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And by your logic, the only persons who can enter into pacts with supernatural entities are those with the charisma of Marilyn Monroe.
I knew there was something strange about her. SHE'S A WITCH!
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No matter what the rules say, some of you are going to bend over backwards in order to find some Deus ex Machina justification. And that's fine. I've never said that such justifications aren't possible. I've only said that to do them consistently breaks verisimilitude.
Now, we've got the arguement that a being might select a witch with low charisma to further the being's end. Of course that's true. I could, just as well, say that a being might select a witch with low intelligence to further the being's end. Some idiot corner case is always possible. But, what happens most often? Does a Witch with high charisma (who will have more followers - including followers with high intelligence) be more useful to such a being or will a witch with high intelligence (though not higher than the being's) be more useful?
Two things:
1. Stop it with the "Deus ex Machina" talk. We have different beliefs, and different perceptions. This does not make any of us necessarily wrong, nor does it make any of us requiring logical loopholes to hold our positions. Please do not continue to accuse people of being irrational indirectly through this claim.
2. You're still assuming too much about the patron. Does the patron even want followers? Are the patron's goals better served by lots of believers, or by cultivating one person capable of understanding certain concepts? By RAW, we don't know. I don't know, and neither do you.
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Two things:1. Stop it with the "Deus ex Machina" talk. We have different beliefs, and different perceptions. This does not make any of us necessarily wrong, nor does it make any of us requiring logical loopholes to hold our positions. Please do not continue to accuse people of being irrational indirectly through this claim.
2. You're still assuming too much about the patron. Does the patron even want followers? Are the patron's goals better served by lots of believers, or by cultivating one person capable of understanding certain concepts? By RAW, we don't know. I don't know, and neither do you.
Ninja'd. Thank you for saying what I was going to say.
Lillith's Thrall. You are making assumptions about the patron that simply don't hold up. Cthulu, some of the more alien portrals of the fae, aliens, gods or whatever may simply not care didly squat about Charisma. In fact, if a theoretical entity had say a 40 in all mental stats, it's questionable whether they would care about difference between a 10 and 18 when picking their partner.
Were you happier in 3.5 when it suggested, quite heavily at times, that all sorcerers were descended from dragons?
In the future I would ask that you read the entire thread before you reply to something. This issue has already been addressed in a previous post.
However, to answer your question: very much so. Because it was never explicit and the implications were so vague that sex need not even be a conclusion. But while I was happier with it, I was not happy with it. I don't like sorcerers being a class empowered by heritage because they don't get anything that actually represents that. Pathfinder basically just put band-aids on it that are totally workable, but the basic chassis of the class still doesn't do a good job representing this sort of thing. What they DO represent well is something more akin to spiral power: inner strength and force of will. In my opinion anyway :)
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People, you are arguing with LilithsThrall. Don't expect anything you say to be heard over the charismastorm.
What they DO represent well is something more akin to spiral power: inner strength and force of will. In my opinion anyway :)
/dons the kamina glasses.
Moving on, I'd like to point out that people assume that the ones with the high charisma are the ones who are nice and pleasant to be around, and thus the demons or patron deities or whatever would want to hang out with them.
But is that really necessarily the case?
Charisma modifiers increase the DC of Diplomacy checks to make you like a person more. They also increase the DC of Diplomacy checks to get you to help a guy out. The lower a character's Charisma is, the more likely they are to go out of their way to help you, and the more likely they are to like you.
In cruch terms, a +5 charisma character would have a 20 DC to befriend where a +0 Charisma would have a 15. In no uncertain terms, high charisma has a good chance of making you an elitist jerk. Certain high-charisma people on this site are also good examples of this, and heck. We all remember a certain bard from the beginning of Kingmaker book 2. We'd hardly call him nice or personable, or even someone you'd want to be around. Just a good politician. (And both fat and ugly, but we already know Charisma and looks have nothing to do with each other.)
Is it any wonder that the supernatural entities would want to deal with the Int-based witch? At least she won't try to shout you down. Lord knows if I was a deity, high-Cha characters like them oracles would start cramping my style with all their ability to talk back and stuff.
/dons the kamina glasses.
Winning
In cruch terms, a +5 charisma character would have a 20 DC to befriend where a +0 Charisma would have a 15. In no uncertain terms, high charisma has a good chance of making you an elitist jerk.
High Charisma but still stand-offish and kind of a prick? I know that guy you're talking about. Its Malcolm Reynolds right? No? Lelouch Lamperouge? Frank Trollman? ...Randall Patrick McMurphy?
All you really need is a bit of incentive to seal the deal for any unholy pact or bargain for your immortal soul.
