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Rogues are underpowered, blah blah blah. But I've never played one, and I want to. So here's a hypothetical setup, and I'd like advice on what is or is not worth doing regarding feats, skills, etc. Please don't clutter the thread with "you should play a different character altogether" comments, because that's very unhelpful.
Please note that this would be a PFS character. So if you're about to ask what kinds of enemies I expect to face or who else is in the party, there's your answer.
So here's what I was thinking:
Rogue (Acrobat archetype)
Human
STR 16 (14+2)
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 13
WIS 10
CHA 10
HP: 10 (d8+CON+FCB)
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint
Traits: Birthmark, Fast-Talker
Trained skills (not counting ACP):
Acrobatics +7
Bluff +5
Climb +7
Escape Artist +7
Knowledge (local) +5
Perception +4
Sense Motive +4
Stealth +7
Swim +7
Saves:
Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +0 (+2 vs Ench/Comp)
Gear: For the first scenario, I'd go cheap and take wooden armor, a club, and a sling. After getting some gold, I'd upgrade to MW Chain Shirt and a MW Buckler (it's only minor cheese), and after the second scenario a MW weapon of some sort.
My BIGGEST question is this: how important/useful is Improved Feint? The idea is to get sneak attack as often as possible, but it costs me stat points and two feats (and therefore my race choice) and a trait. Is that worth it, or should I be doing something else? Other advice is welcome too, of course.
Thanks everyone! :)
My BIGGEST question is this: how important/useful is Improved Feint? The idea is to get sneak attack as often as possible, but it costs me stat points and two feats (and therefore my race choice) and a trait. Is that worth it, or should I be doing something else? Other advice is welcome too, of course.
That all depends on other members of the party. By having improved feint, you are self-sufficient. Not having it means relying on other characters to give you flanking opportunities.
It works well at low-levels (6th and below) because you only have one attack. At higher levels, you will still only get one sneak attack per round with the feat, while you could get two (or more) if you were flanking.
Ask yourself, do you trust other members of the party to help you get flanking. If your group fights as team, I would say other feats are better. If you often find yourself alone, or your group fights as a mob of individuals then you might find this feat very useful.
*stuff*
I still don't understand what people seem to have against rouges, after clerics they are my favorite class to play. My rouge in a carrion crown campaign does as much damage on his sneak attack as the heavy melee fighter does.
Any way based on your build it seems you are planning a close combat style of play using strength as your combat attribute. I have actually never tried to run a rouge that wasn't a dex based character so by default normally I use ranged or finesse weapons.
hmm..this build should work fine but I would suggest you also take dodge when possible, maybe in place of improved feint (again just my play style but I've never used feint) That AC bonus is typically useful when your rouge is playing in close with the baddies.
The way I typically do the sneak attack thing is to find flanking opportunities which normally come along more often (at least in games I've played in).
If playing a ranged style the archery tree (especially the feats from The APG and UC) have some major boosters for ranged rouges.
Or if you choose to go with non lethal the Sap Mastery Feat tree from UC actually multiplies the sneak attack die that you get.
ON skills Perception always, acrobatics always, Stealth always, disable device always, the the rest is up to what ever style you want probably athletic skills based on your current build.
hope at least some of that helps.
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My BIGGEST question is this: how important/useful is Improved Feint? The idea is to get sneak attack as often as possible, but it costs me stat points and two feats (and therefore my race choice) and a trait. Is that worth it, or should I be doing something else? Other advice is welcome too, of course.That all depends on other members of the party. By having improved feint, you are self-sufficient. Not having it means relying on other characters to give you flanking opportunities.
It works well at low-levels (6th and below) because you only have one attack. At higher levels, you will still only get one sneak attack per round with the feat, while you could get two (or more) if you were flanking.
Ask yourself, do you trust other members of the party to help you get flanking. If your group fights as team, I would say other feats are better. If you often find yourself alone, or your group fights as a mob of individuals then you might find this feat very useful.
Excellent point Tim, thank you. Unfortunately, I haven't seen enough rogues in local PFS to observe how well the "regulars" assist in flanks. One idea I thought of as an alternative to ImpFnt was to take advantage of the Acrobat's talents and tumble around to set up my OWN flanks even if Mr. Fighter wants to stand still. That would be somewhere between self-reliance and others-reliance, but would be tremendously easier on my stats. Thoughts?
I recently played a rogue in a friends game and came out with some decent insight up to 7th level or so. First, it seemed that fighting with two weapons was just not very good at all, even with a high dexterity and weapon finesse. I did use a rapier and a dagger, but the penalties hurt a bit too much I found. I would also strongly suggest finding one of your friends in the party and take Outflank if you can, this will help to land more hits and get more punching power when you do. As noted by Tim, if you find yourself alone on the battlefield most of the time, Improved Feint will be much better than Outflank, however, its usefulness will fall off after 8th level when you would get 2 attacks.
If you dont think you can find a flank buddy and going out on your own isnt your style, making your own flanks is a good tactic, there's feat or rogue talent that lets you move around your target with now AoO's but I forget what its called atm.
