There was recently a discussion on our yahoo group about a 5'-step ruleing. A player wanted to reload his weapon as a move action(his ammo allowed this), shot his weapon, and make a 5'-Step.
My understanding of the rules on 181, is that you can switch out a standard action for a move action, and then 5'-step, or make a standard action and 5'-step, not both. So the player could only 5'step and reload, or 5'-step and shoot.
There was recently a discussion on our yahoo group about a 5'-step ruleing. A player wanted to reload his weapon as a move action(his ammo allowed this), shot his weapon, and make a 5'-Step.
My understanding of the rules on 181, is that you can switch out a standard action for a move action, and then 5'-step, or make a standard action and 5'-step, not both. So the player could only 5'step and reload, or 5'-step and shoot.
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement.
The player didn't actually move out of the square, so he didn't perform any movement; he only used a move action. Therefore, he can 5-foot-step. You can't, say, move 15 feet, perform standard or move action, and then 5-foot-step.
There was recently a discussion on our yahoo group about a 5'-step ruleing. A player wanted to reload his weapon as a move action(his ammo allowed this), shot his weapon, and make a 5'-Step.
My understanding of the rules on 181, is that you can switch out a standard action for a move action, and then 5'-step, or make a standard action and 5'-step, not both. So the player could only 5'step and reload, or 5'-step and shoot.
The language is tricky, because actually moving is only one type of move action. What the 5 ft. Step Rule is saying is that you can't actually move, i.e. move to another square. But you can perform move actions (because again, some move actions don't actually move you to another square).
So, you're describing a standard action, a move action that does not entail moving to another square, and a 5 ft. Step.
That's legal.
EDIT: Joana has the right of it.
|
"You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement"
"If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."
So it is fine to take a standard action, a move action and a 5ft step - as long as you didn't actually move as part of the move equivalent aciton. It's a common crossbow firers tactic.
"If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."
Yes, but the entire paragraph on pg 181 that you are referring too is this.
" You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round ( commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5'-foot step either befor, during or after the action. "
The first sentence seems to mean that the reload would take place of shooting the weapon, and as long as you did not move during that reload action you could also make a 5'-foot step prior or after the event.
Does the order of things make any difference. In the example given the character wanted to 5' step (to avoid the AoO) then reload, then shoot.
I don't think it's a matter of sequence so much since it does mention that it can be done befor or after, it just seems an excessive amount of actions. If this is true, it seems to me that it puts ranged based characters at even more of an advantage then I previously interpreted.
|
" You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round ( commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5'-foot step either befor, during or after the action."
Ok, in a round you can take a standard action and a move action. What that first sentence is saying is you can swap a standard action for a move so you can take two move actions in a round if you so choose. Just because you take a move action before anything else (like loading a weapon) doesn't preclude you from later taking a standard action too. Its saying you CAN take a move action in place of a standard, not if you take a move action you don't get a standard.
Ok, in a round you can take a standard action and a move action. What that first sentence is saying is you can swap a standard action for a move so you can take two move actions in a round if you so choose. Just because you take a move action before anything else (like loading a weapon) doesn't preclude you from later taking a standard action too. Its saying you CAN take a move action in place of a standard, not if you take a move action you don't get a standard.
I would think that interpretation resonable, but it is a seperate concept and thus should have its own paragraph. Since they started with that sentence, it seems tied to it.
|
It's worth looking at the table on p183. In each round you can:
-do one move action
-do one standard action (or do another move action instead)
-do any number of free actions
Of the move actions, only one actually involves the character 'moving'. If your character doesn't actually move, then he gets a free 5 foot step.
So in one round, a character could:
Drop a torch from his off-hand (free), move next to an enemy 15 feet away (move), attack with a sword (standard), and shout obscenities (free)
OR
load a crossbow (move), open a door (another move), take a 5 foot step through the door (no action), shout obscenities (free)
The order doesn't matter, as long as you do a maximum of either one standard action and one move action, or two move actions (plus any number of free actions).
Does that help?
(I've omitted full-round actions for now...)
Pg 183 is a table for AoOs, I do not see this break down that you have listed. Also as you mentioned 5'-step is a no action, same as Delay, not free actions so not lumped in with the idea that they are included in this unlimited sub-group.
|
|
Pg 183 is a table for AoOs, I do not see this break down that you have listed.
But it lists out all of the action categories, so it's easy to see at a glance what type of action anything is.
Also as you mentioned 5'-step is a no action, same as Delay, not free actions so not lumped in with the idea that they are included in this unlimited sub-group.
Quite right, you only get one free 5 foot step per round (and only then if you do no movement).
|
|
I would think that interpretation resonable, but it is a seperate concept and thus should have its own paragraph. Since they started with that sentence, it seems tied to it.
Unfortunately, there are times where a rules "paragraph" is really a bunch of slightly related one-sentence rules without a topic sentence. They don't necessarily relate to a single concept very tightly, or the topic may be either missing or implied.
"If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."
Yes, but the entire paragraph on pg 181 that you are referring too is this.
" You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round ( commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5'-foot step either befor, during or after the action. "
The first sentence seems to mean that the reload would take place of shooting the weapon, and as long as you did not move during that reload action you could also make a 5'-foot step prior or after the event.
What that means is that instead of the standard action he took, he could have swapped out for a second move action. It's just reiterating the rule that at any time, you can replace a standard action with a move action.
So he could have done this: move action - 5 ft. step - standard action
or this: move action - 5 ft. step - move action
Let me ask the question from a slightly different direction. Is there ever a time where a 5' step counts as a move action?
No, no its not that I am confusing that a 5'-step is a move action(though I can see where other people would it is referred too as a move or movement through out the book), I did find the paragraph in an unexpected portion of the book though that states that my perception was wrong.
On page 187 under Deciding between an Attack or Full Attack
" After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remainng attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not alread taken a move action this round. If you've already taken a 5'-step, you can't use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action"
So by this I would say you are all correct, of corse this is assuming that because it is in the same paragraph it is linked to the same thought(which apparently does not apply to the rules in the entire book). I will adjust my gaming in the future, this changes a lot for me and makes some feats a bit more appealing then I thought them to be(improved fient comes to mind).
Let me ask the question from a slightly different direction. Is there ever a time where a 5' step counts as a move action?
Yes, when slowed or moving through difficult terrain, etc. There are a small number of situations where the 'free' 5' step is specifically disallowed, so any movement at all, even 5', is a move action.
I would think that interpretation resonable, but it is a seperate concept and thus should have its own paragraph. Since they started with that sentence, it seems tied to it.
Ok, in a round you can take a standard action and a move action. What that first sentence is saying is you can swap a standard action for a move so you can take two move actions in a round if you so choose. Just because you take a move action before anything else (like loading a weapon) doesn't preclude you from later taking a standard action too. Its saying you CAN take a move action in place of a standard, not if you take a move action you don't get a standard.
Page 181, under "Action Types", second paragraph:
"In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action."
These don't have to be in any particular order. The player used a move action to reload the crossbow, which still leaves a standard action for shooting it. Since no distance was moved during any other action, a 5' step is still allowed. Conversely, if the 5' step is taken first, then no other movement is possible (barring feats) for the rest of the round.
AJ
Let me ask the question from a slightly different direction. Is there ever a time where a 5' step counts as a move action?
No.
It would no longer be a 5-foot step, it would be a 5-foot move.
But this needs further explanation. You can have a move of only 5 feet which is a move action and can provoke an attack of opportunity if you leave a threatened square. This typically happens in difficult terrain becaise you can't take a 5-foot step in difficult terrain or darkness.
