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Just a few small questions regarding gunslingers:
If I have Rapid Reload and Lightning Reload, can I reload as a free action multiple times per round - and therefore make iterative attacks with my firearm?
Assuming the answer to that is no, the text for an Alchemical Cartridge says that it would reduce the reload time from a move action to a free action, implying I could use rapid reload and alchemical cartridges to make iterative attacks (since there's no "each round" text muddying things up). Would this work - and if so, why have Lightning Reload at all?
Lastly, if I'm wielding two pistols with two-weapon fighting, can I reload without dropping one? I'd heard rumors about a feat in Ultimate Combat making this ability official, but I couldn't find it. Currently my DM has houseruled it as a part of Lightning Reload, since he likes my guns akimbo 'slinger as much as I do.
Kyle Linger wrote: Just a few small questions regarding gunslingers:
If I have Rapid Reload and Lightning Reload, can I reload as a free action multiple times per round - and therefore make iterative attacks with my firearm?
"If she as the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead."
I think the confusion is coming from "a single barrel." I think that wording was chosen to disallow loading both barrels of a double-barrel weapon as a single free action.
Let's say you have a double barrel weapon loaded. You fire both barrels. You can now reload one barrel and fire again. You could not however load both barrels are fire again (even though it is a free action because you're limited to loading a single barrel).
If your BAB was high enough, I would allow you to discharge the single barrel again, load and even fire again. You just could never load both barrels as a free action.
Kyle Linger wrote: Lastly, if I'm wielding two pistols with two-weapon fighting, can I reload without dropping one? I'd heard rumors about a feat in Ultimate Combat making this ability official, but I couldn't find it. Currently my DM has houseruled it as a part of Lightning Reload, since he likes my guns akimbo 'slinger as much as I do. Nope. You need a hand free to load a firearm (Ultimate Combat, p. 136).
I don't know of a feat that does that.
I asked this question once before here: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/fAQClarificationLightningReloadAndMultipleAttacks
Most people seem to think Lightning Reload only works once per round. They interpret the free action sentence as a modification of the swift action sentence that states once per round. However, the free action sentence never states once per round and you have unlimited free actions.
It's terribly worded and there will always be two interpretations until someone from Paizo speaks up. No one seemed to care when I asked the question earlier but as the book gets into more hands I expect the question to become more common.
You can also reload dual wielded pistols by using weapon cords and paper cartridges.
Round 1: Fire TWF gun first, drop it. Full-attack with remaining pistol. Reload pistol as free (paper cartridge and rapid reload).
Round 2: Use pistol in hand as TWF gun, fire it and drop it. Swift action recover other pistol, full-attack.
Round 3: Repeat, alternating which hand is the primary hand.
Getting that free hand if you're dual wielding pistols is tricky. There is a new spell specifically designed for that (Reloading Hands, page 212), but only one reload per round, and it'd have to be cast on each weapon seperately. It is, however, only a level 2 spell.
As a DM, I wouldn't be opposed to saying you can hold a pistol between arm and side to give you that free hand as opposed to fully holstering it, or doing a "juggle reload", where one firearm is in the air as you reload the other one and switch, requiring an acrobatics or slight of hand roll. However, niether action is technically covered by the rules and would need DM arbitration.
By the wording, Rapid Reload using a metal or alchemical cartridge makes reloading a free action, just like a hand crossbow, so I don't see a reason why you can't make iterative attacks with that combination alone. The combination does also assume that your using advanced firearms; using early firearms, getting it down to a free action means you're moving awfully dang fast, which is why I think the one barrel clause is there. Say you have a pepperbox, rapid reload, and lighning reload. You're going from a standard action to a free action to reload. However, that speed applies only to a single barrel. If you want to reload all of them at once, that's still a move action (because you have rapid reload). There are many rules and such that are aimed at campaigns that possess early firearms, but not advanced firearms. Keep in mind that the existance of advanced firearms can make many things related to early firearms quite superfluous. Which firearms are available is up to the DM based on their campaign, though alchemical cartridges do muck that up a bit.