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Any way based on your build it seems you are planning a close combat style of play using strength as your combat attribute. I have actually never tried to run a rouge that wasn't a dex based character so by default normally I use ranged or finesse weapons.
I felt like an even split between STR and DEX would be nice, so I could have a little extra damage regardless of SnkAtt, plus better climb/swim bonuses and saving a feat by not taking WpnFnss.
hmm..this build should work fine but I would suggest you also take dodge when possible, maybe in place of improved feint (again just my play style but I've never used feint) That AC bonus is typically useful when your rouge is playing in close with the baddies.
Yeah, not taking Dodge makes me really uncomfortable (though there's some consolation in discovering that I can use a buckler in spite of nonproficiency). This is the "costs me some feats" I was talking about with ImpFnt.
If playing a ranged style the archery tree (especially the feats from The APG and UC) have some major boosters for ranged rouges.
I've never really been into archer-style characters. I like to hack and stab my enemies up close. :D
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Please note that this would be a PFS character. So if you're about to ask what kinds of enemies I expect to face or who else is in the party, there's your answer.
I don't think you are going to be happy with this character in PFS.
I would go TWF and rely on being able to flank with other members of your party before I'd spend two feats on combat expertise and improved feint. The bottom line is that you have an above average Strength for a rogue (I never go above 14), but your Bluff score won't be great because of your low Charisma.
I don't like either of your trait choices. Birthmark would be okay if you were a divine caster, but I don't think the save bonus is worth it. Fast-talker is even worse, Bluff is already a class skill. You would be better off with Extremely Fashionable, which provides a +1 bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate.
Using Acrobatics to flank is a far better option that Improved feint. I'd put your race bonus in Dexterity and leave Strength at 14.
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I recently played a rogue in a friends game and came out with some decent insight up to 7th level or so. First, it seemed that fighting with two weapons was just not very good at all, even with a high dexterity and weapon finesse. I did use a rapier and a dagger, but the penalties hurt a bit too much I found. I would also strongly suggest finding one of your friends in the party and take Outflank if you can, this will help to land more hits and get more punching power when you do. As noted by Tim, if you find yourself alone on the battlefield most of the time, Improved Feint will be much better than Outflank, however, its usefulness will fall off after 8th level when you would get 2 attacks.
Is Outflank a teamwork feat? I'm wanting to say those aren't allowed in PFS, but I can't think of where I saw that, so I might be imagining it.
If you dont think you can find a flank buddy and going out on your own isnt your style, making your own flanks is a good tactic, there's feat or rogue talent that lets you move around your target with now AoO's but I forget what its called atm.
An inherent function of the acrobatics skill (no feat/talent requried) is to tumble through threatened squares without provoking. You can only do it in light or no armor and you move half speed, but if your Acro check beats their CMD, you don't provoke. I'm planning on being good at this anyway, which is part of why I'm thinking ImpFnt might not be worth the work after all.
My BIGGEST question is this: how important/useful is Improved Feint? The idea is to get sneak attack as often as possible, but it costs me stat points and two feats (and therefore my race choice) and a trait. Is that worth it, or should I be doing something else? Other advice is welcome too, of course.
I've played a rogue(Spy archetype, now prestiged into Master Spy) for the past 2 years or so, from level 1 up to about 10 now. I grabbed improved feint very early on and boosted bluff crazy high.
I used feint an awful lot early on to get my sneak attacks, but as we got higher it has become less and less useful as the martial characters have learned to help me flank. Combat Expertise was a pure feat tax, since I don't believe I've ever used it.
My build is very different than yours though, so maybe you'll see more long term benefit from the CE/IF combo. I went with high charisma and int for being the face of the party, bluff being my main focus (Deceptive/Skill Focus bluff + archetype/prestige bonuses = +29 bluff right now baseline).
I like having Improved Feint in my back pocket in case I get left alone though, since my non-sneak attack damage is pitiful at best.
Excellent point Tim, thank you. Unfortunately, I haven't seen enough rogues in local PFS to observe how well the "regulars" assist in flanks. One idea I thought of as an alternative to ImpFnt was to take advantage of the Acrobat's talents and tumble around to set up my OWN flanks even if Mr. Fighter wants to stand still. That would be somewhere between self-reliance and others-reliance, but would be tremendously easier on my stats. Thoughts?
I should have talked more directly about PFS. My best experience comes from Living Greyhawk, in which I played a fighter and my wife was a rogue. When we played together, I was always trying to think about where I could move to maximize he ability to get a flank. Why have the rogue tumble around if I can just five foot step. We had DMs comment many times about just how deadly the combination was and how they had never two players cooperate so closely. This became especially clear at high levels when she got multiple sneak attacks because she only needed to take a five foot step.
However, I (and the above mentioned DMs) seldom saw groups fight so cohesively. I'm sure we have all seen PFS games where a weaker character stepped in front of a much strong character, blocking the later's charge, because, well, it was his turn. PFS isn't conducive to good team building because every game you play could be with 'new' players.
Short of telling people how to run their characters (which I hate and almost never do) there is little you can do. If you have a trusted friend you usually play with it really helps. Eventually, other players will start to get the idea that helping out the rogue helps the party. That delaying is sometimes actually a better option than just attacking ad hoc because its your turn.
