There are three topics that are particularly upsetting about the called shots system.One of them I think is unintentional.The other two are clearly intentional but I think that at the one's consequences aren't.
1)The limb severing effects of called shots has a fortitude save meaning that undead and constructs are immune to it.
I think this needs a little clarification as I can't see why a skeleton can't be disarmed (literally).
2)Why does a called shot needs deal at least 50 points of damage to have severe effects on somebody?Isn't half the character's hp enough and logical for a threshold?That actually means that no man under 50 hp can have his limbs severed (no commoner for example).And there is no option to ignore this part of the rule.Please at least make some clarification on it,it really ruins so many good stories that could be told with that.
3)The third is about the touch attacks that become normal attacks when used as called shots.I understand the balance issue that many see with this but the magic bonuses were the same and got an option of ignoring the part of the rule that made them nontheatrical if you could add a part that lets you ignore that part of the rule like the magical effects have it would be great.
Well, regarding the 50 damage issue.
Your comment about "is half hitpoints enough/logical" shows where you are coming at this from the wrong direction.
Hitpoints aren't supposed to represent the total amount of "meat" a person has towards keeping alive. It's just combat skill at "preventing death/severe (not sever) damage/unconsciousness/etc.
50 damage in a single attack is a good representation of severing because it's a pretty big attack to defend against. Picking a number means the attack is the same against everyone.
Someone's ability to shrug off a large hit doesn't minimize how devastating that hit was, it just means he's better at defending and surviving that hit.
A commoner getting hit with 50 hitpoints of damage probably does sever something. He's just dead anyways. If it were important (for some mechanical reason and not just roleplaying) to have something severed with that attack, even though it killed the guy, I'd let you roll to see if it was severed.
Most of the time, if the guy is dead.. what does it matter if something was cut off? He's out of the fight, unconscious from the pain, and bleeding to death.
Someone with 100 hitpoints could take that same hit and not go unconscious from the pain, or bleed out from the attack. Called Shots give severity (no pun intended) to a damage roll that is being shrugged off "too easily".
Lasty, you can note that 50 damage is the hard point where threat for "death from massive damage" happens too. I'm suspecting that was ultimately the point for picking that number for this combat option.
The Commoner would have his hand taken off...and it would kill him in the process.
Your point regarding constructs and undead is totally valid, and a smidge of extra text amounting to "while they don't suffer any of the other penalties, undead and constructs can have limbs severed."
But yeah, I always run on the "15 point" rule. An attack that does 15 points of damage sends a common man to his grave instantly. Dead on impact, not on arrival. No medical treatment or magic lower than Last Breath can save him.
I agree that 50 does seem a little high, but its also an easy and convienient number to remember. 25 would be a little low past level 5, but 30,35, 40, all feel like odd numbers to use. I think Kaisoku does an excellent job describing the "behind the scenes" of that mechanical choice.
And as Revan says, a commoner loosing his hand likely will kill him, as it could most of us internet warriors. A severed hand bleeds like crazy, and it takes quite a bit of mental fortitude to bandage oneself enough to survive traveling to the hospital, assuming the shock itself doesn't knock the man unconcious to begin with.
Humans are incredibly resilient, but at the same time incredibly fragile.
While a person can withstand being stabbed 20 times (depending on where they are hit), the reaction to the damage can be what knocks someone out (at which point they can't react and stop themselves from dying).
I imagine the reaction to shock is a lion's share of how hit points matter between characters.
As for the hp to inflict limb-severing injury they are the same for a dragon and a commoner.Obviously some have to take more damage from others in order to lose limbs (or at least they should) (or less in the case of a halfling or even more in the case of a colossal adamandine golem) I thought that half hp was a really good start.
In addition we have countless examples of commoners in both fantasy and human history that lose a hand or arm without it resulting automatically to their deaths.With this you can have no handicapped beggars that are unable to outlast a lion at damage absorption,and the guys that execute the limb severing penalties in medieval societies must be supermen.
I say all these could be avoided with a simple line that states the opposite as an option.
Has any designer seen this post and more importantly will some thing be done for any of the three points?
On a sidenote is there a reason that there minimum damage for the severe called shot effects?Is there some delicate balance that I am unaware of that would be disturbed if the minimum was just half the creature's hp in one strike?
