James Jacobs said in the ask James Jacobs thread that paladins of Asmodeus was an idea of that particular author and that if he (Jacobs) had caught it, it would never have seen print. He aditionally said that it would never again see print in an official Golarian book. As he is the creative director, I take that to mean that paladins of Asmodeus don't exist.
I didn't say Paladins of Asmodeus. I said Paladin Hellknights, and Paladins in Cheliax. Both of which are rules-legal and confirmed.
I'm not sure if anyone is interested, but this topic interested me enough that I decided to write about it a bit on my blog. The article is primarily a thought exercise about how fantasy worlds and life within them would grow and evolve from a technological and civilization standpoint with magic in them.
I figured since this thread was what got me thinking about it, I figured I'd share what I wrote, in case anyone would find some entertainment value in it.
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Yes, elves of Golarion.Really? Where? More importantly what book Can I read about this in?
Well, it IS mostly restricted to elves, and doesn't exactly link the current cities. Indeed, most of the elfgates are off in the wilderness in strange areas.
They feature prominently in the second to last module in the Second Darkness AP.
===Aelryinth
I thought she might be talking about elfgates, but it's been awhile since I read the book. I thought maybe I forgot something.
Elfgates are not everyday trannsport. WIth the exception of a few they're highly secretive and/or used for military tactical purposes. Most of them have special code words, or only work during the third full moon every odd leap year, or some other restriction that makes them less than useful.
Money issues aside (which would be a long term investment for a higly magical long lived community Like elves), Perrmanent teleportation circles between major elven metropolises would be brilliant. Charge a modest fee and the thing would eventually pay for itself. After all what's 100 years to an elf? (answer:Puberty)
I'd say travel every odd leap year is every-day travel to elves. I'd also say that they don't care about making money. These gates did in fact link their cities. Why would you let other people use your super-magic highway?
Besides, they just tell everyone the keys are complicated... or they forgot them... the truth though...
Between "Wall of XXXXXXX", Portable Holes, Bottomless Pits, and things like Decanters of Endless Water, you should be able to completely ruin any neighboring kingdom's water table, wash away all their topsoil, flood their cities, etc., etc.
And all without crossing the border.
Besides, who cares if they import slaves? It doesn't make Geb any less of a successful, enduring nation - many other nations of Golarion import slaves too, or wheat, for that matter.
-Kle.It means they aren't replacing their own living population from the living population...they are continually having to go out and grab people to avoid being depopulated.
The post directly above is marvelous. The reason they can export food is that the creatures collecting taxes don't want food...so they export it for something they do want...likely slaves.
===Aelryinth
Ah, I see where you're coming from, now.
You think that not having a large, thriving population of living citizens is important, somehow.Geb doesn't care about that, their citizenry that matters is largely intelligent undead, and the living necromancers they like to have emigrate probably flock there in (relative) droves.
Large numbers of living citizens are not necessary to a successful nation.
-Kle.
They are neccessary to a nation that doesn't want to kill itself right out of existence, due to births not replacing deaths. Hence, they have to slave raid to keep numbers up.
==Aelryinth
More undead nonsense.
People don't emigrate to areas with undead roving all over the place.I bet they could if it was a safe land with low taxes and good prosperity. Education, propaganda, whatever you wanna call it can see to this.
Because when the undead get out of control, they go looking for the living to prey on.No. They. Don't.
YES. THEY. DO. 'Evil cunning'. Zombie language that they expressly go looking for stuff to kill. Both Mindless Undead. These are creatures that are actively seeking to do evil.
There are no 'skeletal armies' of skeletons on horseback, because each is a 3 HD mindless undead combo that needs a controller. A troop of 10 would need an 8th level controller just to be moved in the correct direction. They are also level 1 and inept at their fighting task. Average human troops are level 2 and would rip them apart. But somehow wouldn't know to use a mace or morningstar against them, I'm sure...or just bash with a shield.An undead horse is 2 HD. An undead archer is 1 HD. Even using Diego Rossi's limit of 4 HD per 1st level adept (despite the effect using the item's CL of 5) that means that a single human can control a horse and two skeletons. Meanwhile, adepts can also wear armor and have simple weapon proficiency, but screw weapon proficiency 'cause they adepts don't even have to fight. They can load themselves down with whatever armor and shields they want to make them harder to kill, while giving orders to the front-line.
so you have one guy around who can't fight directing a mindless, fairly inept creature that can fight. That's a sergeat for every private, corporal, and lance corporal...and the sergeant can't fight. That's a recipe for military disaster.
I see that liches who make cities can make water sources, but armies living in desert areas can't. Way to have a double standard. An army isn't planting crops, and one decanter would provide water for a lot of men and beasts. Once they got to your cultivated area, you've got the food ready for them.Normal societies have to split their population between different roles and military. This society literally has x4 the working population of its actual living members, and 100% of that working population can be converted to military force at a moment's notice. Living people have to deal with people going off to fight wars too, but with undead that's easier....
Your example of 'working population' doesn't work, because 100% of the living population statistically cannot control 100% of the undead population. By pure statistics, half the population isn't even capable of BECOMING an adept, due to ability scores. Others will simply not have the time nor inclination. And anyone who isn't an adept, like, oh, the EXPERTS who actually do the work in town, is, under this system, just raw fodder for undead, and a drag on the system. It does not work.
Having undead going off to war is not 'easy'. They have to be controlled, and controlled all the time. While controlling undead, its hard to get anything productive done, so...ooops, you'll need intelligent non-controllers to actually accomplish anything that requires basic SKILL RANKS. Jeez, again, the not-100% comes back to bite you. Behind every single horseman, you need to have a human adept directing it...someone who needs to be provided for just like every other human.
I love how your utopia has no place for anyone with sub-11 mental ability scores, and somehow assumes everyone can become an adept, when its completely apparant by the city building rules that that is completely impossible.
And my reference to the cost of material corpses was twofold: one, Animate Dead isn't free, and 2) you actually have to get the body, put the thing in their mouths, and then animate them. You can't just wave a hand and they stumble to their feet all around you.
Reach spell converts a touch spell into a ranged touch spell. Given the short range, it's still unlikely to be of use on a battlefield, especially given the problems controlling the new undead unless the caster has 'used up' his old ones. All the soldiers have to do is drag their dead away, or not lay them close together, or even chop off their heads, and Animate Dead will do no good whatsoever. It's an easy spell to foil. A non-intact corpse cannot be animated.
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All the of spells to create undead are evil, and use negative energy.
All undead are inherently evil, negative energy lifeforms.
All the inflict line of spells are inherently evil, and use negative energy.
The negative material plane's interaction with the prime is suffused with evil, whether you like it or not. It may not be absolute, death is a part of the natural order, but UNDEATH clearly is not, and clearly is Evil in all ways.
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As for Hellknights and paladins, the only reason a paladin would be in such an Order would be to redeem it from within and lead its people out from under the aegis of Hell. Buying into an order that proclaims the greatness of Hell, one of the great enemies of Good, is simply buying into Hell's propaganda that Good can't do the job. Paladins don't support Hell OR their propaganda. I suspect that "Hellknight" Paladins never call themselves that, but simply refer to themselves by their order, and would get REAL angry at being called a "Hellknight". Wouldn't YOUR paladin?
As for Cheliax, where in the world did you get the idea that the people are happy there? They live in a dictatorship. The church is rewriting history and murdering dissidents. It is oppressing all other faiths, especially Good ones. The Hellknights are a scourge and whip to keep the people in line with masters who don't give a Damn about them, and everyone knows it. Devils stalk the streaks and can be seen in the skies. Non-humans are discriminated against as rampant racisim is on the rise.
There's nothing 'happy' about it, nor did Asmodeus 'save the nation'. The House of Thrune killed anyone in their path on the way to power, oppressed everyone mercilessly once they got it, and are doing everything they can to solidify their grip even more. There's a whole cottage industry in smuggling slaves and liberating people from Cheliax...they certainly don't have an IMMIGRATION problem! As a major slaveholding state, they are desperate for lower end workers to shore up the regime!
Asmodeus is a god of tyrants and elitist heirarchies, not a god of the common people. The only use for people lower on the scale is to lift their betters above them on their groaning backs.
==Aelryinth
More undead nonsense.
People don't emigrate to areas with undead roving all over the place.I bet they could if it was a safe land with low taxes and good prosperity. Education, propaganda, whatever you wanna call it can see to this.
Because when the undead get out of control, they go looking for the living to prey on.No. They. Don't.
YES. THEY. DO. 'Evil cunning'. Zombie language that they expressly go looking for stuff to kill. Both Mindless Undead. These are creatures that are actively seeking to do evil.
Did I say zombies? Did *I* say *zombies*. No. I said skeletons. You are adding information to the skeleton entry that doesn't exist. It says they possess an evil cunning which specifically allows them to wield weapons. There is no where that says they go off and start killing people at random. You are factually making stuff up.
So as long as you are trying to add more to it, you are going to need to provide the proof in the form of written citation from within the rules. Otherwise you have nothing, so stop bothering me about this.
There are no 'skeletal armies' of skeletons on horseback, because each is a 3 HD mindless undead combo that needs a controller. A troop of 10 would need an 8th level controller just to be moved in the correct direction. They are also level 1 and inept at their fighting task. Average human troops are level 2 and would rip them apart. But somehow wouldn't know to use a mace or morningstar against them, I'm sure...or just bash with a shield.
Assuming the majority of soldiers are 1st level warriors, that puts them about on par with the skeletons. See, the warriors have +1 BAB over the skeletons, and an average of 1-2 more hit points, but the skeletons have +2 natural armor, a +2 dexterity, and a DR 5/bludgeoning. The DR makes them difficult to harm using traditional weapons such as crossbows, longspears, glaives, swords, bows, axes, and basically anything except throwing hammers, club-like weapons, and slings, which gives the undead the advantage. A set of undead archers can basically rain arrows from skeletal horseback with relative immunity from reprisal, if they stay out of slingshot range (which is easy on horseback).
Meanwhile if you wish to close into melee, the skeleton's can happily wield longspears as reach weapons, while others have to close into adjacent melee to fight with them, as skeletons ignore 5 points of damage from every pole arm in the core manual.
An undead horse is 2 HD. An undead archer is 1 HD. Even using Diego Rossi's limit of 4 HD per 1st level adept (despite the effect using the item's CL of 5) that means that a single human can control a horse and two skeletons. Meanwhile, adepts can also wear armor and have simple weapon proficiency, but screw weapon proficiency 'cause they adepts don't even have to fight. They can load themselves down with whatever armor and shields they want to make them harder to kill, while giving orders to the front-line.so you have one guy around who can't fight directing a mindless, fairly inept creature that can fight. That's a sergeat for every private, corporal, and lance corporal...and the sergeant can't fight. That's a recipe for military disaster.