Being able to position yourself will really help. Maybe, just maybe, the BDFs of the group will start to think about how to help you flank. If you can make 'friendly suggestions' to the players about how to help you great, but don't tell them how to play; try saying "Wow! if Bob the fighter took a five-foot step to the left, I could shiv that guy" never "Bob needs to move there!" I've even made such suggestions by readying an action such as "When Bob moves into a flanking position with me I attack." (just make sure Bob is paying attention and moves before the enemy; this also helps sync up your turns) It actually helps both you and Bob as that way you both are guaranteed flanking bonuses.
What Improved Feint does is give you a sneak attack option when you are not flanking (and gives you a use for Bluff in combat). It ergo adds to the rogue's versatility. By adding on Greater Feint when it becomes available, it also gives you a teamwork edge, making your opponent easier to hit for all your friends for a round.
It's useful, but not necessary; IMO it's also fun (it's a bit more flavorful than "I stab it in the face"). The next rogue I'm building will probably be a feint build.
Is it worth the feats---well, what feats would you take if you didn't take Combat Expertise and Improved Feint? Do those feel worth it to you? Do you feel you can build the other ideas you have for your character's combat style with rogue talents and feats as the PC levels?
Also, are there other Combat Expertise-tree feats that you would take? Such as Improved Disarm or Improved Dirty Trick? Because it may also be worth it to start those trees early if you are. If NOT, on the other hand, again--what other feats would interest you?
Only other thought is your build looks like it might be good to go TWF at some point--you've got high dex to qualify for the feats but equally good strength to hit well and deal damage. And two sneak attacks for the price of one can always be useful. I am sure there are also some new feats to consider too (some of the flanking teamwork feats come to mind).
After getting some gold, I'd upgrade to MW Chain Shirt and a MW Buckler (it's only minor cheese), and after the second scenario a MW weapon of some sort.
Emphasis mine. Rogues are not proficient in shields. Are you planning to take shield proficiency or dip into another class?
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Please note that this would be a PFS character. So if you're about to ask what kinds of enemies I expect to face or who else is in the party, there's your answer.I don't think you are going to be happy with this character in PFS.
Hence the asking for advice! ;)
I would go TWF
I find it interesting that you vouch for it while riatin says it wasn't worth it.
Bluff score won't be great because of your low Charisma.
Hence the trait (see more below). Also, I did some looking, and at CR 2 and below, looks like the DC would only be 10-12, giving me better than 50/50 odds at a +5 bluff.
I don't like either of your trait choices. Birthmark would be okay if you were a divine caster, but I don't think the save bonus is worth it. Fast-talker is even worse, Bluff is already a class skill. You would be better off with Extremely Fashionable, which provides a +1 bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate.
Birthmark seems like as close as I can get to Iron Will as a trait (though admittedly it would be better with an Elven Immunities thing going on to cover enchantments), so it seemed worthwhile. You disagree?
I picked Fast-Talker for the +1 bluff to compensate for the 10 CHA - I was unaware of Extremely Fashionable and I actually don't know where you got that one from. Is it PFS legal?
Using Acrobatics to flank is a far better option that Improved feint.
I'm starting to agree.
I'd put your race bonus in Dexterity and leave Strength at 14.
But then I need a feat for Weapon Finesse, which negates part of the reason for not doing CE/IF.
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My build is very different than yours though, so maybe you'll see more long term benefit from the CE/IF combo. I went with high charisma and int for being the face of the party, bluff being my main focus (Deceptive/Skill Focus bluff + archetype/prestige bonuses = +29 bluff right now baseline).
This is much closer to the way my rogues have been designed in the past. I am tempted to start a new one to see how will it works with the new Ki pool option.
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Emphasis mine. Rogues are not proficient in shields. Are you planning to take shield proficiency or dip into another class?
After getting some gold, I'd upgrade to MW Chain Shirt and a MW Buckler (it's only minor cheese), and after the second scenario a MW weapon of some sort.
Heh, take a look here:
Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks.
So the nonproficiency penalty for armor/shields is to apply the ACP to attacks in addition to the usual.
Guess how much a masterwork buckler's ACP is. ;)
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Re: TWF
If you are using suitable weapons, you are at -2/-2 when TWF. Those two points will mean you miss a bit more, but you have two attempts. No one would say that a monk should never use Flurry of Blows. The problem with TWF is that it only works when you can take a full run action, which means a 5' step at most.
There is a new rogue archeype in UC which gives you d8 for sneak attack with knife like weapons (others fall to d4).
Improved Feint is a move action, so any time you could use it and attack, you would be in a position to make two attacks with TWF.
Re: Traits
Extremely Fashionable is from the Adventurer's Armory and is PFS legal. There is also a Taldor trait (Fashionable) which gives a bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks and makes one a class skill. I haven't looked through the new factions to see whether there is anything else attractive and I don't know what you intend faction wise.
Feats:
Rogues can take weapon finesse as a talent. Which means that it doesn't cost you a feat.
