You have read This right?
That being said there are a ton of new options in UC (I do not have a copy yet). Apparently the rogue gets a substantial boost due to all the dissatisfied feedback.
First off, I would rule out spring attack if you are going for a TWF build the two are just completely contradictory. Forget Two-weapon defense as well it is not worth a feat (especially for a feat starved build). You do not even have access to Two-weapon fighting greater as a level 10 so that is out as well.
A potential build would look something like this:
Level 1: Two-weapon Fighting and Dodge
Level 2: Talent Finesse Rogue
Level 3: Improved Initiative/Double Slice/Toughness
Level 4: Talent Weapon Training
Level 5: Dazzling Display
Level 7: Feat not taken at level 3
Level 8: Talent Combat Trick Improved Two weapon fighting
Level 9: Shatter Defenses
Hope this helps give you possible ideas and the order is not particularly important since you are starting at level 10.
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Is there any way you can switch your STR and DEX scores? Weapon finesse, especially for those stats, seems to me a waste of a feat. Even if you can't switch them, you still have a very healthy STR score, and you can just put points into that as you level.
I'd recommend a reach weapon actually: a rogue is proficient with a Longspear and you can flank much easier when you have reach; it also gives you a bit of breathing room compared with the fighter and barbarian. (Just realised you asked for a Longspear build, so I've got carte blanche I guess)
Just noticed you haven't put in your +2 human bonus yet. I'd put it into STR, for these stats:
STR 18 (that's a +6 damage when using a two-handed weapon)
DEX 18
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 8
At level 10, you could have a 20 STR + magic weapons, and attack from reach with Lunge to be out of full-attack range.
Actually, see if you can put the 14 in INT into WIS instead, as you're not going to want such a poor will save.
Feats I'd suggest:
1 Combat Reflexes, Iron Will
2 Rogue Talent (Weapon Focus: Longspear)
3 Power Attack
5 Nimble Moves
7 Acrobatic Steps
8 Rogue Talent (Lunge)
9 Improved Initiative
That leaves you with 2 extra rogue talents. You might also try the Scout Archetype, who trades uncanny dodge for the ability to sneak attack after moving or charging.
I hope this wasn't too confusing to read, as I was kind of all over the place while writing it.
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You can only full attack as a full round action, and spring attack is already a full round action which allows only one attack. Similarly, moving around only lets you, by RAW, make a single attack, no matter how many weapons you're carrying.
Simple rule: if you want more than one attack a round, stand still.
UC is Ultimate Combat, which includes the Ninja, an alternate class for the rogue that, among other things, gives him a Ki pool that comes off his CHA stat; he uses this similarly to a Monk, but with more rogueishness. No trap-finding, but better offensively. Unfortunately, your rogue has an 8 in CHA, so that's out of the question.
Personally, I think a rogue gets disappointed more often than not trying to TWF. It's already a style that's hard to pull off, and having to flank at the same time is just an added bit of difficulty you don't need. A reliable few sneak attacks is better than, on occasion, blending your opponent, but usually being less than effective.
What is UC? A new book? I dont have that one yet obviously. And why is spring attack and mobility not going to work with a twf? It looks to be good symetry to me. Jump into flanking position, land a few SA, jump back out to safety.Cheers and thanks for allowing me to sap your epertise.
Ultimate Combat is in fact a new book (pretty much brand new).
As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.
See where it says a SINGLE attack? The reason to take TWF feats is to get more attacks and with spring attack you only get one attack with the benefit of moving 15 feet away after that attack.
If you are interested in using a weapon with reach allow me to point you to the Swashbuckler archetype This may hurt your trapfinding niche, but as you will come to realize, traps aren't as bad as you think they are in pathfinder. Plus this doesn't make you a bad trapfinder just a less optimized one.
The Swashbuckler gets a martial weapon proficiency for free and with a normal rogue a longspear is your only option in terms of reach. Some suggestions I have for a reach weapon: Guisarme has reach, trip, 2d4 and a x3 crit. A Hammer, Lucerne has brace, reach, 1d12 and a x2 crit. A Ranseur has disarm, reach, 2d4 damage and a x3 crit.
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I feel the need to disagree with pipedreamsam on Swashbuckler. It would be more effective to take a level of Fighter for proficiency with all martial weapons. Also, if you take three levels of the Weaponmaster Archetype, you can take advantage of weapon training by using Gloves of Dueling. That, plus bonus feats and the ability to put on a Breastplate would turn you into a very effective skirmishing warrior.