Adepts have simple weapon proficiency, cast divine spells, and so forth. Adepts are perfectly capable of fighting. They are perfectly capable of using stuff like sleep and obscuring mist to adjust a battlefield. You effectively have waves of undead with guys behind them spamming spells. If you don't like the undead horse idea, you can go the extra mile and sent undead oxen at them. 3 HD burning skeletons who have 16.5 HD, inflict 1d8+9 damage on a gore attack at +7 to hit, deal an extra 1d6 fire damage, 1d6 fire damage to creatures adjacent to them, and when you kill them, they explode for 1d6 fire damage. They're also immune to fire, allowing you to happily drop fireballs on them while they're fighting your enemies with no harm to them at all.
Your example of 'working population' doesn't work, because 100% of the living population statistically cannot control 100% of the undead population. By pure statistics, half the population isn't even capable of BECOMING an adept, due to ability scores. Others will simply not have the time nor inclination. And anyone who isn't an adept, like, oh, the EXPERTS who actually do the work in town, is, under this system, just raw fodder for undead, and a drag on the system. It does not work.
Anyone can become an adept. Even according the UM book all it takes is practice. Regardless of what your stats are you can be an adept. You can go to school to be an adept. You might really, really suck at being an adept and can't cast spells yourself because your Wisdom is 9 or lower, but you can still activate magic items relying on your spell-list. So, once again, you're wrong.
Also, it works great. Experts aren't really needed for most things. Adepts get 2+ Int modifier skill points per level. Human adepts will get at least 2 skill points per level, and that's assuming a 7 Int, and putting their favored class hit point into HP instead of skill points. Meanwhile, Adepts have both Craft and Profession as class skills, as well as every Knowledge skill, and Handle Animal. Thus each expert learns the basic skills taught in your society that are considered critical (in this case, you are training everyone to do this, like we train children to read), and then each adept also studies a field of expertise to enter into professionally, including artisans, scholars, builders, and tacticians.
Honestly, there's not a darn thing lost for molding your citizens into adepts. Making studying to become an adept mandatory would be merely be part of your society.
Having undead going off to war is not 'easy'. They have to be controlled, and controlled all the time. While controlling undead, its hard to get anything productive done, so...ooops, you'll need intelligent non-controllers to actually accomplish anything that requires basic SKILL RANKS. Jeez, again, the not-100% comes back to bite you. Behind every single horseman, you need to have a human adept directing it...someone who needs to be provided for just like every other human.
And again you're making stuff up. Controlling the undead is passive and only requires verbal communication. Each is effectively an untrained laborer. Meanwhile your population still has skills they can preform, and have their undead servants assisting them with. The skeletons can be made to assist with tasks, and overseen by the professional as untrained workers as per the rules. It says clearly that you can oversee the work of those not trained.
You walk into a tavern and there's an owner of the bar named Daniel. He's an adept. His skill ranks are Profession (Innkeeper). Under his command are 4 HD worth of undead who wait tables and carry luggage. In the back of the tavern is the cook Maria with Craft (Cooking) or Profession (Cook) and her 4 HD worth of assistants who improve the speed of her cooking, and place pots of water to boil, and so forth. Meanwhile across the street is Turin the Smith with Craft (Blacksmithing) and his 4 HD worth of undead who help him by pumping bellows and hammering iron under his direction. He even has a burning skeleton on staff who can hammer metal while it's still in the forge to get it into shape faster, before Turin puts the finishing touches on it.
That's not to say anything for Madam Brightwillow the local instructor at the college. She's a 3rd level adept and has a staff of 12 HD worth of janitors and assistants who put books on shelves, carry school supplies, and clean the hallways while she instructs students in the fields of Alchemy, Art, History, Religion, Mathematics, Arcana (with a total modifier of +5 in each making her a professional) as she teaches the next generation of youths about the world and its wonders.
Now that being said, the biggest issue the community would face is "what do we do when we run out of bodies"? Well then you revert to being just like other communities since you still have plenty of trained professionals in different fields, and you can just wait for people to die. There's no hurry to run out and start killing your people because you ran out of undead. The undead are to supplement your population, not be your population.
Meanwhile, law can be strictly enforced. It's commonly accepted that death is an acceptable punishment for criminals in D&D (unless you want to argue that paladins should fall for fighting badguys), so any rapists, murders, or career criminals will be put to the sword and their bodies put back to work. You wipe out the decay in your society and bolster the workforce.
Then there's also animals. You can raise livestock for use as food and labor. You can kill a cow or ox for meat, and then animate it as a skeleton. As written the flesh falls off the bones, making it easy to collect up and distribute, while acquiring another animal to carry heavy loads, plow fields, drag things, or port things around, or just to function as a mount from getting from point A to point B (since oxen do have a 40 ft. base speed).
I love how your utopia has no place for anyone with sub-11 mental ability scores, and somehow assumes everyone can become an adept, when its completely apparant by the city building rules that that is completely impossible.
I see no city building rules in the core rulebook. Perhaps you mean the optional rules presented in the Gamemastery Guide. We're building our community custom, and have no need for its suggested guidelines which are not part of the core rules, anymore than sanity and madness are.
And my reference to the cost of material corpses was twofold: one, Animate Dead isn't free, and 2) you actually have to get the body, put the thing in their mouths, and then animate them. You can't just wave a hand and they stumble to their feet all around you.
Actually you can when the material components are pre-factored into a charged magic item. It's a basic rule for magic items, and this was discussed earlier. The only real issue you have after the initial cost of the magical items is of course the bodies, which I noted before. As more people are born, more people will die. Likewise, not having an influx of dead bodies doesn't actually hurt your society at all, since you still have people who are well educated and professionally trained in every field. The worse case scenario would be that someone will do the grunt labor they would otherwise have to do without the undead anyway.
Reach spell converts a touch spell into a ranged touch spell. Given the short range, it's still unlikely to be of use on a battlefield, especially given the problems controlling the new undead unless the caster has 'used up' his old ones. All the soldiers have to do is drag their dead away, or not lay them close together, or even chop off their heads, and Animate Dead will do no good whatsoever. It's an easy spell to foil. A non-intact corpse cannot be animated.
That's entirely true. However, that would require them to have the time an inclination to burn all their dead bodies during the battle, and after it. The problem with that is you A) won't have the opportunity during the battle and B) if you lost the battle you are likely fleeing, dead, or captured, so good luck with it then too. In fact, the only time that you would have this convenience would in fact be if you won the battle against the undead on their home turf in weather than causes nonlethal damage to your army for merely being present, and then after defeating this army who is immune to all these things, immune to fear, and immune to morale failure and fights to the last without hesitation.
All the of spells to create undead are evil, and use negative energy.
All undead are inherently evil, negative energy lifeforms.
All the inflict line of spells are inherently evil, and use negative energy.The negative material plane's interaction with the prime is suffused with evil, whether you like it or not. It may not be absolute, death is a part of the natural order, but UNDEATH clearly is not, and clearly is Evil in all ways.
True.
False.False.
False.
Good job, you got 3/4 of those statements 100% wrong.
Fact: Not all undead are evil. Ghost can be of any alignment. In addition, benevolent ghosts have appeared in at least one Adventure Path.
Fact: Inflict spells and the vast majority of the necromancy school, almost all of which specifically channels or calls upon negative energy don't even have the [Evil] descriptor, and are not defined as evil at any point in the core rulebook. They don't even say that a cleric channeling negative energy is an evil act in Pathfinder, so a Lawful Neutral cleric can channel negative energy from dusk 'till dawn and not so much as blip the radar. Likewise, none of these spells will show up as evil in the presence of a detect evil spell.
You sure are good at being wrong.
As for Hellknights and paladins, the only reason a paladin would be in such an Order would be to redeem it from within and lead its people out from under the aegis of Hell. Buying into an order that proclaims the greatness of Hell, one of the great enemies of Good, is simply buying into Hell's propaganda that Good can't do the job. Paladins don't support Hell OR their propaganda. I suspect that "Hellknight" Paladins never call themselves that, but simply refer to themselves by their order, and would get REAL angry at being called a "Hellknight". Wouldn't YOUR paladin?
That's pretty much exactly the opposite of the quotes I presented to you previously. They join the Hellknights because the hellknights enforce order and make life better overall for the people around them. Some are evil, some are good, most are neutral, but all are lawful and serve the people through their acts of order. They do not worship devils, nor do they serve hell. They are champions of law and order.
As for Cheliax, where in the world did you get the idea that the people are happy there? They live in a dictatorship. The church is rewriting history and murdering dissidents. It is oppressing all other faiths, especially Good ones. The Hellknights are a scourge and whip to keep the people in line with masters who don't give a Damn about them, and everyone knows it. Devils stalk the streaks and can be seen in the skies. Non-humans are discriminated against as rampant racisim is on the rise.
Who said anything about HAPPY? I didn't say that Chelaxians were happy, any more than I said that the inhabitants of that science lab of a gold-dragon ruled city were happy, or that I said people in the United States were happy. Happy is relative. My copy of the campaign setting, however, notes that they are more efficient, brought their country out of a civil war, and regained their country's former glory (if not righteousness), and that the nation thrives once more.
As for rewriting history, murdering people, and so forth - well that's a pretty big deal, and is based around religion. It is because of their faith that they do this. They are choosing to press for their own power and control rather than benefiting their nation's people in more direct ways, such as education and the like. Cheliax is ruled by people who worship devils, and pray to devils, serve devils, ally with devils, and basically consort with guys who are made of evil in its purest form.
Sorry, but no matter how much wind you blow, you're not going to convince me that a primarily Lawful Good acting society like the one I'm describing is going to be like that because they employ undead as a labor source. That's just stupid.
Also, the Hellknights aren't a scourge based on the lore I have in my copy of the campaign setting, nor by the quotes I provided from the designers in my previous post. Likewise racism has no benefit to the social structure outside of isolating yourself religiously or genetically, as has been done in reality to avoid tainting religions or bloodlines. This isn't something that is required in a society, nor is it conductive to efficiency, nor is it any way associated with the subject I've been discussing.
Asmodeus is a god of tyrants and elitist heirarchies, not a god of the common people. The only use for people lower on the scale is to lift their betters above them on their groaning backs.
Which is something I never suggested he was (a god of the common people, I mean). Likewise, it sounds like they need some undead who won't be bothered with the groaning back problems.
Reach spell converts a touch spell into a ranged touch spell. Given the short range, it's still unlikely to be of use on a battlefield, especially given the problems controlling the new undead unless the caster has 'used up' his old ones. All the soldiers have to do is drag their dead away, or not lay them close together, or even chop off their heads, and Animate Dead will do no good whatsoever. It's an easy spell to foil. A non-intact corpse cannot be animated.
That's entirely true. However, that would require them to have the time an inclination to burn all their dead bodies during the battle, and after it. The problem with that is you A) won't have the opportunity during the battle and B) if you lost the battle you are likely fleeing, dead, or captured, so good luck with it then too. In fact, the only time that you would have this convenience would in fact be if you won the battle against the undead on their home turf in weather than causes nonlethal damage to your army for merely being present, and then after defeating this army who is immune to all these things, immune to fear, and immune to morale failure and fights to the last without hesitation.