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Re: TWF
If you are using suitable weapons, you are at -2/-2 when TWF. Those two points will mean you miss a bit more, but you have two attempts. No one would say that a monk should never use Flurry of Blows. The problem with TWF is that it only works when you can take a full run action, which means a 5' step at most.
There is a new rogue archeype in UC which gives you d8 for sneak attack with knife like weapons (others fall to d4).
Improved Feint is a move action, so any time you could use it and attack, you would be in a position to make two attacks with TWF.
I need UC. :( I also hear there are feats to improve Combat Expertise which, even if I go a different direction with this rogue, my 4th-level fighter uses CE, so I'd be very interested in such feats. *sigh*
Re: Traits
Extremely Fashionable is from the Adventurer's Armory and is PFS legal. There is also a Taldor trait (Fashionable)
This made me lol so hard - I guess Taldans are only moderately fashionable! :D
which gives a bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks and makes one a class skill. I haven't looked through the new factions to see whether there is anything else attractive and I don't know what you intend faction wise.
Haven't picked a faction yet. I don't have enough of a feel for the character at this point.
Feats:
Rogues can take weapon finesse as a talent. Which means that it doesn't cost you a feat.
But that means it costs me a talent. ;)
Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks.So the nonproficiency penalty for armor/shields is to apply the ACP to attacks in addition to the usual.
Guess how much a masterwork buckler's ACP is. ;)
Huh, that is fascinating, I'd forgotten that was the only penalty to using armor non-proficiently. That means a spellcaster could wear a mithril chain shirt without penalty and a rather low chance of Arcane Spell Failure.
Somehow, I don't think that's what the game designers intended. Or maybe it was, I don't know.
But you're right, my mistake. There is no mechanical downside to using a masterwork buckler, even though you are nonproficient.
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Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks.So the nonproficiency penalty for armor/shields is to apply the ACP to attacks in addition to the usual.
Guess how much a masterwork buckler's ACP is. ;)
Huh, that is fascinating, I'd forgotten that was the only penalty to using armor non-proficiently. That means a spellcaster could wear a mithril chain shirt without penalty and a rather low chance of Arcane Spell Failure.
Somehow, I don't think that's what the game designers intended. Or maybe it was, I don't know.
But you're right, my mistake. There is no mechanical downside to using a masterwork buckler, even though you are nonproficient.
To be fair, there are still downsides (albeit conditional ones) for being nonproficient with shields: you've still got a penalty on heavy shields unless they're mithril/darkwood, you can't take feats like Improved Shield Bash that have proficiency as a prerequisite, bucklers give you a -1 to hit if you wield a weapon in that hand, etc. But yeah, if you just want the +1 AC, totally viable. :)
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Here's another way I could do the stats, if I skipped the feinting plan:
Human
STR 16
DEX 16 (14+2)
CON 14
INT 9 (human "skilled" feature makes up for the missing skill rank)
WIS 14
CHA 7
Feats: Dodge (probably) and something else
This gives me better saves, perception/sense motive, and HP; it costs me a couple skill ranks and any chance at bluffing, etc. It also opens up the feats, which would most likely be Dodge and something (maybe Iron Will?).
Here's another option:
Half-Elf
STR 16
DEX 16 (14+2)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 8
Feat: probably Dodge
This lets me take the alternate racial feature "dual minded" for +2 Will, which stacks with elven immunities, birthmark, and Iron Will (if I take it). Same skill ranks as the above human build, but with slightly higher will and perception but slightly lower sense motive. The main drawback of the half-elf version would be the lack of the extra feat, I guess.
Thoughts? Not planning on TWF or CE/IF at this point.
I like the high-str build for rogues, it helps to make up for the lower BAB progression. My rogue is half-orc, with a falchion and CE/IF, and Skill Focus Bluff. He has high Cha as he is the face of the party, but we used 30 point build and started at level 3, which is quite different.
I see some players spread their rogues too thinly. They want to be good in melee, and ranged, and sneak attack, and rogue skills, and face of the party, and then they take Minor and Major Magic. I think these end up being a Jack of all trades, but really weak at all of them. I recently helped the Bard in my local group rebuild her character because of this sort of problem, she is much happier with the character now, and we remained true to her vision.
Consider a two handed weapon to take advantage of your Str mod. And a longspear can give you more flanking options.
As alternates for Sneak Attack I'd look at Skill Focus Acrobatics, or maybe even head for Improved Overrun to get that flanking and an AoO as they stand up, though you may want more Str for this. And Fleet for the extra 5' of movement. Maybe even take Bbn as your first level for the extra movement, but find an archetype that swaps the liability of rage, if one exists. Still play and build him as a rogue though, with your skill point allocations. It just means he isn't as effective at first level. But, I think it may be worthwhile.
TWF is mathematically more likely to land at least one hit, but it always 'feels' worse.
It sounds like you want to be primarily in melee (or expect to be), so I'd consider dropping a bit more Dex for a bit more Str. At least have a look at it, then go back and be grateful for the Ref save and AC bonus. ;)
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I like the high-str build for rogues, it helps to make up for the lower BAB progression. My rogue is half-orc, with a falchion and CE/IF, and Skill Focus Bluff. He has high Cha as he is the face of the party, but we used 30 point build and started at level 3, which is quite different.
