed by trying to move in and do their melee attack, then they will not do it.
I would rule, as a GM, this includes moving through threatened areas.
Otherwise, I think its perfectly acceptable that it makes artillery move into melee. It gets that wizard sitting behind the scenes or the archer, to move in so you can attack them.
Yes, but if you are in a ravine shooting arrows up at the wizard, and the wizard is firing fireballs down on you, and the only way to get down is to jump… the wizard will not jump, because that is clear danger to do so. It’s the same thing if they run through a gauntlet of your allies that could all get an AoO on him.
The feat clearly says that the target will not endanger themselves in order to attack the antagonizor.
[I understand that bards and "charisma rogues" need something to do other than cower in the corner during "boss fights", and that Ultimate Combat was going to throw them some bones, but limitationless "You! -2 attack, Nyah-nyah!" is a hefty power upgrade off of a single feat.
Speaking as a player of bards, I will take umbrage at that remark!
I have not, and will not use Antagonize, as I think it's a really poorly written and unbalanced feat.
I will state that every boss fight I've found myself in, I've found ways to actually turn the tide of the battle.
"Everyone gets +2 to hit and damage!"
"I intimidate the boss - Oh, look, he's shaken for 2 rounds."
"I vanish, and then waltz up and heal the fighter"
"I glitterdust the boss!"
"I charm monster the boss! Make a DC22 Will save!"
"I grease the square under the bosses feet!"
"Boss, is unshaken? Intimidate to demoralize again!!! How many rounds does a 35 get me?"
"I silence the spellcaster!, and switch my bardic performance to Interpretive Dance!"