You can increase the spell level to increase the range. a one level bump makes it short range, two makes it medium, etc. Expensive, but possibly worthwhile. Please read the feat before you make incorrect comments.
Your spells go farther than normal.
Benefit : You can alter a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium to increase its range to a higher range category, using the following order: touch, close, medium, and long. A reach spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level for each increase in range category. For example, a spell with a range of touch increased to long range uses up a spell slot three levels higher. Spells modified by this feat that require melee touch attacks instead require ranged touch attacks.
Spells that do not have a range of touch, close, or medium do not benefit from this feat.
a simple Reach Animate Dead is going to be level 4. Extending the range rapidly puts it into the area of high level NPC's only, which reduces the effectiveness. And the means to stop the process are easily done adn followed by disciplined soldiers, although Ashiel seems to want to make the living inept and as mindless as skeletons. Unlike undead, living soldiers can think.
Ah, creating a 'custom' city, which naturally does not follow the rules of city building. So, in other words you conveniently ignore the rules you don't like to further the ones you do. Statistically, you cannot create a city of adepts. It is impossible. So you are applying house rules, and rosy interpretations of undead behavior. Congratulations.
An expert who is controlling 4 different undead is not doing what he needs to be doing. THe undead are mindless, they have no skill ranks, and they will regularly flub up even aid another checks because of it.
Ghosts are a special exemption from the case of alignment, as you well know. Even then, they can be twisted into evil exceedingly easily, and often are, even if they came from Good people.
You keep trying to limit 'evil cunning' to mean 'weapon proficiency'. No, it means they are Evil, and they are cunning, and they share the mindless state with zombies. It means they actively seek to do Evil, as indicated by their alignment. You cannot handwave that. I see that the only reasons you are choosing skeletons is so that you can escape the language of zombies. Sorry, doesn't work. If they are not being actively controlled, they go look for living things to kill.
And making a skeletal zombie might slough the meat off, but that doesn't mean the meat is still edible. There are actually very few things that can eat the negatively-charged meat off of undead, it's actually called out in a few creature descriptions that will eat undead or their remains.
The average warrior in a field army is going to be a warrior/2-3, not a warrior/1. The skeletons can only fire as many arrows as they own, but your conveniently spell-less adepts who can still control undead are going to be the targets of ranged attacks, not the undead. Kill the level 1-2 adepts giving orders, and the mindless skeletons will simply close to attack and be slaughtered by guys wielding clubs, maces, staves, tetsubos, morningstars and maces. The burning guys are going to inherit channeled positive energy and never get to strut their stuff..they are too obvious, after all. And Adepts don't cast fireballs, so you're talking PC classes, which is evenly balanced again. And burning skeletons have next to no out of combat uses, so that means you have a sunk cost, in undead sitting around with nothing to do, but tying up controllers who have to ride herd over on them. Lose that control, say, by SLEEPING, and you have a major problem on your hands.
Furthermore, cavalry is not the sole province of the undead, surprise, surprise. Archers on horseback are going to be wiped out by any unit of cavalry that comes along. Polearm using skeletons are going to have to contend with shields, and the frequent deaths of their controllers from missile fire is going to make keeping them in formations impossible.
Spontaneous inflicts and channel negative energy are the only options available to evil clerics. Neutrals 'can' use them, but it's a choice, and shades their alignment as anything dealing with necromancy does. Trying to disassociate the two effects from their usage isn't working, either.
There is no Paladin alive who will call themselves a Hellknight. Just TRY to justify that. "Yes, I'm a Lawful Good paragon of humanity, and I call myself a HELLKNIGHT."
Sorry, no. Belonging to an Order would not make them a Hellknight, and they'd bridle at any thought of it. YOu CANNOT reconcile that term with their alignment, period. Hell is about law and Evil, not just Law.
And the Hellknights are oppressive, enforcing laws regardless of their worth, caring only about the law and not the meaning behind it, be it tyrant or just king. They tend to be merciless, harsh, and overzealous in pursuit of their duties, at least as presented in any of the gaming material put out in Golarion. A Paladin would proclaim his Order to be one of Knighthood, not Hellknighthood. Otherwise, he's dipping into the service of evil, regardless of his wishes, and going to lose his paladinhood. Trying to talk around that point is NOT going to work. There are things paladins cannot compromise on, and lending muscle to an order that espouses the views of Hell is one of them. The Hellknights turning a blind eye to admitting LE members would effectively bar any paladin from membership in such an order, as well as the name, under the 'association with Evil' clause of their Oaths.
Ergo, the only way a paladin could belong to such an order is if it did NOT allow Hellknights, stayed LN and LG, and effectively was an Order and not an Order of Hellknights.
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A nation of pure undead inevitably degrades into stasis and nothingness, because undead lack the creativity and drive of the living. If Geb could endure without the living, I'm sure they would have done so. They know otherwise, and so they do not...they make sure they have enough living to provide stimulus to the entire nation. Claiming the rulership is an effect of power, not of choice by the living. If they stopped slave raiding, Geb would rapidly collapse in upon itself...it simply cannot endure without new blood. It's an excellent showing of what would happen when you start throwing around undead, and then intelligent undead gather to control the lesser ones, and force the living into servitude.
And yes, all those intelligent undead in Geb are Evil.
===Aelryinth
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Also, I find animating skeletons less morally wrong on a philosophical level than making golems. You have to enslave a sentient creature (an elemental) to create a golem, whereas with mindless undead you take a body and pump lots of neutral energy into a neutral object and then command it around with magic (like an unseen servant with a body).
You build a construct, not a "proper" golem. I was using the term golem as a general reference, should have used animated object. No elemental powering it.
The skeleton problem is the same of the animated broom in Disney Mickey The Sorcerer's Apprentice. When you lose control it will continue is previous activity independently from the changing conditions and reassuring control, for the example adepts, require another set of magic items.
I started playing with first edition, so I have absolutely no problem with skeleton and zombies as mindless automatons. I would dislike zombies for esthetic and health reasons but well polished skeletons aren't a real problem.
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Sure, the city will grow fast, but after a certain limit its growth will outpace the capacity of the single spellcaster to provide for it.
That is why I was saying that to get it above a certain size you need multiple spellcasters.
every soldier they lose in the battle would be animated and added to the queen's ranks
She need to retrieve the bodies to animate them (not so easy for the dead outside the city walls). I suppose she has enough magic items casting animate dead that she would have no problem with the material component.
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Stone to Mud Cast in a metal bering mine channal the Mud into sluses to filter the heavy metals and you have masively increased the mines productivity by Effectivly "super crushing" the ore bering rock leaving the metal nuggets whole.
This spell turns natural, uncut, or unworked rock of any sort into an equal volume of mud.
Where it say that it will not turn the metal to mud too? Maybe it could work if the rock contain pure nuggets of something, but rocks like limonite or pyrite will simply turn to mud and you will be incapable to recover the iron content.
Same thing for most of the minerals containing metals in a not pure form.|
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Yeah, there's not much they could do against a comet. Might make for a great plot hook (say a conspiracy of nations trying to wipe out the necropolis, like 01 from the Animatrix), but I think sicking the Tarrasque on the city might backfire.
If by some chance the inhabitants of the city were to slay the Terrasque long enough to remain dead for a few rounds, the lich could teleport to the Terrasque and then animate it while it was dead, turning it into a giant zombie-terrasque (and thus breaking its regeneration cycle), and then destroy it once and for all.
The most likely method I can think of for killing the tarrasque would be to swarm it with an army of undead throwing Liquid Ice (alchemical item from the advanced player's guide). It would take about 200 soldiers to kill the tarrasque this way, and bombing it from the sky via flying creatures would be do-able as well. If only 80% of them hit his AC 5 touch AC, that would be enough to 525 damage to the Terrasque, and finish him off on the following round. After killing it, you have 3 rounds to raise it, or it springs back to life.
Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0).
You can't use animate dead on a fallen Tarrasque as he is not dead. You fist need to stop the regeneration, they you can kill and animate it. Not the reverse.
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I'd say travel every odd leap year is every-day travel to elves. I'd also say that they don't care about making money. These gates did in fact link their cities. Why would you let other people use your super-magic highway?
In one of the Second Darkness AP modules you use the ayudara (SP?) gate network. Ono eof the gates you will use see so much travellers that the elves have refreshments ready for them, are no surprised to see a mixed race party and offer keys for other gates in the network for sale.
It don't seem a super secretive, never used network. Some gate work that way, most are in inconvenient locations for people wishing to travel between human cities (most of them were constructed 10.000 year ago, in our world a teleport network linking Assur, Kalku, Kharrnd, Nimrud and Khorsabad, the cities of the Assirian empire, wouldn't see much traffic) but some are in the right location and are used for fast transportation.
Simply, most of the guy controlling them don't want to share the secret of using them with the wider populace. They are a great way to undercut merchant competition.
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A fully magic embracing society would definitely dominate the world in terms of economics. Magic can produce free-labor after initial investments, can grow more food for less, can defend itself better, so on and so forth.As much as you think it would, for the most part though it never happens, something always puts the society in check, or for a perpetual dirt nap before it can develop that far. Also there may be an inherent limit towards how much a society can embrace magic if the ability to do so requires something beyond that which can be taught, an inborn talent that's required even for Wizards and Clerics.
The problem with super magic societies would be kind of like the one that had open access to anti-matter. Eventually some insane genius would do something that spoils the party for everyone. Karsus comes to mind.
Science has a strong "advantage" against magic for the "insane genius" scenario. With science it is relatively easy to "stand on the shoulder of giants" and get to the top level of scientific achievement without the need to "reinvent the wheel" at every generation.
With magic (as least how it work in our game world) you need to work hard and have decent initial stats to be capable to cast level 9 spells. And then he need to get 17 levels. So getting to do serious damage require a long and arduous dedication.
With science a guy with a sharp and deranged mind, a good education in the "right" field and enough resources could, theoretically, do a lot of damage at a early age.
So, in theory, a magic kingdom could be a bit more stable than a technological one.
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All the of spells to create undead are evil, and use negative energy.
All undead are inherently evil, negative energy lifeforms.
All the inflict line of spells are inherently evil, and use negative energy.The negative material plane's interaction with the prime is suffused with evil, whether you like it or not. It may not be absolute, death is a part of the natural order, but UNDEATH clearly is not, and clearly is Evil in all ways.
True.
False.
False.
False.
Sorry Ashiel, but for Pathfinder rules the only non-evil undead possible is the ghost.
We can disagree as we have played in other version of the game, but in this version it was a developer decision to make all the undead (again with the exception of the ghost) inherently evil.
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The skeleton army will have problems. Mindless soldiers aren't so good.
You can get them to charge in a direction and slay anything they find, but then you need to either have they "handlers" in the middle of the army (so removing most of the advantages of using a undead army) of they will not be capable to change tactic when the situation change or to adapt to the tactical actions of the enemy.