Indeed, I'm at 20-point-buy and have to play about 30 hours before I'm at level 3. Very different. :P
Consider a two handed weapon to take advantage of your Str mod.
I briefly considered a 2H weapon, but a couple of things stopped me:
• With less than 18 STR, it's only a single point of extra damage.• I have to ditch the buckler, which is uncomfortable for a light-armor-only melee character.
Maybe even take Bbn as your first level for the extra movement, but find an archetype that swaps the liability of rage, if one exists. Still play and build him as a rogue though, with your skill point allocations. It just means he isn't as effective at first level. But, I think it may be worthwhile.
I did consider a level of Barbarian, but again, I've got to play through those early levels, and that also means setting back my rogue features by a level (no talent/evasion until 3, etc). I don't think it's worth it.
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Re: TWF
If you are using suitable weapons, you are at -2/-2 when TWF. Those two points will mean you miss a bit more, but you have two attempts. No one would say that a monk should never use Flurry of Blows. The problem with TWF is that it only works when you can take a full run action, which means a 5' step at most.
There is a new rogue archeype in UC which gives you d8 for sneak attack with knife like weapons (others fall to d4).
Improved Feint is a move action, so any time you could use it and attack, you would be in a position to make two attacks with TWF.
Re: Traits
Extremely Fashionable is from the Adventurer's Armory and is PFS legal. There is also a Taldor trait (Fashionable) which gives a bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks and makes one a class skill. I haven't looked through the new factions to see whether there is anything else attractive and I don't know what you intend faction wise.
Feats:
Rogues can take weapon finesse as a talent. Which means that it doesn't cost you a feat.
Well first you can't take a full attack with a move action so improved feint prevents you from using TWF to get the rest of your attacks.
Second, Birthmark is a bad trait for what you are trying to do. It only gives you a +2 vs. charms and compulsions, the rest of the effects that target your will saves will get right through.
Better option is to take the Indomitable Faith trait, it's a flat +1 bonus on ALL will saves and stacks with iron will (which you won't need as soon as you get Slippery Mind)
Also the big advantage for the 2hd weapon rogues is the bonus damage from strength and power attack. Using two hands on your weapon gives it 1.5*strength bonus on damage (at 16 str it does +4 dam) and with power attack it does +3 damage per increment instead of +2.
It may not seem like a lot of extra damage but it can quickly become scary how hard you hit, plus it keeps you mobile unlike those twf'ers who can only take a single 5' step per round.
Also the big advantage for the 2hd weapon rogues is the bonus damage from strength and power attack. Using two hands on your weapon gives it 1.5*strength bonus on damage (at 16 str it does +4 dam) and with power attack it does +3 damage per increment instead of +2.
It may not seem like a lot of extra damage but it can quickly become scary how hard you hit, plus it keeps you mobile unlike those twf'ers who can only take a single 5' step per round.
I've noticed the above to be very true actually. Replace the use of the MWK buckler with Dodge and save the gold on it as well (not that it's a terrible lot). I'd invest a least a few points towards UMD as well as that can keep your options open to low-level wands and such that can make up for some other things.
But the two-handed weapon option does really make a difference. Especially if it's reach, then carry a backup dagger if you have to. But the strength boost and reach can make flanking much easier. Plus, it opens up other tricks later down the line too like stacking a Vital Strike on a sneak attack in a surprise round from reach distance. I've seen it happen once, and it was completely worth it.
I recently played a rogue in a friends game and came out with some decent insight up to 7th level or so. First, it seemed that fighting with two weapons was just not very good at all, even with a high dexterity and weapon finesse. I did use a rapier and a dagger, but the penalties hurt a bit too much I found. I would also strongly suggest finding one of your friends in the party and take Outflank if you can, this will help to land more hits and get more punching power when you do. As noted by Tim, if you find yourself alone on the battlefield most of the time, Improved Feint will be much better than Outflank, however, its usefulness will fall off after 8th level when you would get 2 attacks.Is Outflank a teamwork feat? I'm wanting to say those aren't allowed in PFS, but I can't think of where I saw that, so I might be imagining it.
If you dont think you can find a flank buddy and going out on your own isnt your style, making your own flanks is a good tactic, there's feat or rogue talent that lets you move around your target with now AoO's but I forget what its called atm.An inherent function of the acrobatics skill (no feat/talent requried) is to tumble through threatened squares without provoking. You can only do it in light or no armor and you move half speed, but if your Acro check beats their CMD, you don't provoke. I'm planning on being good at this anyway, which is part of why I'm thinking ImpFnt might not be worth the work after all.
Yeah, outflank is a teamwork feat, wasn't aware they are not PFS valid. The ability I was thinking of is this:
Positioning Attack (Ex): Once per day, when a rogue
with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack, she
can move up to 30 feet without provoking attacks of
opportunity. The movement must end in a space adjacent
to the creature hit with the melee attack.
Forgot about the once per day thing, and acrobatics is very good until it fails, and trying to go through somethings square can be difficult, this ability lets you do it as a move action once per day.