Roaming Shadow wrote: (snip: Reloading hands spell)
(Snip: 'juggle' reloading)
(Snip: rapid reload and alchemical cartridges)
The reloading hand spell sounds nice, but this character is trying to shy away from magic for roleplay reasons. Still, as she comes to trust mages more it might be an option.
I talked to my DM about holding a pistol under my arm while reloading, and asked if I could use quick draw to abuse free actions and make full attacks - my exact words. He allowed it based on the fact that it makes me that much more awesome, both mechanically and thematically, and I agreed to adhere to the rules for reloading while dual-wielding if they're ever printed.
The thing about alchemical cartridges is that, if your load time is a move action (pistol with rapid reload) they specifically make it a free action with no limit, allowing for full iteratives (thus making a pistolero with hammer the gap and clustered shots incredibly deadly, even without dual wielding). Theoretically you could do this even before you get lightning reload, though it's expensive. (However, for campaign reasons, we're using the Rogue Trader rules for ammo. For those of you unfamiliar; we buy a large ammount of ammo to start - say 200 rounds - and are then assumed to always have enough ammo for our mission. Our allies back at the 'base' maintain our supply while we're gone, making new ammo and powder and so on. So alchemical cartridge abuse is on the table until the DM vetoes it for being ridiculous :p)
Pistoleros are fun once they hit 13th level. With Signature Deed (Up Close and Deadly), they can add precision damage to each of their attacks.
With the TWF chain, Rapid Shot, Haste and a Double barreled pistol, they can make 18 attacks per round at level 16, dealing 126 damage on average without even hitting.
Lightning Reload is pretty useless for a musket master or a pistolero. And I don't see a reason to play another type of gunslinger than those two archetypes.
This will never be FAQed or errataed, because the definitions of "once per" and "each" are factually not the same, and the definitions are self-explanatory. "Per", by itself, is defined as "each". The limiter "once" is what changes the meaning. The confusion stems from saying you can only perform a swift action once per round, when we already know how many swift actions we can take in a round, by the definition of swift action. People read that and they try to think of a reason for the redundancy, and end up assuming the limitation also applies outside of the sentence in which it appears.
If Paizo actually meant you could use the deed only once per round, regardless of how far you reduced the reload speed to, they would have stated that you can't reduce the speed of reloading beyond a swift action with that deed, they would have used the same language in reference to both load speeds, they would have put the uses per round of the deed in a separate sentence, or they would have added a clarification in the FAQ. Since the language is not the same, and Paizo has taken zero opportunities to FAQ or errata the deed in the past three years, then it logically follows that the language is correct. The definitions within the language are clear, allowing the reloading of a single barrel of a firearm with that deed and either Rapid Reload or an alchemical cartridge, as many times as your GM allows the taking of free actions in a round.
The only thing a GM can do to stop a gunslinger from utilizing their full attack rate is to limit the number of free actions creatures can take in a round, or houseruling the deed to say "as a free action once per round". Or ban gunslingers.
You realize you just necroed this thread? No one is really arguing this anymore. There has been lots of FAQs
Slacker2010 wrote: You realize you just necroed this thread? No one is really arguing this anymore. There has been lots of FAQs Someone else asked the question in another thread, though I don't really see why that required necroing all the old ones.
That said, is there actually a FAQ on Lightning Reload specifically? I didn't see one.
I do read it as limited to once per round and I believe that's the common interpretation, but the language is odd.
Slacker2010 wrote: You realize you just necroed this thread? No one is really arguing this anymore. There has been lots of FAQs And this thread is a year older than the other one, even.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Is there an actual answer to this somewhere? I can't find errata, FAQ, or dev comment about this, necroed thread or not.
Slacker2010 wrote: You realize you just necroed this thread? No one is really arguing this anymore. There has been lots of FAQs Yes, I necroed this thread. It was partially an attempt to bring it back up so a community manager or someone might see it, so maybe someone would actually give an official word on it.
If you have an actual link to an official FAQ entry, or a Paizo blog entry - or even a comment in a thread made by a Paizo employee will do! - that clears this up, I would appreciate it greatly if you'd supply it. Thanks in advance!
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