"Attack that way and slay everyone you encounter." Fine, the other army wheel around and away from the charging skeleton army. The skeletons continue their march through the desert, pausing to kill everything they meet.
Every time a handler fall the skeleton he control will follow the last order. That mean that you have an army were some of the troops are going in one direction while the other are following different orders.
Archers that will try to fire their crossbow even after they have finished their supply of ammunition (technically a skeleton know the same weapons of a common specimen of his former race. For a human that mean he will be proficient in 1 simple weapon and his claws).
A competent enemy commander would concentrate his attacks against the "handlers" first. A army of mindless undead will be much more susceptible to the loss of his commanders than a normal army.
In most mass combat rules I know a army of mindless undead fight as a mob. That is, very inefficiently when compared to a disciplined army.
Sorry Ashiel, but for Pathfinder rules the only non-evil undead possible is the ghost.
All the of spells to create undead are evil, and use negative energy.
All undead are inherently evil, negative energy lifeforms.
All the inflict line of spells are inherently evil, and use negative energy.The negative material plane's interaction with the prime is suffused with evil, whether you like it or not. It may not be absolute, death is a part of the natural order, but UNDEATH clearly is not, and clearly is Evil in all ways.
True.
False.
False.
False.
And I said as much. Blanket statements are usually wrong.
We can disagree as we have played in other version of the game, but in this version it was a developer decision to make all the undead (again with the exception of the ghost) inherently evil.
Evil cunning enough to use weapons, but not to do anything else. Truly, everyone who says they go off on a killing spree or similar is trying to re-write the game to suit them, not giving an honest and truthful representation of the rules.
The skeleton army will have problems. Mindless soldiers aren't so good.
You can get them to charge in a direction and slay anything they find, but then you need to either have they "handlers" in the middle of the army (so removing most of the advantages of using a undead army) of they will not be capable to change tactic when the situation change or to adapt to the tactical actions of the enemy.
It depends. It is much easier to move an undead army over long distances quickly and efficiently through a desert, compared to most. A few shaded carts being pulled by undead warmachines for the adepts to ride in while they go. The whole army can literally run around at x4 or x3 (if heavy armor) speed no matter how hot it is, making them more maneuverable in terms of geographic movement.
Every time a handler fall the skeleton he control will follow the last order. That mean that you have an army were some of the troops are going in one direction while the other are following different orders.
I don't really find this to be a huge issue. They keep fighting, which means the pressure stays on.
Archers that will try to fire their crossbow even after they have finished their supply of ammunition (technically a skeleton know the same weapons of a common specimen of his former race. For a human that mean he will be proficient in 1 simple weapon and his claws).
Firstly, you're making up the crossbow thing. There's nothing in the rules that supports this idea. Once the skeleton can no longer fire the ranged weapon, it is no longer a ranged weapon (merely a glorified club) anyway.
Technically they are proficient with the weapons their bodies were. Since you will require your civilians to be trained as adepts, all your skeletons will be proficient with all simple weapons, which is good enough for general-purpose soldiers (longspear, sling, etc). Likewise, having them carry a few flasks of acid and you have basic grenadiers, as their skeleton selves have +1 to hit over their normal race due to Dex, and a net +5 to initiative.
A competent enemy commander would concentrate his attacks against the "handlers" first. A army of mindless undead will be much more susceptible to the loss of his commanders than a normal army.
I agree with this, but they do have some advantages. All they have to do is give orders. They can happily bunker down in heavy armors, with a shield, while behind their unit (soft cover), and so forth. With banded mail (+7), dexterity (+1), heavy shield (+2), soft cover (+4) each guy would have an AC of 24 vs incoming missile attacks. AC 26 if they fought defensively, or AC 28 if they total defense. Arm them with slings and grenade-like weapons and they can continue to assist in combat, as they just wildly toss flasks of acid or alchemist fire at a -8 to -18 penalty. Being splash weapons, even if they miss they're still contributing.
Please Note: I never said that an undead army would be perfect. Just perfect for this type of terrain. I was noting and detailing an unusual city that embraces magic and undeath in the middle of a vast, hot desert. Anyone who tries to move an army against them has to deal with food, water, weather, and heat exhaustion something terrible. The vast bulk of an undead army is either outright immune or heavily resistant to any of those issues.
Heat deals nonlethal damage that cannot be recovered from until the character gets cooled off (reaches shade, survives until nightfall, gets doused in water, is targeted by endure elements, and so forth). Once a character has taken an amount of nonlethal damage equal to her total hit points, any further damage from a hot environment is lethal damage.
A character in very hot conditions (above 90° F) must make a Fortitude saving throw each hour (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a –4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and might be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well (see the skill description). Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per hour).
In severe heat (above 110° F), a character must make a Fortitude save once every 10 minutes (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a –4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and might be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well (see the Survival skill in Using Skills). Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per each 10-minute period).
A character who takes any nonlethal damage from heat exposure now suffers from heatstroke and is fatigued. These penalties end when the character recovers from the nonlethal damage she took from the heat.
In short, an army of humanoids marching through the desert would be forced to make DC 15 saving throws every 10 minutes, with a +1 to the save DC each time, so DC 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 every hour. If they're wearing heavy armor, they get a -4 penalty to this check. Essentially, a solid portion of your army (including animals) WILL fail their saves and suffer 1d4 nonlethal damage and become fatigued.
So at the very least the army must avoid heavy armor which means less AC. Horses that cannot run or charge are pretty useless. Soldiers who are on the brink of passing out don't fight so well. Armies would need to stop and rest to avoid losing men to exhaustion, slowing their movements greatly.
That is why the city stands so impervious to being taken by force, and why it exists comfortably in a desert. Its very autonomous and surrounded by vast tracks of hot desert which make leading an army against it, or meeting its undead army in it, a very bad idea.
Ah, creating a 'custom' city, which naturally does not follow the rules of city building. So, in other words you conveniently ignore the rules you don't like to further the ones you do. Statistically, you cannot create a city of adepts. It is impossible. So you are applying house rules, and rosy interpretations of undead behavior. Congratulations.
Those rules don't exist in the core, and are outside the scope of my interest. While I have the Gamemastery Guide, I'm not impressed with a lot of what is in it (Orcs are CR 1/3 with greataxes but Barmaids are CR 1 with a blinking drink attack). Likewise, I was discussing building a utopia from scratch. I'm pretty sure that gold dragon's city with all the eugenics and perfect people probably doesn't fit the mold exactly either, since he invites people based on his whims and tries to control the growth of the city and his people in his little science project.
The topic was "Spells and wold changing shenanigans", so I'm talking about how the world could be changed using said spells and magic. I'm talking pro-activity to build your nation. We're talking about providing labor and resources and having adept training be mandatory as part of general education. Your society will have less need for grunt labor, so if you want efficiency then everyone else should be a professional, and taught a trade in addition to enough basics of magic that they can serve society. The net result of course is a society of adepts who each have a craft, profession, knowledge, handle animal, or survival skill, who can cast basic spells such as cure light wounds, can learn to craft magic items, and who can control the undead labor of the population.
You keep trying to limit 'evil cunning' to mean 'weapon proficiency'. No, it means they are Evil, and they are cunning, and they share the mindless state with zombies. It means they actively seek to do Evil, as indicated by their alignment. You cannot handwave that. I see that the only reasons you are choosing skeletons is so that you can escape the language of zombies. Sorry, doesn't work. If they are not being actively controlled, they go look for living things to kill.
And you're making it up. Skeletons aren't zombies. Hell, even the zombie bit is debatable because right after it mentions killing living things it then turns around and says they can't do anything but follow orders. This subject has been debated to exhaustion before.
Suffice to say that being evil does not mean homocidal killing machine. Likewise, being mindless does not mean you are a zombie. Skeletons are called out as having an "evil cunning that allows them to use weapons", but possess nothing else describing any sort of behavior, and their Int is likewise similar to golems.
And making a skeletal zombie might slough the meat off, but that doesn't mean the meat is still edible. There are actually very few things that can eat the negatively-charged meat off of undead, it's actually called out in a few creature descriptions that will eat undead or their remains.
Nothing says the meat isn't edible. There we go adding stuff again.
The average warrior in a field army is going to be a warrior/2-3, not a warrior/1. The skeletons can only fire as many arrows as they own, but your conveniently spell-less adepts who can still control undead are going to be the targets of ranged attacks, not the undead. Kill the level 1-2 adepts giving orders, and the mindless skeletons will simply close to attack and be slaughtered by guys wielding clubs, maces, staves, tetsubos, morningstars and maces. The burning guys are going to inherit channeled positive energy and never get to strut their stuff..they are too obvious, after all. And Adepts don't cast fireballs, so you're talking PC classes, which is evenly balanced again. And burning skeletons have next to no out of combat uses, so that means you have a sunk cost, in undead sitting around with nothing to do, but tying up controllers who have to ride herd over on them. Lose that control, say, by SLEEPING, and you have a major problem on your hands.
In the core rules there's nothing that says what the average warrior is. However, the average level of the warriors in the bestiary is 1st (see orcs, hobgoblins, goblins, kobolds, etc). Even the mighty hobgoblins who live, eat, and breath war are most commonly 1st level Fighters. In fact, it seems odd to assume that every 1st level soldier is 2nd level.
Also - and this is a fun one - burning chickens. Chickens breed fast and are easy to produce. They also make wonderful burning skeletons who can be ordered to run headlong into an enemy army as a kamikazi attack. Each chicken deals 1d6 fire damage whenever it hits, 1d6 fire damage to all adjacent foes, and 1d6 fire damage when it dies. They're also immune to fire which is kinda cute.
If a unit of burning undead chickens charged into a unit of living troops, the result would be devastating for the troop. You could fit 4 tiny chickens in a single 5ft space, and the chickens are immune to their explosions, so if you kill several chickens then everyone in a 10ft radius takes several d6 points of fire damage, then 1d6 more fire damage for every chicken within 10ft of you when the chickens begin, and then if the chickens hit, 1d6 more fire damage (in addition to the 1 nonlethal damage). Even expecting the lose some chickens, the result is devastating.
And like you said, the burning chickens are purely for exploding. Burning undead are pretty much just for that. You expect to destroy them, because that's what they are - walking bombs. On a side note, they aren't entirely useless. They could be placed inside stone containers to form a fire pit which could be used for various things, including heating a house.
Also you don't lose control by sleeping.
Guys, guys, guys. Guys. Guys!
I got it: prestidigitation + trap = showers! A new utopia for all!
Alternatively...
blob of acid (cantrip) + prestidigitation (cantrip) + trap = toilets of win!
Now for the derailing...
Also, Aelryinth, Diego, and Ashiel - let's just all agree to disagree agreeably. M'kay? ('Cause seriously. It's fascinating... but two pages long.)
Alternately, from 3.X, as for more reality-altering stuff...
* Take one (1) intelligent undead^ who wants to "go good".