As for two weapon fighting, a sixth level rogue has a +4 BAB, same as a monk, but the monk's BAB when flurrying is +6, not +4 (and they have no off-hand damage wise). When using the two weapon fighting feats, a rogue's BAB is effectively +2/+2 (assuming a light offhand weapon). At 6th level. That's pretty abysmal, its worse than a Mage or Sorcerer's BAB of the same level (+3), yeah you get two attacks, but neither of them are very good. Assuming a +5 from dex (which is a substantial investment for 20 pt buy) and a +1 from magic or Mwk, that gets your bonus to +8/+8. Assuming a 19AC for a CR6 creature, that's a 55%/55%, flanking that is raised to 65%/65%. With a single attack its a 65% or 75% to hit while flanking. When both attacks hit with TWF you will do more damage, but chances of hitting twice are lower than with a single attack and the offhand will typically be weaker. Just my observations and suggestion from recent play, YMMV.
As for two weapon fighting, a sixth level rogue has a +4 BAB, same as a monk, but the monk's BAB when flurrying is +6, not +4 (and they have no off-hand damage wise). When using the two weapon fighting feats, a rogue's BAB is effectively +2/+2 (assuming a light offhand weapon). At 6th level. That's pretty abysmal, its worse than a Mage or Sorcerer's BAB of the same level (+3), yeah you get two attacks, but neither of them are very good. Assuming a +5 from dex (which is a substantial investment for 20 pt buy) and a +1 from magic or Mwk, that gets your bonus to +8/+8. Assuming a 19AC for a CR6 creature, that's a 55%/55%, flanking that is raised to 65%/65%. With a single attack its a 65% or 75% to hit while flanking. When both attacks hit with TWF you will do more damage, but chances of hitting twice are lower than with a single attack and the offhand will typically be weaker. Just my observations and suggestion from recent play, YMMV
However, we are talking about Sneak Attack damage for a rogue, so TWF actually increases the chance to hit at least once. Yes, the chance to hit twice is very low.
From the example given here, 55%/55% gives 79.75% chance to hit at least once, with a 30.35% chance of hitting twice.
Calculations:
To hit twice is .55 x .55 = .3035 = 30.35%
This is perhaps Mathematically worthwhile for the rogue with sneak attack, though, I've said before, TWF feels like you miss more often (probably because in 10 rounds of full attack you would make 11 hits, but 9 misses), and it limits your move options.
Trust me, I teach Math ;)
Trust me, I never claimed math to be my strong area :)
Maybe I just had bad dice or ticked off the dice gods, but TWF seemed like a miss fest the whole time so I stopped using it in later levels. I always appreciate the math lesson either way. YMMV.
You might look at some of the new weapons in ultimate combat. I believe some give you a chance to feint in place of your first attack. As a two weapon fighter you could feint then attack when not flanking or just double attack if you can set up flank and miss the feat tax on expertise.
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Well first you can't take a full attack with a move action so improved feint prevents you from using TWF to get the rest of your attacks.
You misread what I wrote. I was pointing out that in any situation where the rogue could use Improved Feint, it would also meet the requirements to make two attacks using TWF.
I recommend TWF and Double Slice, and getting Weapon Focus as your first talent. Weapon Focus really helps the hit penalty, and Double Slice allows you to take advantage of your high STR (without it you get only +1 damage on your offhand). You could aim for Whirlwind, Greater Cleave, or Shatter Defenses.
Your STR is high enough that Sneak Attack is almost pure bonus damage. If you dual wield short swords and have to face off against an enemy, you will be doing (3.5 + 3 + 3.5 + 1) x .55 = 6.05 dpr plus sneak attacks (3.5 x 2 x .55 = 3.85), which brings your total average up to 9.9. If you flank, have weapon focus, or double slice, this goes up.
If you had to feint, this would be (3.5 + 3) x .65 + 3.5 (sneak attack) = 7.725, and that's if you can guarantee the feint. I'm really glad you decided against the Feint line. It's great if someone else has Greater Feint, but it really sucks if you have to do it yourself.
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I ended up deciding last night that I'd actually forgo both feinting AND two weapon fighting, in favor of a fighter-esque build that has better AC than a "normal" rogue and is more nimble than a "normal" fighter. Of course, there's nothing stopping me from picking up TWF later on if I change my mind, but it's not in the plan. Here's the build:
Half-Elf Rogue (Swashbuckler)
STR 16
DEX 16
CON 15
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 8
I was willing to leave WIS at 10 because of a couple of things: one, I get a racial +2 to perception anyway. Two, I swapped out my racial Skill Focus feat for the APG's "Dual Minded" feature that gives a +2 to Will. Add that to my racial +2 versus Enchantments and the Skeptic trait's +2 versus Illusions and I've got a net +4 against 90% of the will saves I'll be making. And on top of that, my archetype starts granting bonuses versus fear starting at level 3.
My reflex is naturally great, and my fortitude is helped by my high CON (even higher once I hit 4th level) and the Resilient trait, which gives me a +1 to fort.
