Ultimate Combat: What's up with gnomes?


Product Discussion

Scarab Sages

So I'm reading UC and one thing that struck me was how odd it was that gnomes were a listed as a prerequisite for both the Earth Child style and Twin Thunders Flurry alongside dwarves. I though we were done with gnomes being dwarves smaller brothers.

These feets don't resonate at all with the first world flavor of Galrion's gnome population nor was the tie to earth and stone all that strong in the APG gnome writeup. Yes I know that the core line is 'setting neutral' but this looks like stuff recycled from 3.5. And I like my gnomes all feyish.

OTOH, the Haunted Gnome feet chain is so awesome I want to go build a character to use it. Maybe a paladin or a samurai.

Dark Archive

Matthew Trent wrote:

So I'm reading UC and one thing that struck me was how odd it was that gnomes were a listed as a prerequisite for both the Earth Child style and Twin Thunders Flurry alongside dwarves. I though we were done with gnomes being dwarves smaller brothers.

These feets don't resonate at all with the first world flavor of Galrion's gnome population nor was the tie to earth and stone all that strong in the APG gnome writeup. Yes I know that the core line is 'setting neutral' but this looks like stuff recycled from 3.5. And I like my gnomes all feyish.

OTOH, the Haunted Gnome feet chain is so awesome I want to go build a character to use it. Maybe a paladin or a samurai.

old habits die hard?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ultimate Combat is setting-neutral, and as gnomes still receive racial bonuses against giants, it makes sense to give them access to feats specially designed for fighting giants.


bttr, gnomes were once (alchemy in the renaissance) elementals of earth?


Everyone knows gnomes were created by the Immortal Fey as a race of slaves, only to escape during Moonfall and establish their own kingdom nestled in the mountains, built on advancing understanding, knowledge, and arcane science, with the ultimate goal of creating their own "god." Of course, this is seen as the ultimate blasphemy by the dwarves who are rather eager to wipe out the gnome menace. And the gnomes see the dwarves as backwards yokels who happen to occupy a whole lot of resources they want.

Nobody knows who started the first battle between them.

Nobody really cares.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32, 2012 Top 4

Matthew Trent wrote:
So I'm reading UC and one thing that struck me was how odd it was that gnomes were a listed as a prerequisite for both the Earth Child style and Twin Thunders Flurry alongside dwarves. I though we were done with gnomes being dwarves smaller brothers.

The intention of my original turnovers for these two feats was to create a fighting style and feat chain based on the Defensive Training racial trait that both dwarves and gnomes share. They were meant to help dwarves and gnomes fight giants. I think the description of the Earth Child fighting style on page 79 does a good job explaining how that style was developed and why dwarves and gnomes now use it. Since Twin Thunders was a feat chain and not a fighting style, it didn't get the luxury of such descriptive text.

Scarab Sages

Tom Qadim wrote:


The intention of my original turnovers for these two feats was to create a fighting style and feat chain based on the Defensive Training racial trait that both dwarves and gnomes share. They were meant to help dwarves and gnomes fight giants. I think the description of the Earth Child fighting style on page 79 does a good job explaining how that style was developed and why dwarves and gnomes now use it. Since Twin Thunders was a feat chain and not a fighting style, it didn't get the luxury of such descriptive text.

I do agree that the Earth Child Style feels a bit less jarring. Its a very slight complaint based mostly on flavor. I'm can't help but think that I would like it more if it didn't actually list dwarf and gnome as prerequisites but only listed the defensive training racial trait. This would both not set of my finely tuned gnomedar and allow future races also have trouble with giants to take the feats.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ah, but in theory, a race could be created who has Defensive Training against, say, Shapechangers, or Elves, and not against Giants, and allowing that race to take Earth Child or Twin Thunders wouldn't make quite so much sense, would it?

Scarab Sages

Revan wrote:
Ah, but in theory, a race could be created who has Defensive Training against, say, Shapechangers, or Elves, and not against Giants, and allowing that race to take Earth Child or Twin Thunders wouldn't make quite so much sense, would it?

True. You could do that or you could give them different traits and say Defensive Training does this and only this every time I say it.

I know what my preferred methodology is but your mileage may vary.


Name Violation wrote:
Matthew Trent wrote:

So I'm reading UC and one thing that struck me was how odd it was that gnomes were a listed as a prerequisite for both the Earth Child style and Twin Thunders Flurry alongside dwarves. I though we were done with gnomes being dwarves smaller brothers.

These feets don't resonate at all with the first world flavor of Galrion's gnome population nor was the tie to earth and stone all that strong in the APG gnome writeup. Yes I know that the core line is 'setting neutral' but this looks like stuff recycled from 3.5. And I like my gnomes all feyish.

OTOH, the Haunted Gnome feet chain is so awesome I want to go build a character to use it. Maybe a paladin or a samurai.

old habits die hard?

Well that is Old Habit's first level feat (fighter class).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Matthew Trent wrote:
Revan wrote:
Ah, but in theory, a race could be created who has Defensive Training against, say, Shapechangers, or Elves, and not against Giants, and allowing that race to take Earth Child or Twin Thunders wouldn't make quite so much sense, would it?

True. You could do that or you could give them different traits and say Defensive Training does this and only this every time I say it.

I know what my preferred methodology is but your mileage may vary.

Setting aside whether it's a good idea to call something that represents the same concept, but against a different group, something else, it's too late for that. A gnome's Defensive Training is already different from a dwarf's--a dwarf's only encompasses giants, but Gnomes also get it against Reptilian creatures.

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