With this you can have no handicapped beggars that are unable to outlast a lion at damage absorption,
Correct.
the guys that execute the limb severing penalties in medieval societies must be supermen.
Coup de Grace (can it be combined with called shot) with as scythe makes limb penalties easy.
As for the hp to inflict limb-severing injury they are the same for a dragon and a commoner.Obviously some have to take more damage from others in order to lose limbs (or at least they should) (or less in the case of a halfling or even more in the case of a colossal adamandine golem) I thought that half hp was a really good start.
In addition we have countless examples of commoners in both fantasy and human history that lose a hand or arm without it resulting automatically to their deaths.With this you can have no handicapped beggars that are unable to outlast a lion at damage absorption,and the guys that execute the limb severing penalties in medieval societies must be supermen.
I say all these could be avoided with a simple line that states the opposite as an option.
The handicapped beggar who can outlast a lion at *anything* is not a commoner, he is a Hero. In Pathfinder terms, no one in the whole world has a Commoner level of more than 6, and even that's incredibly rare. Commoner levels represent someone thoroughly unremarkable and pretty helpless against the big scary things out there.
Getting a hand cut off as a punishment for a crime is simply a different beast than having your hand cut off by a rampaging monster, or chomped, or blown off by a Gunslinger. Those 'executing' your limb are generally trying not to kill you outright, since it's limb loss, not death you've been sentenced too. The victim will likely be restrained and helpless, so a proper, clean cut can be lined up, and it can be cauterized with immediate rapidity. Whereas if it happens in combat, the blow generally comes from something trying to murderize you, the cut is likely to be far less clean, there's nothing to help you with the shock or quickly staunch the bleeding.
Or to be more blunt: losing a limb as punishment or in backstory isn't a called shot. It's a plot effect.
Yes I think that solves the problem.Give the dudes scythes...
Are you kidding me?
Besides the coup de grace action would require the people about to take the penalty to succeed at a DC60 fort save (in the least) or die at that moment.
So no supermen executioners but ultramen prisoners.
If it's an optional rule meant to add realism logic should be made an option .
It only takes three sentences one line each to correct everything gone terribly wrong in the called shot system. Its a shame for a such a good idea to become useless for three miserable lines.I would write them myself but I can't, please do something.
As for the hp to inflict limb-severing injury they are the same for a dragon and a commoner.Obviously some have to take more damage from others in order to lose limbs (or at least they should) (or less in the case of a halfling or even more in the case of a colossal adamandine golem) I thought that half hp was a really good start.
In addition we have countless examples of commoners in both fantasy and human history that lose a hand or arm without it resulting automatically to their deaths.With this you can have no handicapped beggars that are unable to outlast a lion at damage absorption,and the guys that execute the limb severing penalties in medieval societies must be supermen.
I say all these could be avoided with a simple line that states the opposite as an option.
The handicapped beggar who can outlast a lion at *anything* is not a commoner, he is a Hero. In Pathfinder terms, no one in the whole world has a Commoner level of more than 6, and even that's incredibly rare. Commoner levels represent someone thoroughly unremarkable and pretty helpless against the big scary things out there.
Getting a hand cut off as a punishment for a crime is simply a different beast than having your hand cut off by a rampaging monster, or chomped, or blown off by a Gunslinger. Those 'executing' your limb are generally trying not to kill you outright, since it's limb loss, not death you've been sentenced too. The victim will likely be restrained and helpless, so a proper, clean cut can be lined up, and it can be cauterized with immediate rapidity. Whereas if it happens in combat, the blow generally comes from something trying to murderize you, the cut is likely to be far less clean, there's nothing to help you with the shock or quickly staunch the bleeding.
Or to be more blunt: losing a limb as punishment or in backstory isn't a called shot. It's a plot effect.
You don't seem to understand the sarcasm I used for the beggar that has to withstand a cut hand from the avaricious noble that cuts his hand on a whim with his sword in the middle of the street while his guards watch out for him.
So here it was,sarcasm.That beggar assuming that system would need to be tougher than a gorilla to not die at that exact moment not a minute later not from system shock but by pure damage as the average damage done by lighting is 45!
On the other hand (pardon the pun)the noble would have to deal half the man's hp in a single blow.That's universes more reasonable than to have to blow the man up to cut his frickin hand of.