* Gain access to spell: Create Archon.
* Go good-guys
^This could also be performed with deathless, for a more thematically appropriate way.
In Golarion: summon one (1) ifreet. Ask for twenty (20) nail-clippings (they don't have claw-attacks, so those are clearly nails). Use simulacrum 20 times. Gain 60 wishes per day from a delighted thrall who's immune to fire, even though made of ice. Chortle evilly.
NOTE: house-rules about ifreets being super hot (RAW) tranferring to nails to auto-melt ice (not RAW) will be summarily ignored. If we must, let's go with djinn and a hair-cut. Free use for many, many more simulcra. Alternatively, alternatively... do this once with djinn, create blue ice, and then do it with ifreets, and don't worry about ice melting. Weeeee!
Reach metamagic rod anyone?
Guys, guys, guys. Guys. Guys!
I got it: prestidigitation + trap = showers! A new utopia for all!
Alternatively...
Nice. I like it. Since 0-level spells are considered to be 1/2 level when making magic items, the cost of an infinite shower would be about 250 gp. Public baths would be cheap, efficient, and do your laundry at the same time.
blob of acid (cantrip) + prestidigitation (cantrip) + trap = toilets of win!
That would work. Heck, prestidigitation alone should do it too. ^.^
Ashiel, I generally agree with you in many cases, but it would've been helpful, I think, if we truly understood that you were talking about a desert city you were making up. Not your fault, but that does kind of help in my understanding, at least. Generally, by RAW, you're completely correct. I might not like all the implications, but it does often enough make sense, and I'm impressed with the consistency of the RAW. Well done.
Thank you. I try to keep as precise as possible, and explain stuff as best as I can. I'm sorry if there was confusion as to the city thing. I did actually include a large paragraph of text during my discussions talking about the city, before people began making up reasons it wouldn't work. I guess it got lost in the mix.
In Golarion: summon one (1) ifreet. Ask for twenty (20) nail-clippings (they don't have claw-attacks, so those are clearly nails). Use simulacrum 20 times. Gain 60 wishes per day from a delighted thrall who's immune to fire, even though made of ice. Chortle evilly.
This would actually work very well. On a side note, the piece of the creature to be created was removed in Pathfinder, so you don't have to have a piece of the efreeti. Knowledge of their existence would suffice. Simulacrum is actually fairly inexpensive for what you get as well. Fortunately, wish isn't quite as powerful as it used to be, but it is nice to be able have what amounts to a spell-provider on hand. Heck, you could raise 60 people a day from the dead by using it to mimic raise dead. Spiffy. ^.^
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In Golarion: summon one (1) ifreet. Ask for twenty (20) nail-clippings (they don't have claw-attacks, so those are clearly nails). Use simulacrum 20 times. Gain 60 wishes per day from a delighted thrall who's immune to fire, even though made of ice. Chortle evilly.
Simulacrum
School illusion (shadow); Level sorcerer/wizard 7
Casting Time 12 hours
Components V, S, M (ice sculpture of the target plus powdered rubies worth 500 gp per HD of the simulacrum)
Range 0 ft.
Effect one duplicate creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noSimulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Perception check (opposed by the caster's Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check.
At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner. A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities. If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.
So:
- there is no need for the nail clipping. That component was request by older versions.- "it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)."
What is the appropriate number of wishes for a 5 HD efreeti?
My guess is 0.
Evil cunning enough to use weapons, but not to do anything else. Truly, everyone who says they go off on a killing spree or similar is trying to re-write the game to suit them, not giving an honest and truthful representation of the rules.
By the rules, Skeletons have enough cunning to use weapons and armor. That's it. Period. Attempting to use them for anything else is going beyond the written rules - an interpretation.
Uncontrolled skeletons, RAW, are uncontrolled. That means they don't follow their last orders (that would be a form of control). They do what skeletons do, whatever that is. Now, the 'assumption' that they go off killing things is just that, an assumption, as much as the 'assumption' that they would just mill about acting confused (or standing still doing nothing without orders). Neither is supported by 'rules'.
However, when the rules describe them with 'evil cunning' to 'use weapons' and they are 'Neutral Evil' and 'undead' (which the overwhelming majority DO feed off/hate/attack the living), it's hardly a bad assumption that they might go off killing things - hardly 're-writing the game'. That interpretation of their natural behavior actually has backing in the way skeletons are described, even if it's not explicit.
So:
- there is no need for the nail clipping. That component was request by older versions.
Thanks! :) I forgot that. I still oscillate between the two versions from time to time.
- "it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)."
What is the appropriate number of wishes for a 5 HD efreeti?
My guess is 0.
There's something off about this. Oh, I can't quite put my finger on it... Hm... what is it...?
guess
Ahah! That's the word.
See, that's the thing. Yes, logically, that might be totally correct. By RAW... it doesn't happen. There's no such thing as a "lesser" ifreet. There is a greater ifreet - one of it's *insert fancy sounding name here*, but not a lesser. Until presented with a RAW ifreet-growth-chart, we are left to the RAW which simply states that all ifreet gain the ability to grant wish to non-genies three times per day. In specialized circumstances, this might not be true, but then again, in specialized circumstances monster's may or may not have their stat-blocks as presented in the Bestiary either. As far as RAW is concerned the creatures of the Bestiary are just their own HD - they don't go through any real level-growth process. Nothing like Savage Species exists by Paizo-production for Pathfinder (I'm not even sure there's an 'official' third party, though there may well be). Again, we're just left with GM adjucation... which is effectively ignored RAW.
ALSO, vis-a-vis wish and spell-like abilities v. wish the spell... I'm pretty sure the APG stated rather explicitly that the spell-like could do things the spell couldn't. That said, it hardly matters if it couldn't. First, this would be a very low caster level wish (5th)^ so it's fireballs... well, they'd be singularly unimpressive. Everything would be singularly unimpressive, really, except for specific instances where spells ignore or minimize caster level.
Really, what this would mostly be useful for would be things like fabricate, free permanency, and the like. Being a spell-like ability, not a spell, it needs no material components. LOTS of free continual flames!
^Actually, I'm not sure this is true anymore. I believe Paizo has actually altered spell-progression so that it's no longer tied to monster HD. So it might still be 10th. Still not too terribly impressive, especially for wish, but much better.
Anyhoo, I'm out! Wonderful baby is crying and likely needs changing! Cute kid!
EDIT: kid is currently feeding so I have a moment. Please note, despite the apparent tone... I'm not trying to be mocking or jerky. I'm trying to be warm and wry and entirely friendly. I do wish the internet allowed body language and tone of voice to convey itself, but alas, it does not. Nonetheless, you all have my respect.
EDIT 2: I was just told to try "smurf", so here it goes: smurf
EDIT 3: AND I AM NOW A SMURF! FEAR ME! I AM A GRUMPY SMURF!
You could always learn about an efritte that's got double the normal HD of a standard efritte (like the king or something). Then when you created a simacralum you would get a standard efritte. Just a thought. Some monsters have character levels.
Anyhoo, I'm out! Wonderful baby is crying and likely needs changing! Cute kid!/QUOTE]
"wonderful" and "crying" in the same sentence. *deep thought* Hum.... Lol. Kidding.
Suggestion...
This is true, but I'm trying to go by RAW, and critters with class-levels are part of GM fiat. If 3.X was allowed, I'd simply Energy-Charge the sucker up, then make me some nice simulacra, but that's not really the point. Still, good idea by premise, though. Also, I didn't note it before, but a reach metamagic rod... wow. Just wow.
"wonderful" and "crying" in the same sentence. *deep thought* Hum.... Lol. Kidding.
The even deeper part is where I mentioned "wonderful" and "changing" (as in changing diapers) in the same sentence! The little guy's adorable, though!
CAVEAT FOR THINGS LISTED BELOW - this is quick and dirty, not really getting into specifics, and going only by RAW, as presented in Golarion, not going by theoretical moral, legal, or even logical implications thereof. It works by RAW. If it doesn't work by RAW... let me know with rules citations and pages. Otherwise, complaints to the contrary will be ignored.
Other world-changing idea with magic:
* Create one ring that allows you to Maximized Awaken. For greater effect, make it with Imbue Spell-Like Ability (standard action). Use it on one tree. Present said ring to tree. Repeat. Infinitely. Soon^, you'll have a world^ full of all-18-mental-stat trees. Start training them to be druids (or anything, really) for limitless win. (Just imagine an order of tree-monks! Heh!)
* Philters of Love. No, seriously, just the Philters of Love, as written. That's all you need.
* Simulacrum. Make a ring^^ of it. You know what? Forget everything about an undead work force. Find one 2HD commoner. Simulacrum. Enjoy limitless, free, eternally-loyal labor. Lather, rinse, repeat for any army you'd ever want to create. Bonus points with fabricate.
* Undead-as-evil worries? Not if you're an Oracle with the Juju mystery (found in Serpent's Skull AP)! Feel free to create entirely non-evil undead! Warning: Pharasma might still dislike you. As in, she will.
* Helms of Opposite Alignment: criminals suddenly become great law abiding citizens; this is presuming, of course, they were originally chaotic and/or evil... but mostly presuming they were chaotic, something that's easily detected with a spell or three.
* Speaking of criminals and justice, a permanent zone of truth with a nice pair of goggles of detect lies/magic and a nice, discrete dispel magic before hand means that a criminal will not be able to lie on the stand... neither will the person wearing the goggles, as it can easily be passed to any other. Besides, the only reason the goggles are used is to determine if the convict was affected by the ZoT. Once it's clear that the convict is affected by the ZoT, courts never need worry about reaching a wrong verdict again. Bonus points: goggles curse whoever wears them with horrid charisma while worn, making any attempts at lies (just in case they're biased for some reason) unconvincing.
* Hypnotism. Maximized. Empowered. Now, everything under 9HD (and up to 10^^^) is yours, forever. Glory, and revel in said glory. Bonus: actually cheaper than the philters of love, listed above. Also, you might need a charm monster first, so those philters combined with this would be overwhelmingly powerful. Bonus points for also using diplomacy to actually shift the attitude over time, though that's not really RAW, that's role-play.
One question: Diego, would your baleful polymorph trick work with polymorph any object instead? That might be a nice work-around. I'm not sure about it, though, as I haven't looked too hard at the newest version of PAO.
Oh, brief dip into the Mana Waste discussion... it was caused not just by Wish-fueled warfare, but specifically Wish-fueled warfare to distort reality, sunder opposing magical forces and destroy and mutilate anything and everything that was in its way. Specifically, these were called out as "apocalypses". That's a nasty implication, there. Wish, according Legacy of Fire, from what people have told me, when used without care, causes reality warping. Repeated wish-fueled apocalypses (specifically designed to counter magic that was being used is probably what caused the Mana Wastes, rather than an over-use of magic in general. But that's not really on-topic, unless the OP is interested in developing a Mana Waste.