So I have a level 1 rogue with AC 17 at the first session and up to 19 after that, a +3 fort, +5 reflex, +2/4 will, 8 skill ranks, and 11 hit points.
So... kind of like a fighter, but with skills and sneak attack.
Next question for the forums: the Swashbuckler archetype gives me a free martial weapon proficiency. What should I pick? Just a plain old longsword?
Sorry for joining the party a little late, but one feat that's very useful for Rogues that's in the APG is Gang Up. Requires you to have expertise, but it means that any time 2 allies are threatening something, you get to hit it as if you're flanking. It's *very* worth it (and as a combat feat, you can even use a combat trick to learn it).
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Sorry for joining the party a little late, but one feat that's very useful for Rogues that's in the APG is Gang Up. Requires you to have expertise, but it means that any time 2 allies are threatening something, you get to hit it as if you're flanking. It's *very* worth it (and as a combat feat, you can even use a combat trick to learn it).
But that requires not only taking CE (which I already decided against), but also relying on having two melee guys besides me at the table, which is hard to guarantee in PFS. Also, those two have to be working on the same guy, which means that's probably not where I'm needed anyway.
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Next question for the forums: the Swashbuckler archetype gives me a free martial weapon proficiency. What should I pick? Just a plain old longsword?Elven curve blade.
Sorry, no can do. Has to be martial, not exotic. Thus, I'm having trouble thinking of anything better than a longsword. Unless there's something nifty in UC?
I also thought about a scimitar (despite it being similar to a rapier, which I can already use) just because I think they're super-cool. ;)
Sorry for joining the party a little late, but one feat that's very useful for Rogues that's in the APG is Gang Up. Requires you to have expertise, but it means that any time 2 allies are threatening something, you get to hit it as if you're flanking. It's *very* worth it (and as a combat feat, you can even use a combat trick to learn it).But that requires not only taking CE (which I already decided against), but also relying on having two melee guys besides me at the table, which is hard to guarantee in PFS. Also, those two have to be working on the same guy, which means that's probably not where I'm needed anyway.
As I said, late joining the discussion -- in an earlier revision, you were looking at taking CE (to get toward Feint), so it was an easy and worthwhile grab.
In terms of not having 2 people threaten, that's certainly far more of an issue -- I was pointing out that you didn't need to worry about whether or not someone would let you get into flanking position -- in fact, RAW, a mounted cavalier lets you flank - even if your opponent has a back to the wall.
Next question for the forums: the Swashbuckler archetype gives me a free martial weapon proficiency. What should I pick? Just a plain old longsword?Elven curve blade.Sorry, no can do. Has to be martial, not exotic. Thus, I'm having trouble thinking of anything better than a longsword. Unless there's something nifty in UC?
I also thought about a scimitar (despite it being similar to a rapier, which I can already use) just because I think they're super-cool. ;)
Any 2H weapon for the sake of versatility and making use of your STR.
Nodachi (UC) is martial and has the same stats as Elven Curve Blade.
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Next question for the forums: the Swashbuckler archetype gives me a free martial weapon proficiency. What should I pick? Just a plain old longsword?Elven curve blade.Sorry, no can do. Has to be martial, not exotic. Thus, I'm having trouble thinking of anything better than a longsword. Unless there's something nifty in UC?
I also thought about a scimitar (despite it being similar to a rapier, which I can already use) just because I think they're super-cool. ;)
You're an elf. Exotic weapons with Elf in the name count as martial weapons.
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You're an elf. Exotic weapons with Elf in the name count as martial weapons.
I'm a half-elf. No racial weapon familiarity.
Anyway, still not having UC, I went with longsword for my swashbuckler proficiency, and gave this build a go at PFS yesterday:
Half-Elf
STR 16
DEX 16
CON 15
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 7
Alternate racial trait: dual-minded (+2 will)
Traits: Elven reflexes (+2 init), Skeptic (+2 vs Illusions)
Feat: Improved Initiative (total init of +9)
AC: 16
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2 (+4 vs Ench/Illus)
Gear: Wooden armor, longsword, cestus, 5x javelin
After the session, upgraded to masterwork chain shirt and added a MW buckler, for an AC of 18.
Made me nervous to not take Dodge at lv1, but it worked out. I might still take it later.
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I'm a half-elf. No racial weapon familiarity.You can take the half-elf alternate racial trait "Ancestral Arms" from the APG (exchange Skill Focus at 1st for either a martial or exotic weapon prof). Which means....
Next question for the forums: the Swashbuckler archetype gives me a free martial weapon proficiency.
Composite longbow.
-- So you can have an elven curve sword and a longbow in a "straight" rogue!
Armor: unless you're doing a lot of acrobatics, I'd skip the chainshirt and wear a non-MW breastplate for awhile (then get a mithril one). +9 AC is better than +7 AC. You'll move a little slower until the mithril, but that hasn't really been a problem...much...in PFS mods at low level.
I'm guessing you're raising CON at 4th, then STR or DEX twice thereafter?
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I'm a half-elf. No racial weapon familiarity.You can take the half-elf alternate racial trait "Ancestral Arms" from the APG (exchange Skill Focus at 1st for either a martial or exotic weapon prof). Which means....Next question for the forums: the Swashbuckler archetype gives me a free martial weapon proficiency.Composite longbow.