If your DM is letting you use UC content, grab the Naginata for reach and its x4 crit.
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1) Dodge, mobility, spring attack
2) Weapon focus, dazzling display, and shatter defenses
3) 2WF, double slice, improved 2WF, greater 2WF, 2WDefense
The Dodge feat tree doesn't do much for you. You are only going to get a single attack if you spring attack and that doesn't complement TWF.
I'm not a fan of dazzling display and can't recommend it.
Double slice can wait a long time. With a 16 Strength, you are losing one point of damage every time you hit with your off-hand. Once you run out of worthwhile feats, you can select it, but it's not vital. The same goes for 2WDefense. It's nice, but your AC isn't going to be very good in any event, so it won't be missed.
Weapon finesse is a waste with your Strength. I don't think you really need toughness either. So I don't think you have the feat issues that you have mentioned.
Some questions
-What is in the rest of your group?
If you have melee characters, flanking becomes an option.
-How trap happy is your DM?
If he has a lair of deathtraps you may need trap finding talents. If not you can probably get away with throwing everything into combat.
I do not like builds that try to full attack. IN every game i've been in, on both sides of the table, under a variety of DMs, I always see people moving around the board too much for full attacks to really matter. Most groups know to focus fire on foes and bring them down one at a time rather than having 4 half wounded but fully effective enemies up, so when you hit someone and set up the sneak attack... the rest of the party (kill stealing scale rotting kobolds every one) kills it on you and you need to walk to your next victim.
Dazzling display looks like it works roughly every other round. You display, they're flat footed to you, sneak attack sneak attack. You might get two rounds out of it.. i don't know.
It doesn't have much to keep people in place though... and they seem to be aware of the fact that they really shouldn't be standing next to you to be double bladed quizinarted.
-Dodge mobility spring attack seems ok, but you tumble to do most of that anyway
I do like what i see of the ninja. I want to file the serial numbers off and play a daring dragoon type who vanishes with a twirl of his cape and a puff of smoke.
Another option you may want to consider is playing an urban ranger. While they do not get sneak attack they do get favored enemies. They are also a full BAB class with decent skills. Considering they can ignore the prerequisite for the bonus feats. The Trapper archetype also gets trap finding so would be another way to build your character.
For the most part Rogues are usually suboptimal compared to most to the other classes. sneak attacks looks good on paper, but does not work as well in actual play. If you really want the sneak attacks multiclass with a Ranger instead of a fighter.
Rearrange your STATS to STR 20 (including Racial), DEX 16, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 8. Chose a single weapon to use so you can pick up Weapon Focus, and other weapon specific feats. Also make sure to pick up power attack.
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Feats to never take as a rogue: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Two Weapon Defence, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defences.
Flashy feats are a wast most of the time. Stick to the bascs. Untill you have all of them. Your AC will never be high enough to get any real help from dodge or two weapon defence. Mobility is only useful at low level when your maxed out acrobatics skill is not at a insane number. Dazzling Display and Shatter Defences reduce the amount of damage you do so much that you will never use them.
Key points for making a good rogue.
1: With out focusing on skills you will master them. Skill Focus and skill feats are not worth taking. After level 6-8 they play out there real effect on the game. At this point it's the number of ranks you have not your ability mod or feats that add the most to skills. So toughting out lower skill totals at low level will help you. Build a better rogue.
2: Fighters traded To hit for damage with power attack. So when making a fighter you focus on damage and then To hit. Rogues do damage with sneak attack and trade there BAB for it. So when making a rogue you focus on to hit becous your Damage is part of the class.
3: Con is not a dump stat. You did not do this. I have seen so meny people try it on rogue and wonder whay thay ended up dead.
Str 16
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 8
Human: More skill points, exta feat, higher base damage
Or
Halfling: Higher to hit bonus with finesses and size. Race skill bonus all of them work well with rogue.
Both are good choices and each hase there advantage.
Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting base feats to take.
Double Slice if human incresses your off hand damage by 2.
Combat Experties to set you up for taking Gang Up, and Butterfly's Sting. Along with Aglic Manuvers and Improved Trip or Improved Dirty Trick.
If you can get the other members of the group in to taking Out Flank. That is one of the best rogue feats.
Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus. If it incresses your to hit you want it.
