my solution to such situations as a GM is that I tell everyone at the very beginning, should they ever split up, the smallest group will get killed. Should they ever work against each other, they are very likely to get killed. Hidden agendas and role-playing is all good and well, but having fun together is what it's all about.
I believe the player just got the wrong idea of the game. Don't get me wrong I did a lot of foolish mistakes in my past, all the munchkinism and everything. It happens. It's the GM's job that the right ideas come trough.
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Here's the problem with any "I tell lies!" build: if you screw up one time, there will probably be consequences.
I.e., if you the rogue or bard or other panty-waisted twerp type, are ever caught with the dwarf barbarian's gold, the very best thing that will happen is you're bounced out of the party.
-- Which is effectively the same as being killed, because you're still making a new character.
But the people who act as though the Bluff skill can do anything without limit will just respond by saying...
"Wait! It's not what it looks like! Some faceless assassin has coated all of your gold coins in an invisible, odorless contact poison, and I was just cleaning it off for you. Good thing I finished before you decided to fondle your money! I know all of this because I'm from the future, and I'm actually your son, and that faceless assassin turns out to be mom (you sly devil). Now, because I'm from the future, I can tell you that by the day after tomorrow, gold as a commodity will suddenly be valueless, so what say I do you a solid and replace your gold with a like number of copper pieces (which will shortly be worth a huge fortune)? No, don't thank me! We're family, after all."
And then they would roll a die, and declare it a success.
Why is it that every person who insists that Bluff is the be all and end all, turns out to such a ridiculously bad liar?
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I just dont see why its so improbable that i come from the future.
You absolutely right, Theodore. It's not so improbable that you come from the future.
By the way, Theodore, I'm actually a Nigerian prince. It's not so improbable. Lot's of people are from Nigeria, and some of them have to be princes, right?
Maybe you could help me out with a little banking problem...
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Based on the information provided here (please note this qualifier):
The issue is not the rules for Bluff or the spell glibness.
The issue is a player who is trying to exploit the rules to make other players miserable. Resolving the specific rules issue (appropriate use of Bluff) will not stop this kind of player--a typical player of this sort will throw a tantrum when his exploits are shut down (without addressing the root cause of the problem) and/or find other rules exploits to continue getting his rocks off by "beating" his fellow players "at the game."
The root of the issue has nothing to do with game mechanics and everything to do with a competitive, control-driven player who is not mature enough to handle a cooperative game.
I agree with the above; that this is a player issue, and if it weren't this tactic, it would be another.
However, it doesn't exactly help that Glibness is such a shoddily-written spell. It has no internal logic to how it achieves its effect. Making your words sound more musical has zero effect on your statements being utter BS. You can't polish a turd.
Adding some bass to your voice doesn't add value to the crock you're selling.
I don't care if Sean Bean came to my door, to tell me that this turd is, in fact, 'a Marks and Spencers Finest turd', I wouldn't want it.
If Sean Connery popped by, to tell me this turd had been laid by Dominican monks, in an oak cask, to mature to its full potential, I wouldn't care.
If Patrick Stewart gave me that cheeky little twinkle in his eye, and told me this turd had been hand-rolled on the thighs of dusky maidens, with the tagline "Make it so, ...number two.", I'd take one sniff, and throw it in his face.*
Add to that, the creators seem to have no clue re the maths behind 3E skills, this spell granting the equivalent of raising one's Cha by +40. There are deities who do not have Cha at that level.
A PC built around Bluff already has a great advantage over his targets, in that he is likely to have a class skill bonus, and plenty of skill ranks to spend, vs an unmodified Wis roll. That alone allows wild bluffs to be attempted with a good chance of success. To add +20 to this is ridiculous.
For those who actually want to play a game of social encounters, this spell actually wrecks their immersion; by cancelling out the penalty for even the most atrocious lies, there in zero incentive for a player to bother coming up with a story with so much as a passing relevance to the story so far.
Instead of d'Artagnan, Scaramouche and Cyrano de Bergerac, passing witty repartee, your game will degrade into farcical non-sequiturs.
