To start with... WTH~!? You replaced a class feature with ONE POINT OF LINGUISTICS? And not just any class feature... one of the most useful class features of the paladin!?
Justification? Explanation? Does anyone understand why they did this?
It's for roleplaying reasons!
:P
To go with your vow of poverty!
:D
Yes the archetype pretty much sucks mechanically, the summons are good but not that good for a paladin. Also i might get behind the thinking and reasoning of balance for this arhcetype if you factor in the capstone, which is very powerfull but then again i don't plan on playing a seriously weaker paladin (than the normal) just to get an admitelly very powerfull capstone.
Also i am forced to take the mount instead of the weapon, arrrrrrggggggg
I guess this archetype's a bit a waste.
Changing something here and there, it could instead become a GREAT alternate class- a conversion for the Sentinel (NG paladin from Dragon Magazine 310).
Ya know, not everything has to translate to "awesome for your character."
Us GMs like to have flavorful, interesting characters that just might not be optimized for combat. In fact, some NPCs might never ever see combat.
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While it probably is weaker than a regular paladin, the flavor is great, and the animal companion buff is wonderful. Note that you get the regular parts of the divine bond (SR, summoning multiple times per day, etc.) as well as celestial 3 levels early and a flying mount at 12th level. All in all it's closely balanced, although probably slightly weak.
Just because an ability is replaced by another doesn't mean that that's the sole balancing factor. I forget what the summoning ability replaces, but it's far more powerful than the base ability. Summoning 1d4+ 1 Celestial t-rexes? Yes please. As a spell-like ability? Awesome. Consider that the replacement for divine grace.
This is a prime example of why archetypes are meant to be "all or nothing " as opposed to pick and choose.
Just because an ability is replaced by another doesn't mean that that's the sole balancing factor. I forget what the summoning ability replaces, but it's far more powerful than the base ability. Summoning 1d4+ 1 Celestial t-rexes? Yes please. As a spell-like ability? Awesome. Consider that the replacement for divine grace.
This is a prime example of why archetypes are meant to be "all or nothing " as opposed to pick and choose.
THAT was an answer I was looking for. You think they're giving up grace as an additional balance to the summon? Okay, I can see that, could be. It's just that grace is one of the more extreme abilities, making Cha specced paladins virtually immune (or at least half-immune!) to anything requiring a saving throw -ever-. Trading that out for the ability to speak celestial is... just bad.
5 Celestial T-Rexes is a 100' by 20' block of shining powerful goodness FOR JUSTICE and might be worth the loss of impervious saves...
Ok, now that I'm looking over the archetype, and not just what I remember from it, Celestial Ally isn't the replacement for Divine Grace, the improved mount is.
Now unfortunately, you are fairly restricted in what you can summon outside of animals, since there are a total of 4 angels or archons on the list. That's more a problem with the lack of Good aligned summons (all 7 of them) than the class itself, but oh well.
Plus, they still get Aura of Justice, meaning they can soup up their summons's Smites.
Aaaand I just read that line that says only one ally can be summoned at a time. No more 5 t-rexes, and I don't think this is worth it anymore.
Aaaand I just read that line that says only one ally can be summoned at a time. No more 5 t-rexes, and I don't think this is worth it anymore.
Aaaaaaand the balance question is back on the table. I'd love a dev design philosophy behind this. The Tetori is -awesome-, the Cavaliers are mostly ho-hum (honor guard is neat!), they DIDN'T add the Hound-Master for some unknowable reason, but the Empyrean makes it in with it's extremely poor option...?
I mean like... 'I take a point of linguistics'? Seriously? That's a class feature? That's like speaking druidic!
"Just House Rule It" is is a cop out, not a valid argument. I'm asking about the design philosophy here. Why Jason/James/EtAl would choose to take a swipe at the angelic avenger style of character and then just kick them in the shin and run away. Was it not tested? Was it not vetted around the office? Was it a deliberate decision to make the archetype as a whole weaker because of a powerful capstone?
The pegasus mount is nice and all... unless you're indoors, in a thunderstorm, or anywhere else mounts have issues... It can't have been a balancing act for that, right? Removing options is supposed to leave you pegged to a single BETTER option, or leave you with some kind of bonus, not leave you with less overall utility than before. I would think being FORCED to take the mount would pay for the winged enhancement, since the mount is so rarely even useable. I always used my summonable paladin steed as an extra-dimensional luggage rack!
So why the nerf? Anyone else have any ideas on it?
Ya know, not everything has to translate to "awesome for your character."
Us GMs like to have flavorful, interesting characters that just might not be optimized for combat. In fact, some NPCs might never ever see combat.
As a DM, I don't get this.
I don't stat things I'm not going to use. Why would I fully stat out an NPC if I wasn't going to use those stats?
I firmly belong to the school of "Don't roll unless it matters, don't stat it out unless you're going to roll it, and use your dang imagination."
Absolutely +1 Cirno.
I don't have any insight on the design philosophy here, but I will say that I'm showing this archetype to my paladin player and offering to allow him to ignore the Voices of the Spheres, especially since he's playing an aasimar paladin.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I can't speak for the development pass, but in the original draft, I had Celestial as a freebie, because it's 1 skill point and seemed important that the class wouldn't learn to speak it. However, I also think that without that, the archetype's a bit stronger than it needs to be. If I had a do-over I'd have looked for something else to trade in or slow advancement in.