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The suggestion to be an Urban Ranger instead has merit. If you want to keep your stats as is, you may have trouble with your low WIS score, however. I'd recommend a Skirmisher Urban Ranger to compensate, as they have a much smaller need for WIS. They also may feel more rogue-like, as they get a handful of Hunter's Tricks, which typically give minor buffs or debuffs; you can usually make use of them while attacking.
I'd still go with a two-handed reach weapon (Glaive or Ranseur are both worthy choices), and your feats could go as follows:
1 Combat Reflexes, Power Attack
2 Shield of Swings (Ranger)
3 Weapon Focus: Glaive
5 Iron Will
6 Furious Focus (Ranger)
7 Lunge
9 Nimble Moves
10 Improved Sunder (Ranger)
For Hunter's Tricks, I'd recommend Hobbling Attack, Distracting Attack, and Uncanny Senses. You'd have five uses at level 10 with no WIS modifier, which is better than the amount of spells you would have (that is, 0).
Longspear and Lunge is an awesome combo. Mix in Sneak Attack, and it is getting great. You'll have 15' reach so they cannot simply 5' step to hit you. Take Quick Draw or Spike Gauntlets so that you can threaten adjacent squares.
Max out Acrobatics so you can 'tumble' through the enemy's square for flanking.
Think about a dip into Bbn for the Fast Movement and the feat Fleet so that you can simply skirt around the enemy for flanking.
I really like High Strength rogues with 2H weapons. I also take the Feint = Sneak Attack almost every round pathway.
Thanks everyone for the input. I think I will try out the str based rogue instead of the dex based one (this goes against all my DnD programming lol).
It's not a horrible option, but it's also overrated as a general-purpose option. Dex is a better stat to pump as a rogue because couples well with evasion. Getting Medium Armor Proficiency/Mithral Breastplate isn't a terrible option to cover the AC issues (I highly recommend you do this), but you're not going to auto-pass reflex saves the same way you would if you're Dex-based. Getting a giant point buy helps this build out (you can pump Str/Dex quite a bit), but I'm used to 15/20 point buys.
Note that the guide linked above suggests that mithral full plate should be used for this build -- this is a *bad* idea. You need Heavy Armor Proficiency to wear it (2 feats) and it kills your evasion. Do not do this!
You may also want to consider the offensive defense talent (+dodge/sneak attack die vs. target for 1 round).
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Far better than the two-weapon fighting feats is to swing 1 weapon, harder. Take weapon finesse and dervish dance; these two combine to allow you to use Dex for both attack and damage with a scimitar. Add in Piranah strike (power attack with Dex prereq) and you've got yourself a str-dumped damage master. Then spring your 1 attack and get out of the way
TWF is bad for mobility; to take advantage, you need to stay still. For a low-armored rogue, this is a "bad idea". I'd concentrate in on making one attack per round that really counts. At that level, with a +3 Scimitar, you should be +19 to hit (+7 BAB, +6 Dex, +3 Scimitar, +2 Flank, +1 WF) for 6d6+9, and be away from being attacked back. Far from "great" damage, but taking -2 to hit for 2WF and staying in combat doesn't seem like a wise idea either. At least you'll be fun out of combat, and functional in combat.
Far better than the two-weapon fighting feats is to swing 1 weapon, harder.
Might want to check your math on that one. . . .
I think that level 7 Feat should be Toughness. With no effort to increase your AC, you'll need those hitpoints.
You may want to look at Offensive Defense as a Rogue Trait. A 5d6 SA gives you a generalized +5 dodge bonus to AC until next round.
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Thanks everyone for the input. I think I will try out the str based rogue instead of the dex based one (this goes against all my DnD programming lol). I will use a longspear and a scimitar/rapier/whatever I can get my hands on for up close melee.
Level 10: Advanced Rogue Talent ... Opportunist
Combat Tactics:
1. use improved initiative and/or surprise attack to land 5d6 crits during surprise round. Possible to get as many as 3 sneak attacks here.
2. combination of reach weapon plus lunge to attack opponents from 10 or 15 feet away. This gives me a HUGE flanking area and thus more sneak attacks.
3. use the feint tree to bluff them into being flat footed and then land 2 5d6 sneak attacks
4. use...1) I think you are going overboard with Strength at the expense of Dexterity. Your AC, Initiative, Reflex Save and most of the rogue skills are dependent on Dexterity. I would put the human bonus and ability score increases into Dexterity for Str 18, Dex 20.