Sorcerer: "Oh great Beezlebub I request you grant me some of your Infernal Power so that I may lay waste to my enemies!"
Beezebub: "What is in it for me puny mortal?"
Sorcerer: "I bring to you the uncorrupted soul of a Unicorn pony, a still beating angel heart, and a double quarter pounder meal from McDonalds"
Beezlebub: "With Cheese?"
Sorcerer: "Yes, and no onions just the way you like it, your vileness!"
Beezlebub: "Yeeees! A vile meal fit for the lord of evil MWAHAHAHa!"
Also Beezlebub should sound like Megatron.
Actually, if we're talking hedge witches, I would assume that Wisdom would be a more appropriate as they would observe a symptom, and apply a cure, and if it didn't work well... there ya go, know not to try that rosemary to tie a tourniquet next time.
Then again, layin' the hex on the girly who showed up at school wearing the same outfit as you witches seems to me someone who is lacking in intelligence, and heavily charismatic...
But, PF witches seem to me a class that you can play in a make believe game that is supposed to be fun.
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Actually, if we're talking hedge witches, I would assume that Wisdom would be a more appropriate as they would observe a symptom, and apply a cure, and if it didn't work well... there ya go, know not to try that rosemary to tie a tourniquet next time.
Then again, layin' the hex on the girly who showed up at school wearing the same outfit as you witches seems to me someone who is lacking in intelligence, and heavily charismatic...
But, PF witches seem to me a class that you can play in a make believe game that is supposed to be fun.
You know, I could easily see archtypes that use Wisdom and Charisma for the casting stat rather than Intelligence. Also, thanks for mentioning the fun part.
So if the Witch is supposed to be so charismatic, then why do witches tend to live secluded from society, often mistrusted, and often hunted down? One doesn't need to make people like them or fear them to make an intelligent tradeoff, making a pact isn't always about being able to manipulate. Maybe two mistrusted entities understand each other much better than all the people that exiled them.
As far as using Intelligence for the main stat, it does make a lot of sense.
Casting Source:
Intelligence - Knowledge, research, studying
Wisdom - Faith, discipline, and reverence
Charisma - Personality, spirit
The casting stat says a lot about a class.
So if the Witch is supposed to be so charismatic, then why do witches tend to live secluded from society, often mistrusted, and often hunted down?
There are a hole ton of witches who are not social exiles and who have a high charisma (possibly as a defining trait). Heck even some of the social exiles have high charisma (Ursula in the Little Mermaid). Having a high charisma is quite common in fact. For example...
Galadriel, Good Witch of the North, The Scarlet Witch, Maharet and Mekare, Marry Poppins, Granny Weatherwax, Samantha Stephens, Morgan Le Fay, Sabrina(of the teenage variety), Zatanna, Queen Beryl, Edea, Wendy the Good Little Witch, Queen Bavmorda, Medea, Shota the Witch Woman, Nancy Downs, and Kiki.
Winnie Sanderson's best stat is her Intelligence, Sarah Sanderson's is her Charisma, and Mary Sanderson got the short end of the stick because she doesn't really have any good stats. Now, I'm actually totally okay with Pathfinder just focusing in on the cunning witch trope. That's fine. All I'm saying is not all witches are like Baba-yaga or The Wicked Witch of the West.
I'd count Howl in there too.
How the hell did I miss him?? I was watching it when I wrote that post! Now I feel stupid.
I think it's often the case that popular protagonists and antagonists in fiction are charismatic. It has more to do with them being main characters than anything to do with their powers.
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As to the whole Charisma vs. Intelligence for Witches thing, I actually like the idea of Witches being able to base their casting off any of their choice of three mental stats (perhaps by selecting different archetypes?).
Maiden, Mother, and Crone equating to Charisma, Intelligence, and Wisdom.
I admit to having a preference for Charisma-based casting, myself, however.
As to the whole Charisma vs. Intelligence for Witches thing, I actually like the idea of Witches being able to base their casting off any of their choice of three mental stats (perhaps by selecting different archetypes?).
Maiden, Mother, and Crone equating to Charisma, Intelligence, and Wisdom.
I admit to having a preference for Charisma-based casting, myself, however.
I already did this for my home game. Maiden/Youth = Charisma and gains bluff as a class skill. Mother/Father = Wisdom and gains sense motive as a class skill. Crone/Elder = Intelligence and is as standard witch.
Aren't the people making pacts, and surviving them, going to be the ones that know the rules and how to manipulate them. That seems to me to be a function of intelligence. You don't come out on top of pact by being charming, you do it be being clever, that's holds true in pretty much any story I've ever seen concerning such. Now I'm not saying you can't make a perfectly reasonable case for another stat, but to just get locked into one and say it has to be that way is a bit silly IMHO.