-- So you can have an elven curve sword and a longbow in a "straight" rogue!
Armor: unless you're doing a lot of acrobatics, I'd skip the chainshirt and wear a non-MW breastplate for awhile (then get a mithril one). +9 AC is better than +7 AC. You'll move a little slower until the mithril, but that hasn't really been a problem...much...in PFS mods at low level.
I'm guessing you're raising CON at 4th, then STR or DEX twice thereafter?
A rogue needs medium armor proficiency to wear a breastplate, or they take a massive penalty. Of course, a single level of fighter will fix that, and three will let them move full speed in medium armor.
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Say it once, say it a million times, take parade armor. Its fluffly, its fun, and it rocks for rogues.
and it can be a great disguise.
Now i think you are killing your rogue with no skills, 10 int, brutal. Rogues should have skills up the arse. I just have a hard time picturing a rogue without skills.
combat yes, and i have played with the str and dex, works okay..
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Say it once, say it a million times, take parade armor. Its fluffly, its fun, and it rocks for rogues.
and it can be a great disguise.
What's parade armor? What's it in and is it PFS legal?
Now i think you are killing your rogue with no skills, 10 int, brutal.
Er, he's got 12 INT. Read, please.
Rogues should have skills up the arse. I just have a hard time picturing a rogue without skills.
combat yes, and i have played with the str and dex, works okay..
Thanks for informing me of what a rogue "should" be. I'll keep it in mind next time I'm standing in a doorway between the assassins and their targets, saving all of them instead of the half that were required for success in the mission.
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I'm a half-elf. No racial weapon familiarity.You can take the half-elf alternate racial trait "Ancestral Arms" from the APG (exchange Skill Focus at 1st for either a martial or exotic weapon prof). Which means....Next question for the forums: the Swashbuckler archetype gives me a free martial weapon proficiency.Composite longbow.
-- So you can have an elven curve sword and a longbow in a "straight" rogue!
Armor: unless you're doing a lot of acrobatics, I'd skip the chainshirt and wear a non-MW breastplate for awhile (then get a mithril one). +9 AC is better than +7 AC. You'll move a little slower until the mithril, but that hasn't really been a problem...much...in PFS mods at low level.
I'm guessing you're raising CON at 4th, then STR or DEX twice thereafter?
I seriously considered ancestral arms, but I wasn't happy about my abysmal will save, so I took dual-minded instead. Combine that with elven immunities and the Skeptic trait, and I have a pretty solid will save. Also, elven curve blade is 2H, which isn't the direction I'm going with this character.
Even so, I'm still rocking a longsword and could get a composite shortbow. However, I'm also using a cestus and some GMs might mistakenly rule that it'll give me a -2 on bow attacks, so I might just skip it. I'm not sure.
And yes, CON at 4th and whatever after that (if he even gets that far, given I have two other characters).
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Now i think you are killing your rogue with no skills, 10 int, brutal. Rogues should have skills up the arse. IWith favored class bonuses put into skills and points spent in Acrobatics, Disable Device, Stealth and Perception, an INT 10 Pathfinder rogue has as many points to spread around as an INT 20 D&D 3.5 rogue with no FC bonuses and having to deal with Balance, Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Disable Device, Spot and Listen.
<questions>
(And...there goes the rest of your day. Mwahahahahaha.)
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A rogue needs medium armor proficiency to wear a breastplate, or they take a massive penalty.
If Jiggy takes the Armor Expert trait (which I know he likes a lot), the penalty for mithral breastplate is zero.
Word on various armors: PFS full-class rogues blow your money on....
* mithral breastplate if you have MedArmProf or Armor Expert trait, and your DEX target is 20. (This is +3 better armor than studded leather or parade, but will set you back another 9000gp and require a trait.)
* mithral chainshirt if your DEX target is 22 and you want highest possible touch AC and value both concealing your armor under your clothes and sleeping in it (otherwise your total AC at DEX:22 is -1 versus mithral breastplate).
* * boneless leather if your DEX target is 24 or 26. -- This stuff is shockingly no-foolin' awesome, and cheap to upgrade since the listed enhancement bonus is +1. In fact, your rogue may want it even if it's not a maximum AC DEX-synergy match.
* quilted cloth if your 12th-level DEX will be 28, you cannot afford and/or are unwilling to wait for Celestial Chain, and are willing to skip the groovy benefits of boneless leather in exchange for maximum possible AC. Or because you really hate getting shot by arrows.
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NOTE #1: while the description of Parade Armor includes "light chain", it's clearly an ensemble package including other non-metallic showy bits -- so don't expect to get away with making a mithril version of it.
NOTE #2: Brigandine armor (at d20pfsrd) is by Mongoose Publishing, and not PFS legal.
NOTE #3: With all the recent updates and erratas, I'm unsure if Armored Kilts are legal once again in PFS. Regardless, their additional to a suit of light armor makes it medium...which will bother you if you're not a dwarf. They're not listed as being metal, so you can't make a mithral kilt.