2) You still have a barbarian and a fighter as flanking buddies. Why spend multiple feats and take a 14 Intelligence for the Feint feat tree, when you can flank with the other characters?
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I agree the "Str rogue" is thinking wrong. You're not going to keep up in combat with any other classes, even in the best of circumstances. So concentrate on being decent at combat (getting in 1 or 2 "solid hits" per round), and let UMD be your other friend (web and grease, or enlarging those tsnks, are efficient spells and therefore cheap wands). Be great out of combat, in combat get damage in where you can. Concentrate on skills and good tricks. Otherwise you'll feel inefficient.
Going up front with an AC of 23 and a 12 Con will just make you a liability.
I calculate my AC at about 23. +3 chain shirt (10 ac incl dex bonus), ring of protection +2, belt of dex +2
Its not an awesome AC but surviveable I think.
A CR 11 elder fire elemental monster will get a +23 to hit, so no, 23 AC is not quite survivable.
Otherwise you'll feel inefficient.
Any rogue is going to feel inefficient against that elder fire elemental (no sneak attack). In that case, arguing about rogue statistics is a moot point. The rogue either becomes a flank/aid another bot or spams wands through UMD.
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There are meny ways to make a good rogue. And there are 5 times as meny ways to make a bad one.
What I have learned from playing rogues.
1: Get as meny HP as you can. Don't even think your AC will stop a hit. Get a fortification item ASAP. (Have your character sell off his first borne if it will get him heavy fortification early. And you know you have enough HP when your level 9 rogue hase more HP then the level 10 Fighter. Yes I hade this hapen.)
2: Evasion will save your life. (Area Effect spell's are great if your the one with evasion. Not so much so if your the one casting.)
3: The only thing better then sneak attack, is more sneak attack. (That is why two weapon fighting works so well for rogues. And there are a ton of feats and rogue talents that can help as well.)
4: Trying to fight solo is death. (AKA have a battle buddy.)
5: Dwarves make very good rogues. (Bonus Con + Toughness + Favord Class = Fighter like HP. And if your DM alows 3.5 books. 6 levels Ranger(Str18 Dex16 starting) + Over Sized Two Weapon Fighting + Double Slice + 2 Dwarven Axes = Nasty.)
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Here is what my final build will look like and it is based on bits and pieces of the advice from the various posts here. I am very much looking forward to playing this "combat rogue." If you see any glaring weaknesses in this build please let me know. I can see 2 of them myself; will saves will be terrible and AC will be moderate (23 normal and 21 when I lunge).
I'm wondering about magic items now. You said a non-magical longspear? Are you aware that a level 10 character gets 62,000gp to work with?
Anyone saying that rogues with 2Handers is better...I'm sorry,but you're wrong.The only time when TWF is better is when you DON'T get bonuses like sneak attack.
Which, even for a rogue, can be a very common occurrence. I rarely see full attacks executed, everyone is always running around and moving. Its even rarer to see a full attack where you can sneak attack, because you can't sneak attack in the surprise round, you can't multi sneak attack from stealth, you can't multisneak attack from invisibility. You need to move into position, flank, and somehow keep the person there when they know they should be moving.
I rarely see full attacks executed, everyone is always running around and moving. Its even rarer to see a full attack where you can sneak attack, because you can't sneak attack in the surprise round, you can't multi sneak attack from stealth, you can't multisneak attack from invisibility. You need to move into position, flank, and somehow keep the person there when they know they should be moving.
You, sir, know what you are talking about. A rogue whose survival depends on killing with a full attack is flirting with death every time they try it, because if they fail, they're a squishy rogue who is much easier to kill than the tank on the other side. Further, getting to the full-attack position is risky as well, because it likely means you're being attacked even before you go all-out.
IMO, priority #1 for a rogue build is not doing more damage, but survival. Priority #2 is contribution (be it combat or utility). When a rogue is burning up party actions to not die, they are a liability. This is the curse of the glass cannon role. The only way to mitigate this is to survive with minimal party assistance, so the tank can tank, and the casters can play god.
If you have a tactic to survive (such as Offensive Defense, or a pet monkey trained to properly use smokesticks), delivering SA is actually easier because you can actually get into position to deliver it without being dead or heavily wounded.
Priority #3 is assuring contribution by covering the corner cases, such as (if SA is your contribution) enemies with blindsense, concealment, uncanny dodge, or various forms of flanking immunity. Wands of Grease, or delivering status effects like Stun or Immobilized are wonderful for this, as are flanking foes who have blindsense, or hide & attack those with flanking immunity.