Finally, in terms of constant magical effects on reality (and potential magical pollution): Azlant has been going strong for the last 10,000 years or so. The entire continent was destroyed, but their nearly-permanent magic built to keep places in good condition has survived mostly intact until fairly recently. Serpentfolk stuff has survived for 15,000 years, although not quite in as good condition... which, considering Azlant was out to destroy it forever, means it was built pretty well.
NOTE: this, again, ignores any house rules, logic-consideration, and anything other than what is directly written and handed to us by Paizo.
^These are terrible, horrible, entirely subjective, and not-really true words. Hush, you. :)
^^Really, it doesn't have to be a ring. It can be anything that can cast the spell more than fire-once-and-finish (so, not a scroll). This holds true for anything I say "ring of ~".
^^^Admittedly, this might be up to 12 HD instead, but I don't feel like looking it up right now.
Gah. Sorry, it's like five AM here, now, and I've been awake the whole time. Ergo, I mistyped at least one thing. Correction is in bold, below!
Hypnotism. Maximized. Empowered. Now, everything under 9HD (and up to 10^^^) is yours, forever. Glory, and revel in said glory. Bonus: actually cheaper than the philters of love, listed above. Also, you might need a charm monster first, so those philters combined with this would be overwhelmingly powerful. Bonus points for also using diplomacy to actually shift the attitude over time, permanently, so that even if the magic is dispelled, it wouldn't matter, though that's not really RAW, that's role-play.
One thing to note with the mind-affecting effects: they are breakable, without a doubt, and hypnotism is limited in its scope. The power comes in spamming them and utilizing judicious and carefully thought-out (but still entirely reasonable) wordings of hypnotism. Using such things as "trust me", and "I'm your friend", or "talk to me", or even "listen carefully" are short, but very powerful with far-reaching effects. Once those are instituted others such as "don't betray me" come into play. One thing I'm unclear of (and this would have to be left to GM adjucation) is whether or not hypnotism stacks with itself or with charm. Obviously, it would limit it's power if it didn't stack with charm (and this would be the typical ruling), but considering it's a permanent shift of an instantaneous attitude, I'd think (although I can't say for sure) that it does (and, I think, though I could be wrong, this'd be RAW).
After a hypnotism has permanently shifted the attitude of a creature by two steps toward a particular suggestion, the question is then begged... can it be done again? If I can shift two more steps on the same creature, I could go from hostile to indifferent and from indifferent to helpful. Suddenly, those suggestions are very reasonable, and far more powerful.
Again, I know what people will say about their game (for the most part), but then again most people wouldn't allow the peasant rail gun, infinite wish machines, or undead computers to work. That's called GM fiat, there's nothing wrong with it, but it's not what we're talking about here. If there is something that is inherently fiat, well, then, it's inherently fiat and, as far as RAW goes, that's where we have to stop and go our separate ways, as there is no one "correct" ruling.
Also, late to the party, but just my two cents (or maybe nine quarters) on the whole "greater teleport" v. "must cast ninth level spells for interplanetary transport": nah. In the Bestiary 2, there's a nine HD creature (Sharrak or something like that) that can, whenever it wants, just pick up and fly right off into space, eventually (hopefully) landing on a planet somewhere. It's got a bit of a miss chance and, truth to tell, it takes a bit, but it's nine HD... right about the time you're getting your fifth level spells. Greater teleport, then is not broken or overpowered when compared to existing guidelines. Something like interplanetary teleport either simply has a poorly chosen name (entirely possible) or has a more specific use (probable) and is safer, or likely or even guaranteed to work (as has been noted). That safety/guaranteed effectiveness trade-off is what many higher level spells do, eliminating the guess-work, making the same effect better. And, until actual errata changes the limit of greater teleport, we've got a clear RAW ruling that tells us anywhere on the plane.
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So:
- there is no need for the nail clipping. That component was request by older versions.Thanks! :) I forgot that. I still oscillate between the two versions from time to time.
- "it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)."
What is the appropriate number of wishes for a 5 HD efreeti?
My guess is 0.There's something off about this. Oh, I can't quite put my finger on it... Hm... what is it...?
guessAhah! That's the word.
See, that's the thing. Yes, logically, that might be totally correct. By RAW... it doesn't happen. There's no such thing as a "lesser" ifreet. There is a greater ifreet - one of it's *insert fancy sounding name here*, but not a lesser. Until presented with a RAW ifreet-growth-chart, we are left to the RAW which simply states that all ifreet gain the ability to grant wish to non-genies three times per day. In specialized circumstances, this might not be true, but then again, in specialized circumstances monster's may or may not have their stat-blocks as presented in the Bestiary either. As far as RAW is concerned the creatures of the Bestiary are just their own HD - they don't go through any real level-growth process. Nothing like Savage Species exists by Paizo-production for Pathfinder (I'm not even sure there's an 'official' third party, though there may well be). Again, we're just left with GM adjucation... which is effectively ignored RAW.
ALSO, vis-a-vis wish and spell-like abilities v. wish the spell... I'm pretty sure the APG stated rather explicitly that the spell-like could do things the spell couldn't. That said, it hardly matters if it couldn't. First, this would be a very low caster level wish (5th)^ so it's fireballs... well, they'd be singularly unimpressive. Everything would be singularly unimpressive, really, except for specific...
Cute.
There is only a little problem.
You are dismissing the RAW that say that the simulacron has only the special abilities appropriate to its new HD.
Any GM can chose what is appropriate, but by RAW they can remove all and any special ability if they want to.
Trying to game the system can seem cute, but is the best way to find playing unsatisfactory.
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* Magic-Jar Tarrasque, enjoy win. (I totally stole this from another thread)
Win against what? You have stopped/controlled the tarrasque for a few hours and then?
* Create one ring that allows you to Maximized Awaken. For greater effect, make it with Imbue Spell-Like Ability (standard action). Use it on one tree. Present said ring to tree. Repeat. Infinitely. Soon^, you'll have a world^ full of all-18-mental-stat trees. Start training them to be druids (or anything, really) for limitless win. (Just imagine an order of tree-monks! Heh!)
a) The trees don’t get the capacity to uproot themselves. So you would have a stationary tree monk. Not so impressive. He is not a treant.
b) Only the first tree is friendly with you. The other are friendly toward the “guy” that has awakened him, not you. The friend of my friend isn’t necessarily my friend.
c) What is “Imbue Spell-Like Ability”?
d) I suppose you want to make a ring that can be used by anyone (BTW, where are the fingers of a tree? You can’t place a ring on a random appendage.). Level 8 spell (maximized awaken), minimum CL 15, costly material component, use activated.
2.000*15*8+2.000*50= 340.000 gp
To get an army of static trees. Nice if you have a forest to defend, useless for word domination.
* Philters of Love. No, seriously, just the Philters of Love, as written. That's all you need.
3.000 gp each.
* Simulacrum. Make a ring^^ of it. You know what? Forget everything about an undead work force. Find one 2HD commoner. Simulacrum. Enjoy limitless, free, eternally-loyal labor. Lather, rinse, repeat for any army you'd ever want to create. Bonus points with fabricate.
And you have a army of loyal 1 HD commoners. Then?
Simulacrons are living creatures, not constructs. They age, eat, sleep and so on. The normal process of reproduction works fine.
* Undead-as-evil worries? Not if you're an Oracle with the Juju mystery (found in Serpent's Skull AP)! Feel free to create entirely non-evil undead! Warning: Pharasma might still dislike you. As in, she will.
Work only for mindless undead.
* Helms of Opposite Alignment: criminals suddenly become great law abiding citizens; this is presuming, of course, they were originally chaotic and/or evil... but mostly presuming they were chaotic, something that's easily detected with a spell or three.
Unless they have less than 5 HD. Aligned creatures with 5 HD or less don’t have a alignment aura unless they are clerics, paladins, outsiders or undead. Read the spell here
* Speaking of criminals and justice, a permanent zone of truth with a nice pair of goggles of detect lies/magic and a nice, discrete dispel magic before hand means that a criminal will not be able to lie on the stand... neither will the person wearing the goggles, as it can easily be passed to any other. Besides, the only reason the goggles are used is to determine if the convict was affected by the ZoT. Once it's clear that the convict is affected by the ZoT, courts never need worry about reaching a wrong verdict again. Bonus points: goggles curse whoever wears them with horrid charisma while worn, making any attempts at lies (just in case they're biased for some reason) unconvincing.
Zone of Truth: Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
So it is possible to lie. Detect magic will not detect if the creature is affected by zone of truth or not, only if the spell is active or not. The spell isn’t targeted on anyone.
Discern Lies: Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance no
Each round, you concentrate on one target, who must be within range. You know if the target deliberately and knowingly speaks a lie by discerning disturbances in its aura caused by lying. The spell does not reveal the truth, uncover unintentional inaccuracies, or necessarily reveal evasions.
Again, even discern lie can be fooled. And read the italicized part of the text.
* Hypnotism. Maximized. Empowered. Now, everything under 9HD (and up to 10^^^) is yours, forever. Glory, and revel in said glory. Bonus: actually cheaper than the philters of love, listed above. Also, you might need a charm monster first, so those philters combined with this would be overwhelmingly powerful. Bonus points for also using diplomacy to actually shift the attitude over time, though that's not really RAW, that's role-play.
Hypnotism: Duration 2d4 rounds (D)
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
Your gestures and droning incantation fascinate nearby creatures, causing them to stop and stare blankly at you. In addition, you can use their rapt attention to make your suggestions and requests seem more plausible. Roll 2d4 to see how many total HD of creatures you affect. Creatures with fewer HD are affected before creatures with more HD. Only creatures that can see or hear you are affected, but they do not need to understand you to be fascinated.
If you use this spell in combat, each target gains a +2 bonus on its saving throw. If the spell affects only a single creature not in combat at the time, the saving throw has a penalty of –2.
While the subject is fascinated by this spell, it reacts as though it were two steps more friendly in attitude. This allows you to make a single request of the affected creature (provided you can communicate with it). The request must be brief and reasonable. Even after the spell ends, the creature retains its new attitude toward you, but only with respect to that particular request.
A creature that fails its saving throw does not remember that you enspelled it.
“Yours forever” is being 2 step more friendly for 1 “brief and reasonable” specific request? - Ok you have amended it in the successive post. Yes, with a lot of work you will make one guy friendly. If he don't make a ST at the start of the attempt or during one of the following use of hypnotize.
* One question: Diego, would your baleful polymorph trick work with polymorph any object instead? That might be a nice work-around. I'm not sure about it, though, as I haven't looked too hard at the newest version of PAO.
As a rat and a horse both have intelligence 2 the effect should be permanent: same kingdom [animal] +5, Same class [mammal] +2, Same or lower intelligence +2. Total +9, the minimum for a permanent effect.
A bit excessive to use a level 8 spell to produce draft horses or cows.
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people wouldn't allow the peasant rail gun,
The peasant rail gun is an attempt to keep some of the game rules and some of the reality rules and blend them in a way that don't work in either reality.