Frankly, I'd like to see class abilities mostly divorced stats, or have the importance of stats greatly reduced, like in the oldest version of D&D. It would make it a lot easier to do things like the charming fighter, the sagely intelligent cleric, or whatever have you without the having to settle with being somewhere between subpar to completely undoable.
Anyway, as for the original post, the class with the most roleplaying potential and flavor is the one that works best with your concept. For some things the sorcerer will be better, for some things the wizard will be better, and for some things it might not even matter all that much.
A lot of the argument here is that because the witch has a pact, she must be charismatic. Is it not possible for someone with low charisma to not make any deals? Is it impossible for a character with low charisma to have friends? Can a person not have ONE friend where everyone else finds that person abrasive? Can a witch not have a pact with a demon without being the prom queen?
In fantasy literature, the terms witch, wizard, sorcerer/sorceress, magus, and warlock get tossed around rather loosely and often synonymously.
As far as making a pact goes, can't problems and the seclusion from society drive someone to make that pact in the first place?
Just saying, there doesn't always have to be charismatic characters to make a pact. That's like saying a character can't buy something at a store because her charisma is too low.
Though, Pathfinder's description of witch leaves a lot up for interpretation trying to appease all views flavor wise.
I'm not sure where your 'social intelligence' is coming in.
The ability to understand others motivations is Sense Motive, which is a Wisdom skill. You understand how people think and react.
Diplomacy and BLuff are not social intelligence...they are social bulldozer and social masquerade respectfully, while Intimidate is a social hammer. One convinces people of what you want, one convinces them you want what they want, and one convinces them you are extremely dangerous. Understanding, a side note of intelligence, isn't necessary at all here.
Furthermore, ranks are intelligence and learning, stats are just 'natural talent'. A witch with the brains to put points into social skills is better then a charismatic dodohead who gets by on looks.
So charisma has absolutely nothing to do with a pact. A witch with Int can negotiate a contract with precise wording to her benefit...that's just like a profession (lawyer) check, or a knowledge (arcana) check to make a correct pact.
A charisma caster is going to 'wing it' and just browbeat the other party into giving them what they want. Both approaches are equally viable.
Charisma is not subtle. It tends to be anything BUT subtle. Wisdom is both subtle and sly. Intelligence can be either way.
I tend to see the 'hag' basis of the witch class bowing towards Intelligence, not Charisma. Having a charismatic witch is fine, but most lovely witches in novels are probably sorceresses, not witches.
===Aelryinth
Couldn't the patron get a more favorable deal on their terms if the person they are dealing with is not charismatic and good at making deals like some uses of diplomacy to haggle out a deal. Also doesn't the witch need to be able to understand the pact which is int to sucessfully negotiate.
Could someone show me where either the witch or patron is getting a better deal out of the pact than the other?
The Winter Witches rule an entire nation for their patron, Baba Yaga.
While I figure you could use demon lords or Great old Ones as patrons, I think they could also be a more terrestrial menaces. Ancient dragons, liches, and other strange powers, just as well as things from other realms. I mean they don't grant magic, like a god to a cleric, but since witches learn their magic, like wizards, the patrons could just be, essentially, really distant teachers, using the familiar as a conduit. I suppose the patron wouldn't have to be a magical being at all, if he or she could find a way to pick out people with the potential to do magic, lure them in with promises of power, and throw in a familiar with scrolls for brains and some primitive hokum (hexes) and you got a witch.
Sense Motive gives people an understanding of other people's inner workings, but to actually use that knowledge (as demonstrated by Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate) requires Charisma.
The most intelligently written pact in the world will get you nowhere unless you're able to convince the other person to sign on. That requires charisma.
The issue of brow beating (ie. using strength for Intimidate) is non-standard enough in the game as to require a feat.
No. Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate require SKILL RANKS. Charisma is nowhere 'required' for you to take ranks. It just helps you.
Knowledge is knowledge. Trying to claim Charisma is social 'knowledge' is completely erroneous. Charisma is social 'talent.'
And browbeating is not Intimidation. It's using the force of your personality to get the other person to do what you want, be it by charm, lying, or fear. It doesn't give them a chance.
And the most Charismatic person in the world isn't going to get anywhere if the pact he wants to push is so stupid the other person won't sign on...or the obverse, the most Charismatic person in the world could very well be signing away stuff he doesn't have to (like, say, his soul) because he's not smart enough to realize he's doing it. That requires Intelligence...you have to know what you're doing, not just get the other person to sign.
And high Charisma doesn't prevent the same thing being done to you. That's Wisdom. Social engineering be about the receiving as well as the giving, and you're using a very, very tight view of the situation.
==Aelryinth