Also...
People, beware of "plot effects" they will cut your hands on a whim without any rules involved,they will murder you without care of your hp total and rape your children without reference to the grapple rules.Nobody is safe from... "The plOT effECTSsssss".
That last one must be a joke.
The point being Raven that combat called shots remove limbs by accident as part of trying to cripple a limb.
IE Damn that T-rex is fast shoot his legs. Called shot crit 1/2 hp in damage. DAMN you blew its leg off.
Punishment is more like its been described super sharp weapon brought down on the joint and then healing applied. Severing a limb on purpose at this time has no rules severing one cause you did massive damage does.
The point being Raven that combat called shots remove limbs by accident as part of trying to cripple a limb.
IE Damn that T-rex is fast shoot his legs. Called shot crit 1/2 hp in damage. DAMN you blew its leg off.
Punishment is more like its been described super sharp weapon brought down on the joint and then healing applied. Severing a limb on purpose at this time has no rules severing one cause you did massive damage does.
I see your point Talonhawke but the only official rules we have that allow body mutilation are the called shots otherwise no limbs can be severed.
Why should I be able to cut the hand of an opponent only by accident when approximately the same rolls would logically occur to do it purposefully?Why do I have to create houserules or become unreasonable and use something like "THE VICIOUS PlOT EFFECTSss" in order to have something so simple as the effects of cut members to occur in a vicious fantasy setting while there are perfectly official alternate rules that have effects for exactly the same thing?
All it takes is three miserable lines.
A 50 damage point attack is the same amount of "devastating" effect across all points of reference.
The difference comes into play with the individual receiving that blow.
A commoner getting hit with it will kill him. Maybe it cut something off, and that's why he died, but whatever the case, he's dead. Usually it doesn't matter how you flavour the death, so there's no real point in the rules for it.
A dragon getting hit with it may or may not have a problem with that attack. He has higher hitpoints. This is his ability to withstand a devastating attack (the shock to his system isn't as bad). He even has a better ability at withstanding having something severed or being outright killed (Fortitude save is much higher than commoners).
The attack is the same, the way the dragon can respond to it is different. That's why we have hitpoints and fort saves.
It would be an incredibly rare situation where a low level person would have a limb severed in combat and survive. It usually takes very quick application of some form of staunching/healing to prevent bleeding out from a wound like that (let alone death from the shock alone).
A beggar missing an appendage on the street more likely lost it due to disease (completely different concept) or as punishment (not a combat situation, the intent is to keep the person alive with this torment).
Called shots are for combat situations where you want to add something extra to the massive damage hit.
I think your other questions (undead and balance of touch attack) bear a lot more reason for concern than this aspect.
I wouldn't be against the idea of Called Shots expanding even further to allow someone who's "really really" good at cutting things off people (or hampering them harder than normal), to apply the effect even sooner than 50 damage in a single hit.
This is the realm of class features and maybe feat trees. Feel kind of like it's stepping into the Critical feats territory. They already provide the option for permanent (I believe) blindness or deafness, etc. Expanding on that would be interesting.
one of the optional feats reduces it to 40.
Has any designer seen this post and more importantly will some thing be done for any of the three points?
I think they have it taped to the whiteboard in their meeting room.
Seriously though, it takes time and luck (mostly luck) for the developers to reevaluate their stance on certain subjects.
A Man In Black introduced me to my favorite Called Shot system. Here's a link to the conversation we had on the Called Shots thread:
In short, -CON no longer represents death, but the creature inflicting the damage can choose any conditions they want, up to and including death.
If you want to take a prisoner, choose to inflict stable (not bleeding) and unconscious; they're at -(CON-1) and beaten to hell, but they'll live to answer questions later.
If you want to disfigure the enemy monk, choose stable, unconscious, and to lop off both his arms; no more flurry of blows for that guy.
If you want to kill the enemy in a particular way; lop off the head, stab through the heart, ripped in half, lightning bolt leaves a cannonball sized hole in chest, etc... go for it.
The target would have died and been out of the fight anyway, so game balance is completely preserved. It makes it easier for the players to be cool and tell stories about what their characters did in combat. As a GM, I don't worry about killing characters or a TPK; captured characters and gloating evil overloads are much much more fun.
It's been a house rule in my game since I read about it, and it's always worked well.