I rarely see full attacks executed, everyone is always running around and moving. Its even rarer to see a full attack where you can sneak attack, because you can't sneak attack in the surprise round, you can't multi sneak attack from stealth, you can't multisneak attack from invisibility. You need to move into position, flank, and somehow keep the person there when they know they should be moving.
Sounds like there are lots and lots of attacks of opportunity in your games. . . .
IMO, priority #1 for a rogue build is not doing more damage, but survival.
This is the primary argument for the monk. Sure, you can survive anything. But your teammates are all dead because your damage output is simply too low to keep pace with the enemy's damage output - party healing. UMD expeditious retreat scrolls and get out of dodge I guess (:
IMO, priority #1 for a rogue build is not doing more damage, but survival.This is the primary argument for the monk. Sure, you can survive anything. But your teammates are all dead because your damage output is simply too low to keep pace with the enemy's damage output - party healing. UMD expeditious retreat scrolls and get out of dodge I guess (:
Rogues have a built in class feature which lets them outdamage a Monk in an attack action.
However, a Rogue is a glass cannon (already does damage; Monk++). Exposing yourself to attack makes you a liability to the party, thanks to them burning up resources on your survival.
I'd like to jump back into this.
Essentially there are three "basic" builds for any given martial class.
1)THW
2)Archery/Crossbow
3)TWF
Lets just go ahead and rule out archery altogether as it is a headache to get your SA's (as if it wasn't hard enough already) and you have expressed no interest in that road anyway.
This leaves us with the builds of THW and TWF. The single biggest factor in my mind on how to determine which will be better for you is to analyze how your DM runs his encounters. Does he run encounters where full attacks are uncommon (such as in the experience of BigNorseWolf) or do the places in combat remain relatively unchanged after the first couple of rounds?
Secondly, in your first post you stated that you wanted to play a survivable and mobile rogue, but were worried about how you could make the feats work. That problem was solved for you with a variety of options/suggestions. Halfway through you started to lean toward a THW rogue with a reach weapon, which is more survivable than the TWF rogue. So the question is at this point, what do you personally what your character to do.
Rather than type out an entire build allow me to post the pros and cons of each build straight from Rogue Eidolon's guide since you are unable to read it yourself.
THW:
Pros:
Uses few feats to achieve
Sneak Attack a strong majority of the time
Each attack does massive damage, so good against foes with DR you can't penetrate
Loses out less than the TWF Rogue with the loss of a full attack.
Cons:
Lower Dex means worse at many basic Rogue skills
Fewer attacks means fewer Sneak Attacks
Still vulnerable to being crushed in melee (but see hint below)
TWF:
Pros:
Lots of damage
Sneak Attack a strong majority of the time
Dex synergises well with Rogue skills
Cons:
Vulnerable to being crushed since we'll be fighting in melee (Pathfinder helps us here with d8 HD)
Loses out a lot when can't get full attacks
Takes lots of feats to achieve
The "hint" from the guide for THW is basically to multiclass a few levels into figher or barbarian. Reasoning being that since your Dex is lower you won't suffer from heavier armor and get full martial weapon selection.
Since you are lacking a party arcanist and have a melee heavy party maxing out UMD and using wands is an excellent idea (skip the minor/major magic rogue talents they aren't worth it).
Other than all of that I really can't think of anything else to add, hope this helps.
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@MergyNo not at all. I was just showing what my unbuffed and unaided stats would be. Though I don't quite have the 62,000 gp budget you mentioned, I do have a budget of 35,000 gp. This is my shopping list:
1. +3 chain shirt
2. +2 ring of protection
3. +2 longspear
4. +1 rapier (I cant use the scimitar that I wanted)
5. +2 belt of dexterity
6. boots of striding and springingIn addition to the 35k above we also were given a number of treasure parcels to divvy up. Though through pure random dumb luck not much of it was useable by me. Sadly I ended up with a Ring of feather fall only.
Krallek, do consider levels of fighter to round you out. I know I said this before, but three levels of the Weaponmaster Archetype would give you three levels of full BAB, a higher fort save, and +1/+1 with your chosen weapon (also, you could drop the longspear and get a Glaive, or another martial reach weapon). The +1/+1 could be upgraded to +3/+3 when you have enough money to acquire gloves of dueling.