- in reality held action don't allow instantaneous transference of item through a chain of people.
- in game transferring a item between multiple persons don't make it accrue any momentum. The speed at which the item moved between point A and B along a human chain don't impart it any acceleration. It simply end in the hands of the last peasant at 0 speed and the peasant can throw it for his normal throwing distance.
* Magic-Jar Tarrasque, enjoy win. (I totally stole this from another thread)
Win against what? You have stopped/controlled the tarrasque for a few hours and then?
Apparently RAW it's possible, but there seems to be some debate on the matter.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/tarrasqueMagicJarInstantApotheosis&page=1#35
First, let me say, I'm not encouraging players to use these ideas. Second, house-ruling them away (by particular reads of lines or such) is totally fine. Third, I've placed my stuff in spoiler tags so you can read or skip at your convenience. Forth, please read this as if I'm speaking with a warm, wry, friendly voice, as that's what I intend, but it's not too easy to convey online. Fifth - smiley! :)
Bah! I don't like your ideas, they're expensive, and besides I wouldn't really allow them anyway, probably. :)
First! I never said they're not expensive. The OP started with something that was ridiculously, prohibitively difficult to afford. What I did say was that these could change the world. :)
Onto that...* Magic-Jar Tarrasque...
Win against what? You have stopped/controlled the tarrasque for a few hours and then?
Win against whatever you want to. You control the Tarrasque for a few hours. Let me repeat that: YOU CONTROL THE TARRASQUE FOR A FEW HOURS. That's huge. That's all it takes to annihilate many things that would stand in your way. That said, regardless of what's written in the bestiary, the Tarrasque can totally be killed in-canon of Golarion. Because it's dead right now. It can also be raised in the canon of Golarion. Ergo, this isn't a bad idea for world-changing. Raise it, take it over, use it, then kill it again. I'm not saying it's easy, but I am saying that it's not a bad idea for RAW world-changing spell-shenanigans. The thread TCG linked has a few debates over how well it works to kill the Tarrasque, but you've got in-game canon that outright explains that the Tarrasque is totally dead - deader than a door nail - and magic jar works as magic jar will work, so it's a fine idea; also it's not actually mine.
* ring of Awaken.
a) The trees don’t get the capacity to uproot themselves. So you would have a stationary tree monk. Not so impressive. He is not a treant.
Actually, it exactly creates the ability to uproot itself: it treats the tree as if it were an animated object. The thing is, you can rule that it doesn't get a move speed, but by RAW it gets a move speed. You can rule that it can't go anywhere, but that's your interpretation of a ruling... when it clearly gets a move speed.
b) Only the first tree is friendly with you. The other are friendly toward the “guy” that has awakened him, not you. The friend of my friend isn’t necessarily my friend.
True, but it'll undertake minor tasks for you. It's a chain of command thing. It doesn't matter too much if you don't like it or don't want to worry about a chain of command - it's a weak chain of command. Also, the friend of my friend is much more likely to be my friend when my friend introduces me and I'm not a jerk. But again, that's RP! :)
c) What is “Imbue Spell-Like Ability”?
My bad, I meant "Imbue with Spell-like ability". Witch is now "imbue with spell ability" and been severely limited anyway, so, you know, it doesn't work in Pathfinder. Not entirely sure it would work in 3.X - I never tried this trick, but spell-like abilities are a standard action, regardless of the spell's casting time, unless specified in the creature description. That was the reason for making it spell-like - to adjust the Awaken time to a standard action.
I suppose you want to make a ring that can be used by anyone (BTW, where are the fingers of a tree? You can’t place a ring on a random appendage.).
Yep (irrelevant, and you you totally can). How, precisely, would you rule where a ring goes on a creature without hands? Nonetheless, you missed my note at the bottom of my post...
^^Really, it doesn't have to be a ring. It can be anything that can cast the spell more than fire-once-and-finish (so, not a scroll). This holds true for anything I say "ring of ~".
Level 8 spell (maximized awaken), minimum CL 15, costly material component, use activated. 2.000*15*8+2.000*50= 340.000 gp
Totally doable and worth it if you think it is.
To get an army of static trees. Nice if you have a forest to defend, useless for word domination.
Very, and no that's wrong. It's great for world domination. I mean, if you own (or are terribly friendly with) every single forest in the world? Oh, yeah, you got your world domination. Forcing people out of (or to destroy) forests counts as a win big time, even if you accept the (rather terrible) ruling that they're stationary. Need more soldiers? Plant a tree. There are plenty of ways, with magic, to make this work. Go to it, read a book, communicate with it.
* Philters of Love. 3.000 gp each. See my opening statement on expenses.
* Simulacrum.
And you have a army of loyal 1 HD commoners. Then?
Simulacrons are living creatures, not constructs. They age, eat, sleep and so on. The normal process of reproduction works fine.
Actually, according to simulacrum,...
Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Perception check (opposed by the caster's Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check.
(and other irrelevant things)
So, no, they're not real creatures. They look like real creatures, but they're illusions formed of ice and snow that appear like the real creatures. It says nothing else about their dietary needs, habits, or the like. Worst comes to worst, however, it's a much faster means of reproduction, with creatures who are loyal to death to you. That's ridiculously powerful, no matter what. Having thousands of first level commoners is still pretty powerful. I gave one example - that of using first level commoners - but really simulcrum could be used for anything. Learn as much as you can about Tar Baphon: okay, a nice fifteenth level (or so, I'm guessing Tar's about thirty) lich is now yours. Or maybe a hundred of them. Razmir annoying you? Why not replace him? With him! Seriously, it's now about the most powerful thing you can do.
* Undead-as-evil worries? Not if you're an Oracle with the Juju mystery (found in Serpent's Skull AP)! Feel free to create entirely non-evil undead! Warning: Pharasma might still dislike you. As in, she will.
Work only for mindless undead.
I never said it wouldn't. I'm just giving a different take on the "undead are evil" rejoinders that were all over the place. Here, in fact, is a non-evil way to have lots of undead. Sum total.
* Helms of Opposite Alignment: criminals suddenly become great law abiding citizens; this is presuming, of course, they were originally chaotic and/or evil... but mostly presuming they were chaotic, something that's easily detected with a spell or three.
Unless they have less than 5 HD. Aligned creatures with 5 HD or less don’t have a alignment aura unless they are clerics, paladins, outsiders or undead. Read the spell here
Admitted. I've forgotten about the 5HD rule! I'm not sure (I don't have my PF book right now), but does the Paladin's ability (which differs from the spell in a few ways) have that ability (to detect evil)? Nonetheless, it's still a powerful and useful item. Criminals with more than 5HD will be more useful to turn than criminals with less. Further, criminals with less HD can more easily be converted to accepting an atonement (through fear, intimidation, diplomacy, etc) or even a geas and atonement combo (the geas doesn't have to be some epic thing) to take care of them. Helms are likely to be used more for those who are too big to be swayed with words.
* Speaking of criminals and justice, a permanent zone of truth with a nice pair of goggles of detect lies/magic and a nice, discrete dispel magic before hand means that a criminal will not be able to lie on the stand... neither will the person wearing the goggles, as it can easily be passed to any other. Besides, the only reason the goggles are used is to determine if the convict was affected by the ZoT. Once it's clear that the convict is affected by the ZoT, courts never need worry about reaching a wrong verdict again. Bonus points: goggles curse whoever wears them with horrid charisma while worn, making any attempts at lies (just in case they're biased for some reason) unconvincing.
Zone of Truth: Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
So it is possible to lie. Detect magic will not detect if the creature is affected by zone of truth or not, only if the spell is active or not. The spell isn’t targeted on anyone.
Discern Lies: Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance no
Each round, you concentrate on one target, who must be within range. You know if the target deliberately and knowingly speaks a lie by discerning disturbances in its aura caused by lying. The spell does not reveal the truth, uncover unintentional inaccuracies, or necessarily reveal evasions.Again, even discern lie can be fooled. And read the italicized part of the text.
Okay, those make sense! Nonetheless, it's easy enough to tell if the Zone of Truth worked, if the discern lies does - require them to say something false. If they succeed, it failed, try again. If they refuse, presume guilt. The big trick is that they must make two saves - one for discern lies and one for zone of truth. Drop in a detect thoughts on the whole thing and you've got yourself a pretty powerful recipe for being able to know what's going on with a person. I'll admit, however, none of this is foolproof. It's just a lot more difficult (three saves, multiple successful bluffs, and more than one dispel magic, just in case) - heck, make trials a minimum of three days, thus making three exposures to all three effects. Again, not fool-proof, but powerful.
* Hypnotism. Maximized. Empowered. Now, everything under 9HD (and up to 10^^^) is yours, forever. Glory, and revel in said glory. Bonus: actually cheaper than the philters of love, listed above. Also, you might need a charm monster first, so those philters combined with this would be overwhelmingly powerful. Bonus points for also using diplomacy to actually shift the attitude over time, though that's not really RAW, that's role-play.
Hypnotism: Duration 2d4 rounds (D)
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
Your gestures and droning incantation fascinate nearby creatures, causing them to stop and stare blankly at you. In addition, you can use their rapt attention to make your suggestions and requests seem more plausible. Roll 2d4 to see how many total HD of creatures you affect. Creatures with fewer HD are affected before creatures with more HD. Only creatures that can see or hear you are affected, but they do not need to understand you to be fascinated.
If you use this spell in combat, each target gains a +2 bonus on its saving throw. If the spell affects only a single creature not in combat at the time, the saving throw has a penalty of –2.
While the subject is fascinated by this spell, it reacts as though it were two steps more friendly in attitude. This allows you to make a single request of the affected creature (provided you can communicate with it). The request must be brief and reasonable. Even after the spell ends, the creature retains its new attitude toward you, but only with respect to that particular request.
A creature that fails its saving throw does not remember that you enspelled it.“Yours forever” is being 2 step more friendly for 1 “brief and reasonable” specific request? - Ok you have amended it in the successive post. Yes, with a lot of work you will make one guy friendly. If he don't make a ST at the start of the attempt or during one of the following use of hypnotize.
And what part of this indicated that this would be easy? I'm simply talking about the power to revolutionize the world. Slipping a powerful person a philter of love is a great way of getting them to listen long enough to have a private "conversation". That's when you hit them. And by "powerful" I don't necessarily mean "terribly high level", just "important". And important is a very subjective term. Any by "friendly", it's not just that - it's all the way to "helpful". Helpful mayors and barons and dukes and kings and priests (and/or female equivalents) or even bartenders, stable keepers, maids, and the like. Seriously, this is powerful. When one person has a large number of others guaranteed to be helpful when responding to certain key words? That's... powerful. Powerful enough to change the world. Again, the orbital platform the OP suggested isn't entirely clear on it's full uses at first, but it's still an amazing and world-changing accomplishment. There's all sorts of ways to make this more effective (have a cursed drink that lowers saves temporarily, heck getting the guy/gal drunk first, whatever) but the power to do so at all is rather impressive and potentially world-changing.