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I can't speak for the development pass, but in the original draft, I had Celestial as a freebie, because it's 1 skill point and seemed important that the class wouldn't learn to speak it. However, I also think that without that, the archetype's a bit stronger than it needs to be. If I had a do-over I'd have looked for something else to trade in or slow advancement in.
Celestial being a freebie would work pretty well (especially since they get tongues later on). Just adding divine grace back in brings the Empyrean Knight pretty close to being balanced vs a normal paladin.
Ya know, not everything has to translate to "awesome for your character."
Us GMs like to have flavorful, interesting characters that just might not be optimized for combat. In fact, some NPCs might never ever see combat.
As a DM, I don't get this.
I don't stat things I'm not going to use. Why would I fully stat out an NPC if I wasn't going to use those stats?
I firmly belong to the school of "Don't roll unless it matters, don't stat it out unless you're going to roll it, and use your dang imagination."
All this assumes that "use" == "fight". Which in my game it doesn't. If it does in your game, then absolutely, why bother?
I have an island of dwarves, all of whom are level 1-3 commoners; there's about 32 of them, all with the celestial template. I made the stats for them even though they're all (a) on the side of the party and (b) about CR50 below where the party is at.
This was not because I expected the party to fight them :)
I can't speak for the development pass, but in the original draft, I had Celestial as a freebie, because it's 1 skill point and seemed important that the class wouldn't learn to speak it. However, I also think that without that, the archetype's a bit stronger than it needs to be. If I had a do-over I'd have looked for something else to trade in or slow advancement in.Celestial being a freebie would work pretty well (especially since they get tongues later on). Just adding divine grace back in brings the Empyrean Knight pretty close to being balanced vs a normal paladin.
I just looked at the empyreal knight and I do not feel it is that bad. He's different from the standard paladin and fulfills a slightly different role. He loses divine grace, mercies, lay on hands, channel energy, divine bond (weapon), holy champion. Gains and uses:
- Speak and read celestial. Not exactly fantastic, I agree. But well, kind of a requirement for the later uses.
- Resistances acid, cold, electricity, up to 10; immunity to petrification; saves +4 against poison. These are great defenses, especially if you take the alternative human trait energy resistances against fire - except for sonic you decently protected against all kinds of energy.
- Truespeech, speak with all creatures like tongues: Quite useful, but depends on the campaign. It comes surprisingly late though.
- Protective aura: Great, protects against summoned evil creatures, high deflection and save bonuses.
- Celestial ally: Summon angels, archons and celestial creatures (cha+1) times per day. This is not bad, especially since you would never get these spells (up to summon monster IX) as a paladin on your spell list. Also, they are spell-like abilities, so you can summon while bound, blinded, cannot speak... Help available, always. The creatures usually have interesting abilities, e.g. lantern archon. They help you and your allies to flank and function as meat shields. I didn't check all, but I believe almost all are intelligent. Since you speak their language, you can ask them to do more than just fight. What is unclear to me is if the augment summoning feat would work on them :-/ Also, if celestial creatures means "all creatures with a celestial template", there are quite a lot of options.
- Your mount gains the celestial template and gains a fly speed. Shining knight on flying horse anyone? ;-P Great, I think.
- The capstone is really cool, but I would not focus on it.
So I think you also gain a lot. It might be interesting to check combinations with other archetypes, e.g. warrior of the holy light.
Upon re-reading the archetype and seeing what other poeple have posted here i have changed my mind about this archetype.
Before getting the capstone it is weaker than a standard paladin but not by much, after the capstone i think that it gets on equal footing with a standard paladin but different.
it doesnt seem week from what I see in the post above.
however the loss of divine grace is a deal breaker.
The loss of lay on hands hurts just as well.
All this assumes that "use" == "fight".Ya know, not everything has to translate to "awesome for your character."
Us GMs like to have flavorful, interesting characters that just might not be optimized for combat. In fact, some NPCs might never ever see combat.
As a DM, I don't get this.
I don't stat things I'm not going to use. Why would I fully stat out an NPC if I wasn't going to use those stats?
I firmly belong to the school of "Don't roll unless it matters, don't stat it out unless you're going to roll it, and use your dang imagination."
Or rather, "stat out" == "fight".
Which in my game it doesn't.
Fair enough, but your first post sure didn't make it sound like that's all it was... "Us GMs" was a bad start.
All this assumes that "use" == "fight". Which in my game it doesn't. If it does in your game, then absolutely, why bother?
No, it assumes stat out == fight.
I have tons of NPCs that don't fight! I just don't painstakingly go through their BAB and their levels and PRCs and all that garbage because there's no point to it.
I've never stated out a simple commoner. Not once. I don't see the point to it. It's just math for math's sake.
Ok, now that I'm looking over the archetype, and not just what I remember from it, Celestial Ally isn't the replacement for Divine Grace, the improved mount is.
Now unfortunately, you are fairly restricted in what you can summon outside of animals, since there are a total of 4 angels or archons on the list. That's more a problem with the lack of Good aligned summons (all 7 of them) than the class itself, but oh well.
Plus, they still get Aura of Justice, meaning they can soup up their summons's Smites.
Aaaand I just read that line that says only one ally can be summoned at a time. No more 5 t-rexes, and I don't think this is worth it anymore.
Divine Grace is replaced by the "free" Celestial. As the OP said, 1 point of Linguistics...except that you don't pick and you don't get the linguistics roll.
I think this is a really interesting flavor to the Paladin. I'm not a big fan of losing LoH and all the Mercies, but the benefits are quite nice, even if the Summon Monster is limited to 1 at a time. Seriously, though. Voice of the Spheres?