Alternatively, three levels of core fighter would give your PC the ability to move full speed in medium armour, meaning dropping the chain shirt for a breastplate. That's on top of two extra feats, and all for dropping 1d6 sneak attack and some skills.
Whether you do that or not, I suggest a belt of strength instead of dex, and a +1 amulet of natural armor and +1 ring of protection as opposed to a +2 ring, as you'll save 5000gp that way. If you've got such a strict budget, I might drop the +1 rapier for just a masterwork one, or armor spikes, if you decide to use a breastplate instead. I'm going to check the equipment you picked, and might post some suggestions, both for a fighter/rogue, and straight rogue.
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I hope you don't mind the double-post, but here's a few item lists that may help out your character. I tried to keep them to the spirit of what you had, but made a few tweaks to give you more bang for your buck.
First, my personal favourite: This is if you decide to take three levels of fighter and then seven levels of rogue, giving you martial weapon proficiency and medium and heavy armor proficiency as well.
Fighter 3/Rogue 7
+2 Hooked Lance 8303gp (From UC, dmg 1d8/x4, reach, trip)
+2 Breastplate 4350gp (with one level of armor training, it's +4 max dex, which is perfect for your stats)
+1 Ring of Protection 2000gp
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor 2000gp
+2 Cloak of Resistance 4000gp (to shore up that will save)
+1 Rapier 1320gp
Mwk Dagger 302gp (You can throw it, you can open cans with it, you can threaten people with it, it's so versatile!)
+2 Belt of Giant Strength 4000gp
Boots of Striding etc. 5500gp
Handy Haversack 2000gp (Everyone needs one of these)
34077gp
That leaves 933gp for a few potions as well. The Hooked Lance is just because I've been reading UC lately, but you could replace it with your martial reach weapon of choice from core: The Glaive is excellent.
Next, straight rogue:
Rogue 10
+2 Longspear 8305gp
+1 Mithral Breastplate 5250gp (This will only work if your DM allows traits. Take Armor Expert, and then this Breastplate has no Armor Check Penalty, so you can wear it despite not having proficiency. It has 1 more armor than a +3 chain shirt, and is cheaper to boot!)
+1 Ring of Protection 2000gp
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor 2000gp
+2 Cloak of Resistance 4000gp
+1 Rapier 1320gp
Mwk Dagger 302gp
+2 Belt of Giant Strength 4000gp
Boots of Striding etc. 5500gp
Handy Haversack 2000gp (Seriously, get one.)
34677gp
You just squeak by with this, but still 333gp for incidentals. You'll notice it's almost identical to the former list, as your needs are going to be similar for both. Personally, I think you'll be better with a bit of fighter, but both characters should be able to pull their weight.
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@BigNorseWolf
That is exactly why I took the Feint line of feats. If I find myself in a situation where I cant safely get into flanking position with the 2.5 tanks in the party I can use my move action to feint and then if the dice Gods permit I can still land a full 2 sneak attacks on any enemy within 15' of me.
If you use your move action to Feint how do you get 2 attacks off as that would require Full attack action.
Getting the entire Feint line of course helps. But you have now commited pretty much all of your Feats to TWF and this and it will take a VERY long time to actually have it all.
As for moving around in combat. It onlytakes a diagonal 5ft step for a bad guy to stop full attack flanks and unless against stupid creatures or a kind GM, you will face that a lot.
Personally I like the high Str Rogue, at low lvl they completely outperform a TWF. If I don't go TWF it also leaves me lots of spare feats to play around with. Alternatively I still go TWF, but start 2h. Afterall, high Str benefits TWF too - +4 on both attacks (assuming you take Double Slice)is a good chunk of extra damage, certainly helps if you don't get a full attack off.
Of course there are other options too, one fun concept I am going with (though works better with Ninja due to less feat requirements) is high Str with a Katana in two hands whilst also having the TWF feats. I 2h hit while moving around, if I find myself able to get a full attack off then Katan becomes one handed and I Quick Draw my second weapon as a free action and stab away.
But if you want to go high Dex you could go Dancing Dervish with a scimitar and take Improved Unarmed Strike - your offhand is free but I assume you could still TWF with it.
However, a Rogue is a glass cannon (already does damage; Monk++). Exposing yourself to attack makes you a liability to the party, thanks to them burning up resources on your survival.
So would you rather burn resources on their survival or have the entire party die because you have no damage output?
