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I'm DMing for three 14th-level characters who have been around since level 1. As they increase in power, I'm finding it hard to challenge them realistically--I don't want the whole world to scale up with them!
They're currently on the trail of a nascent demon lord they've hated since about level 10. The first few cultists of his they encountered were pretty easy encounters for them. Should his cultists just get more powerful as they get closer to him? How do I challenge my players without making this ridiculous?
This is of course one of the main challenges of the 1-20 system. If you are going to let your players past say level 8 then you have to accept that they are going to be super heroes, and you'll have to abandon realism pretty much in it's entirety. You have to understand that the real world, and even the vast majority of fantasy and action adventure media are playing E6. They never go past level 6, and normal people are 5 levels max of an npc class.
Once you cross level 8 you are no longer in the world of realism, you are in the world of the rediculous. The players are superman and the green lantern, and you damn sure have to have villains to match, or it wont be a challenge. If you aren't prepared for that, you should paste E6 or E8 over the existing pathfinder system to prevent this problem from occuring in the first place.
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You need to know what the nascent Demon Lord's resources are beforehand.
Who's his general? His three "captains." His top advisor, etc.
Then you can put them where they go in the setting and give them mooks or whatever as appropriate.
If you don't want the PCs, for metagame reasons, to get much more powerful, you need to make sure the general, captains, etc. aren't so powerful. Maybe the general is a Marilith (CR 17) -- the PCs could take that now in a tough fight.
If you decide the general is a Balor and the captains are mariliths, though, your PCs can only deal with the captains, one at a time, now.
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Thanks for the ideas! Kolokotroni, I understand that the E6 system might be appropriate in some games, but I really do want this to go to really high levels. The idea is for them to fight the CR 20 nascent-demon-lord when they are level 18 (an epic fight for 3 players). The main problem is that besides his top advisors, I'm kind of stuck for things to throw at them so that they have enough XP to gain 4 more levels.
Thanks for the ideas! Kolokotroni, I understand that the E6 system might be appropriate in some games, but I really do want this to go to really high levels. The idea is for them to fight the CR 20 nascent-demon-lord when they are level 18 (an epic fight for 3 players). The main problem is that besides his top advisors, I'm kind of stuck for things to throw at them so that they have enough XP to gain 4 more levels.
That is just fine, but well then it is time to leave behind 'realism'. You have to have the 'villain of the week' style situation of sunday morning cartoons. There must be exceptional cultists (high level clerics) or perhaps wizards/casters capable of summoning demons. In fact your best bet is to supplement slightly stronger cultists with your demon lords minions. Its time to break open the bestiary(ies) and look for things in higher CR ranges. Your 14th level pcs shouldnt be facing things with less then a 10 CR. Also keep in mind, higher level encounters can turn into a game of rocket tag, so every encounter should have multiple enemies. You dont want a single save or a single crit to finish or nearly finish off an encounter.
Basically I think its time for your demon lord's cultists to start walking around with a couple Hezrou or Glabrezu or maybe Vrocks about to help put a hurt on those pesky adventurers.
Personally (and maybe it's just me), I don't see your PC's gaining 4 levels chasing down cultists. It's time to break things up. Have them take out one "cell" of cultists and find some clues that might lead to others but not without additional resources.
That gives you time to offer some side adventures unrelated to the main adventure (chasing down the demon lord), earning the PCs experience, wealth, fame, etc. All the while the PCs are, generally, working towards their goal, but not everything has to be directly related to it. Good luck!
It seems reasonable to me that the cultists who are closer to the demon would be more powerful than the lower ranking cultists.
If there is a need to pump up the difficulty, have the characters chase the demon into the Abyss. Then the world DOES scale up with them!
It seems reasonable to me that the cultists who are closer to the demon would be more powerful than the lower ranking cultists.
If there is a need to pump up the difficulty, have the characters chase the demon into the Abyss. Then the world DOES scale up with them!
What the bald guy said.
Also they are hitting the levels where extra-plane adventures become more workable. Perhaps the demon lord is active on an elemental plane as well? If they have a cleric/oracle/witch in the party then perhaps the deity/patron might be having a problem that they want the PC's to solve. Ultimately the problem will lead back to the Deamon but not right away.
Basically your players are becoming powers and they will get noticed. The existing powers will try to remove or use these new kids to their advantage.
It seems reasonable to me that the cultists who are closer to the demon would be more powerful than the lower ranking cultists.
If there is a need to pump up the difficulty, have the characters chase the demon into the Abyss. Then the world DOES scale up with them!
This. Environments that force them to burn resources just to survive there will help keep things interesting. If you have to go to another plane, planet, or even underwater for longer than a minute, you're out of your element, and therefore vulnerable to anything that might neutralize the magic/items you're using to breathe water, or not melt into magma.
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I really started running into this problem playing the Savage Tide AP from Dungeon a couple years ago. Once the PC's hit about 18th level even squads of Glabrezu and Mariliths were speed bumps. Only the unique demons provided any challenge and only if they had some support mooks tailored to challenge the PC's.
--Vrock you like a hurricane
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Great advice, Treantmonk. I will probably take your suggestion and send them down to the Abyss, then; if not to defeat him there, at least to get more information on HOW to defeat him. And I agree with Dave that it's time to switch up their environment a bit so it's a hazard all on its own.
Thank you, and if anyone has any other suggestions I would love to hear them.
Basically your players are becoming powers and they will get noticed. The existing powers will try to remove or use these new kids to their advantage.
This is how I see our game going when the PCs hit the higher levels. The Gods will take notice of them and start to engage them as either potential allies or enemies. They will try to utilize them to accomplish different goals of the Gods and this could create some very interesting and difficult high level encounters for the PCs.
I like to look at the Leadership feat for the Big Bad Guy, though I don't usually have them take it. It gives a nice Structure to his Right-hand Man/Woman/Thing (cohort) and his personal mooks (followers) - some numbers for me to work with.
Then I look at his cohorts Leadership score, and his cohort's Leadership score and so on.
This enables me to see how far from the top the players are. My players are now level 6 and starting to see who the bad guys really are, and will begin unravelling this structure.
I'm DMing for three 14th-level characters who have been around since level 1. As they increase in power, I'm finding it hard to challenge them realistically--I don't want the whole world to scale up with them!
They're currently on the trail of a nascent demon lord they've hated since about level 10. The first few cultists of his they encountered were pretty easy encounters for them. Should his cultists just get more powerful as they get closer to him? How do I challenge my players without making this ridiculous?
Everyone is giving some good advice. I just want to point out that the world isn't scaling with the party. The beings they interact with are scaling. Look at it as a professional boxer. The boxing circuit doesn't change because the boxer gets better. That remains the same. The boxers they fight are more experienced and skilled.
You can always throw twists at them. When they stop the Demon and his cultists, perhaps they find out the demon had friends in even lower places than the party realized?
Or "end" that chapter in the players lives altogether and start them on a new path.
As a DM myself, I don't buy the "Super Hero" thing. That is definitely a fine and fun style of playing... but not the only path.
My example currently is a Steampunk game I'm going to start running, based in a world our group's been building for quite some time.
Sure, the city they start in may have rogues, thieves, murderers, etc. but I have plenty of storylines written to keep the game believable and gritty in the higher levels. There's always the potential for old friends to become new foes, or to bring in new villains to spurn the party.