Slight addendum: lenses/eyes/whatever of charm person, update them to eyes of charm monster, then drop the maximized/empowered hypnotism on them as well, and there go any indications of you using magic against the person. Increase the saves with heighten for good, fun times.
... permanent effect... A bit excessive to use a level 8 spell to produce draft horses or cows.
Sure, but you're not only making draft horses or cows - your eliminating pests. It's a two-for-one free-for-all! ... by which I really just mean it's two-for-one. Also, it's not just that, but the myriads of implications that this can have. Need eggs? Poof, Chickens. Need more mounts or labor? Poof, Horses. Need more milk? Poof, Cows or Goats. Regardless, it's not just that you can create animals, it's the ultimate implications of the ability to alter animals to whatever you need. That's huge.
You are dismissing the RAW that say that the simulacron has only the special abilities appropriate to its new HD.
Any GM can chose what is appropriate, but by RAW they can remove all and any special ability if they want to.
Trying to game the system can seem cute, but is the best way to find playing unsatisfactory.
And you're dismissing RAW that there is no such thing as a lesser form of ifreet. It doesn't exists. Lowering it's HD doesn't make the spell-like go away, somehow. I'm not arguing that it's the most satisfactory way of playing, or even the most fun idea. I'm arguing that it's possible. If that same ifreet took five negative levels, it wouldn't somehow lose it's spell-likes. Permanent level loss doesn't exist any more (only "permanent" negative levels) but even in the older versions, if said ifreet somehow had permanent level loss, it didn't lose it's spell-likes. I'm dropping this line of conversation, because unless there's a clear rules citation that says it loses spell-likes that aren't currently tied to its hit dice by losing hit dice, then it's all GM fiat, which is not the point of the thread. :)
Also: heh, yes, the railgun would never be allowed. That's kind of my point. :)
Edited a couple times for clarity and consistency. ALSO, I'm probably dropping this line of inquiry - these things work, they're just out there for people to know about, and further discussion unless it's a clear RAW citation that it fails in some way, 'cause otherwise we're just going in circles of "I think the JEDI are evil!" and that never helps anyone. :D
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* Undead-as-evil worries? Not if you're an Oracle with the Juju mystery (found in Serpent's Skull AP)! Feel free to create entirely non-evil undead! Warning: Pharasma might still dislike you. As in, she will.
Work only for mindless undead.
Actually it's different.
Mindless undead made through Spirit Vessels are neutral. Intelligent undead share the alignment of the caster. And the spell to create undead, if done through Spirit Vessels, doesn't have the [Evil] descriptor.
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Simulacrio
So, no, they're not real creatures. They look like real creatures, but they're illusions formed of ice and snow that appear like the real creatures. It says nothing else about their dietary needs, habits, or the like. Worst comes to worst, however, it's a much faster means of reproduction, with creatures who are loyal to death to you. That's ridiculously powerful, no matter what. Having thousands of first level commoners is still pretty powerful. I gave one example - that of using first level commoners - but really simulcrum could be used for anything. Learn as much as you can about Tar Baphon: okay, a nice fifteenth level (or so, I'm guessing Tar's about thirty) lich is now yours. Or maybe a hundred of them. Razmir annoying you? Why not replace him? With him! Seriously, it's now about the most powerful thing you can do.
A) Sure you can copy anything.
B) I shared your opinion but the Paizo developers have explained in not uncertain terms that a simulacron is a copy of a living creature, sharing his creature type with all the effect of being a member of that creature type, included eating, sleeping, ageing and so forth.
You can search the forum of my posting history for the original replies.
A interesting "secondary" effect of that is that a simulacron keep his original alignment and mindeset. So while you can make a copy of Tar Baphon and get a a level 15 wizard lich that will obey all your direct orders, he will still be evil. bent on personal world domination and resentful of being forced to obey your orders.
As he will probably be much more intelligent than your spellcaster you had better giving him very precise order and keeping a keen eye on him or he would find a way to pervert them so that he will be the guy in command and you the puppet.
You could try generic commands like "never do me harm" but I shudder at the thought of how a guy with intelligence 30+ could twist that command. After all one of the best way to secure you from harm is to use Imprisonement on you.
A) Sure you can copy anything.
B) I shared your opinion but the Paizo developers have explained in not uncertain terms that a simulacron is a copy of a living creature, sharing his creature type with all the effect of being a member of that creature type, included eating, sleeping, ageing and so forth.
You can search the forum of my posting history for the original replies.
Ooh! Errata! That's pretty cool. I'd be interesting in seeing this, though I understand it's not always easy to locate.
A interesting "secondary" effect ...
Actually, that's one thing that I'm intensely interested in. Basically what I'd do first is get them to make a helm of opposite alignment, and use it on themselves, commanding them to automatically let it affect them. Alternatively, get an "ITEM OF ATONEMENT" in which I can simply use Atonement on them, telling them to convert. Since it's not a compulsion, but an inherent part of them, it doesn't violate atonement's rules. BUT! That's just me.
ALSO: THANKS Mikaze! That's really cool! I should dig out my APs from their current hiding spot since we're rearranging the house...
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Atonement
This spell removes the burden of misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you. However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 2,500 gp in rare incense and offerings). Atonement may be cast for one of several purposes, depending on the version selected.
Reverse Magical Alignment Change: If a creature has had its alignment magically changed, atonement returns its alignment to its original status at no additional cost.
Restore Class: A paladin, or other class, who has lost her class features due to violating the alignment restrictions of her class may have her class features restored by this spell.
Restore Cleric or Druid Spell Powers: A cleric or druid who has lost the ability to cast spells by incurring the anger of her deity may regain that ability by seeking atonement from another cleric of the same deity or another druid. If the transgression was intentional, the casting cleric must expend 2,500 gp in rare incense and offerings for her god's intercession.
Redemption or Temptation: You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or acquiesces to your offer and changes to your alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment. This use of the spell does not work on outsiders or any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally.
I would judge it will not work thanks to the bolded part. GM call.
There are numerous examples of skeletons whose makers and controllers have been dead for many, many years, and they just stand in their niches until someone comes close enough, then they follow their last orders and attack. You almost never see "roaming", hungry skeletons in the game. I see no evidence that they go off on their own initiative and do stuff when uncontrolled, nor any evidence that they mill around in confusion. You see roaming, hungry zombies and ghouls, but not really skeletons.
-Kle.
So basically the skeletons waited around until something showed up and they tried to kill them. Is that 'following previous orders' or just acting according to their nature? Skeletons may well be more sedentary than zombies, but might still murder whatever crosses their path. That makes them ideal for their 'ecological niche', which historically has been acting as tomb traps. Lazy skellies. :D
It is hard to beat Simulacrum for sheer effect. Personally, I like the idea of creating Simulacrums of myself and setting my devoted minions to creating magic items.
I am amused by the idea of using Maximized Awaken on Gorillas. As a Arcane Savant, I get Awaken through Esoteric Magic. Using Maximize means I can get gorillas with 20 Intelligence. Why recruit human apprentices when you can create your own apprentices with stats of Str 15, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 12, and Cha 10?
I threw together a list of magic items for communities, although I have not yet priced them out.
Here are the highlights:
Altar of Amanuensis
The Altar of Amanuensis copies writing from one source (such as a book) to be copied into a book, paper, or parchment. This altar copies 250 words per minute and creates a perfect duplicate of the original. The altar only copies nonmagical text, not illustrations or magical writings (such as spell scrolls or a sepia snake sigil). If the target contains normal and magical writing (such as a letter with explosive runes), only the normal text is copied, leaving blank space in the copied text where the magical writing would be expected. Likewise, if the target contains text and illustration, only the text is copied. Blank paper, parchment, or a book must be provided for the spell to write upon.
Altar of Mending
The Altar of Mending repairs damaged objects, restoring 1d4 hit points to the object. If the object has the broken condition, this condition is removed if the object is restored to at least half its original hit points. All of the pieces of an object must be present for this spell to function.
Altar of Endure Elements
The Altar of Endure Elements enables the petitioner to exist comfortably in conditions between -50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit (-45 and 60 degrees Celsius) for 24hrs.
Altar of Hauling
The Altar of Hauling causes a petitioners carrying capacity to triple for 2 hours.
Altar of Soothing
The Altar of Soothing causes several conditions to be lessened in severity one step. If the petitioner is nauseated, he is instead sickened. If he is stunned, he is instead dazed. If he is exhausted, he is fatigued. If he is frightened, he is shaken. If he is paralyzed, he is staggered. The duration of the effect is unchanged; the effect is simply reduced to the lesser version.
Altar of Truth
The Altar of Truth causes creatures within the emanation area (or those who enter it) to be unable to speak any deliberate and intentional lies. Each potentially affected creature is allowed a save to avoid the effects when the spell is cast or when the creature first enters the emanation area. Affected creatures are aware of this enchantment. Therefore, they may avoid answering questions to which they would normally respond with a lie, or they may be evasive as long as they remain within the boundaries of the truth.
Altar of Remove Disease
The Altar of Remove Disease can cure all diseases from which the subject is suffering. The petitioner must make a check of 1d20+5 against the DC of each disease affecting them. Success means that the disease is cured.
Altar of Remove Disease, Limited
Once per day, the Limited Altar of Remove Disease can cure all diseases from which the subject is suffering. The petitioner must make a check of 1d20+5 against the DC of each disease affecting them. Success means that the disease is cured.
Altar of Food
The Altar of Food grants each petitioner enough food to sustain three humans for 24 hours. The food that the altar creates is simple fare–highly nourishing, if rather bland. Food so created decays and becomes inedible after 24 hours
Altar of Healing
The Altar of Healing channels positive energy into a creature to wipe away injury and afflictions. It immediately ends any and all of the following adverse conditions affecting the Target: ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, and poisoned. It also cures 110 hit points of damage. The Altar of Healing does not remove negative levels, restore permanently drained levels, or restore permanently drained ability score points.
Altar of Healing, Limited
Once per day, the Limited Altar of Healing channels positive energy into a creature to wipe away injury and afflictions. It immediately ends any and all of the following adverse conditions affecting the Target: ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, and poisoned. It also cures 110 hit points of damage. The Altar of Healing does not remove negative levels, restore permanently drained levels, or restore permanently drained ability score points.
Aspergillum of Plant Growth
The Aspergillum of Plant Growth effect targets plants within a range of a half-mile, raising their potential productivity over the course of the next year to one-third above normal.
Fabrication Machine
The Fabrication Machine converts material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the Fabrication Machine. The quality of items made by the Fabrication Machine is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet. The Fabrication Machine cannot fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship. The Fabrication Machine requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected.
Fountain of Holy Water
The Fountain of Holy Water imbues a flask (1 pint) of water with positive energy, turning it into holy water.
Hitching Post of Mounts
The Hitching Post of Mounts summon a light horse to serve as a mount for 2 hours. The steed serves willingly and well. The mount comes with a bit and bridle and a riding saddle.