Next, straight rogue:
Rogue 10
+2 Longspear 8305gp
+1 Mithral Breastplate 5250gp (This will only work if your DM allows traits. Take Armor Expert, and then this Breastplate has no Armor Check Penalty, so you can wear it despite not having proficiency. It has 1 more armor than a +3 chain shirt, and is cheaper to boot!)
+1 Ring of Protection 2000gp
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor 2000gp
+2 Cloak of Resistance 4000gp
+1 Rapier 1320gp
Mwk Dagger 302gp
+2 Belt of Giant Strength 4000gp
Boots of Striding etc. 5500gp
Handy Haversack 2000gp (Seriously, get one.)34677gp
You just squeak by with this, but still 333gp for incidentals.
Really would recommend having a magic ranged weapon at this point. . . might trade out the rapier for a MW version and take a magic composite shortbow with a decent Str bonus.
So would you rather burn resources on their survival or have the entire party die because you have no damage output?
A few things here.
You focus on priority #1 (survival), ignore what I listed as priority #2 (combat contribution), and imply my goal to make suggestions that create uselessness.[ Congrats on lowering yourself with willful ignorance (at least I hope it was willful, for your sake).
No, I'm just stating that you're wrong about your prioritization (: I've built the survival-focused rogue (your 1 and 2) several times in 3.5 and PF. It's generally a bad idea.
Survivability, for a Rogue, means the standard stuff (higher AC, more HP, better saves), but also means being able to use abilities like stealth in combat... which also secure the means to deliver SA.
Sounds like a big time (read: combat tempo) waste to me. . . as well as probably a large portion of misreading or misapplying the rules.
Hiding means not being hurt, which is good when you're squishy. Tanking as a squishy = liability, and TWF (requiring a full attack) is exactly an attempt to squish-tank.
All melee classes want to do full attack actions. Move + standard is generally pretty sub-optimal for combat unless you're dealing with extreme situations that *require* defensive posturing (e.g. big bad guy + spring attack). This is why most people don't get that Vital Strike is not supposed to be a primary ability -- it's a secondary ability you use when you can't get full attack actions in.
SA and UMD already provide plenty of combat contribution. A few Feats or Rogue Traits can synergize well with these. Burning the majority of feats and RTs on offense just makes you more of a glass cannon. Diminishing returns isn't just theory... it's applicable.
You go ahead and make your invincible rogue. I'll make my team player and contribute.
Krallek - thanks for posting your experiences with the build. I've been doing a lot of stewing over THW vs TWF rogues myself, so it's nice to hear as much info as possible on people's experiences with either approach. I would love to play a dagger wielding TWF, but I'm also realizing that may lead to some ineffectiveness in combat, at least at times. Time will tell which direction I go, but hearing your experiences has helped.
@Meabolex
It's a decent enough opinion, you have, and with enough backing.
Here's mine.
The Glass cannon has 2 features in the world of "hitpoint accounting":
I pose to you that exposing yourself to TWO enemy full attacks (the round you move in, and the round after your own full attack), to achieve #1, is too high a risk for the return. The fragility, combined with the fact that your iterative attacks (at -5 and -10) have a much lower chance of even hitting, is what makes that risk too high. Better to make a Fighter or Barbarian, who can deliver melee damage, more easily, and at less less risk.
The point of a Glass Cannon is to deliver the damage without exposure. If your CoDzilla isn't wasting actions healing said Glass Cannon, they can instead focus on contributing with battlefield control, buffs, or tanking. By reducing your own exposure, you're freeing up what would otherwise be a healer. That alone adds value to the combat, but it's more of a consequence, than an overt goal.
That said, the Melee Glass Cannon would do well by doing the following:
TWF is only useful at doing #1, and the first half of #3 (hit, sans fade), all at the cost of being exposed to two full attacks from the enemy.
However, PF has provided some lovely items to help the Rogue. Here are two quick ones:
Another way to contribute in combat is by dealing in time instead of hitpoints. Any time you rob the enemy of the ability to function, you're winning. This is inherent in the ideas of battlefield control, buffs and debuff. The enemy wastes actions whenever they miss you. The enemy wastes actions whenever they have to go after you. That sort of thing. The utility features of a Rogue can cater to this "buying time" sort of play, such as using wands to do minor wizardly/clerical things (buff, battlefield control, etc.), or attracting enemy attention (such as with a well placed SA) and then negating their ability to hurt you (by hiding or boosting defense). This caters well to the sort of divide & conquer premise.
EDITED FOR TYPOS