"I'm the Queen of Sheba. This bushy beard is a trained face-cat, given to me by the High Priest of Shelyn." <Bluff 40. In yer face!>
"Certainly, your Majesty. May I say what an honour it is to meet you."
"Why was I in bed with your daughter? What a stupid question! As any fool can see, I have fallen out of the moon, and was engaged with her in a rigorous bout of exercise to refuel my miniaturised, invisible spacecraft, so I can return to my adoring subjects."<Bluff 50! Beat that!>
"Oh, well, since you put it that way, please take my other three daughters, and my wife as well!"
Even assuming that the PCs are given immunity to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, et al**, you still have a spell that allows a PC to run rampant over NPCs. The spell is either overpowered, or not, dependent on its effects. Declaring that PCs have a handwaved veto doesn't fix that.
*I've picked a trio of British actors, who are generally accepted as having voices that send the ladies all a-quiver. Feel free to substitute for whatever local talent you like.
**A bad idea, imo. PCs and NPCs should play by the same rules, and should not even be aware, in-character, who is in one subset or the other. Or, as I put it;
"An NPC is simply a PC, whose player couldn't make it to the game."
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If your gold is cursed, trade it in for gems, or platinum pieces.
... or just go into a ten minute, in character, tirade about how all money is cursed, and that true happiness can only be obtained through taking a Vow of Poverty... then thank the bard for leading the way with this, and (with the help of the other players) steamroll the bard's player into taking VoP.
"You are right! It is the root of all evil! Cast off the shackles of this material realm!"
"Join me, brother! Join me! You have shown me the light! Let me relieve you of that belt pouch, bulging with Mammon's droppings!"
Replace your masterwork rapier with this crude stick!"
"Come, friends, help me turn him upside down, and shake those vile coins and gems from his pockets."
Let me help you...<ummph>... tear...<riiiiiip>... your fine clothes. They can make washrags for the poor! This rain barrel will cover your modesty!"
"Let me relieve you of your heavy backpack, your scroll case full of ....hmmmm.....scrolls of...hang on...scrolls of Glibness?"
"Whaaaaat? Gut him!"
I ended up fragging him.
He tried to Glibness us into going along with some half-baked plan of his, and I used the above argument about a suggested course of action. He got militant about it and started crying to the GM, so then my character questioned his and caught him in a paradox, and used Detect Magic to indicate the buff. This is when I initiated a surprise round, and got him with Evil Eye. Won initiative roll, and hit him with Phantasmal Killer. Dead. The players cheered, and the GM has refused to let him reroll anything with a spell-casting capability.
Congrats. Instead of killing him, non-good aligned characters may have beaten him senseless, cut off his lieing tongue, stripped him naked and put a slave collar on him. Let the player enjoy roleplaying a helpless slave.
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I think Theodor's point is that apparently people fall for Nigerian emails without anyone casting any spells at all and surely the availability of glibness would offset the much smaller population of Golarion. There are NPCs out there with 8 wisdom and no points in sense motive. What besides the self imposed restrictions of your character concept and alignment prevent you from fleecing them? Surely if your actual character concept was a CN scam artist you'd be able to get these gullible rubes to give you their money, right?I just dont see why its so improbable that i come from the future.You absolutely right, Theodore. It's not so improbable that you come from the future.
By the way, Theodore, I'm actually a Nigerian prince. It's not so improbable. Lot's of people are from Nigeria, and some of them have to be princes, right?
Maybe you could help me out with a little banking problem...
A generic NPC, maybe. If you're going to consider the consequences of some magic, you have to consider the consequences of ALL magic. What shopkeeper in a world where glibness exists, doesn't have a way to detect it? Permanent arcane sight, alarm spells to trigger on the correct school of magic, hiring a wizard...heck, being a wizard?
Quite frankly, if no defenses existed against this kind of thing, magic shops wouldn't exist. Every third level bard in the world would empty each of them out every time they passed, all their profits would dry up, and they couldn't afford to stay in business.
I really don't think the guards would look kindly upon someone caught walking into a shop with a glibness spell. the intent is obvious, and in a magical world, it's easy to prove. Boom, executed caster.
There's a world of difference between playing a con game in a storyline and running around trying to rip off magic shops.