Why does a caltrop block movement for a creature who can jump 10 feet?
Before we start, Question: Where the heck did caltrops come from?
A caltrop does NOT block movement for a creature that can jump 10 feet. A caltrop can block movement for a running or charging creature. However, the existence of caltrops does not make the space difficult terrain nor does it immediately block movement.
If your enemy has a perimeter of caltrops set around him, you can attempt to charge through them. However, if you step on a caltrop the charge ends.
You can't jump over a caltrop bed while charging, just like you can't jump over a chasm while charging.
@the AND argument.
this is one clause with two conditions, which both need to be met. I think we are actually on the same side of this :).
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Let's take a look at Earth Glide...
Earth Glide (Su): ** spoiler omitted **
Let's see, you have an ability that lets you move at your base speed through earth. That's kind of like ignoring the difficult terrain, so you would not be impeded by the terrain anymore - if you wanted to charge through the earth.
It's like if you gave your monk the ability to fly, the chasm doesn't matter anymore does it?
But in both cases, I am activating an ability/skill to move past an obstacle as part of a charge. In the case of the monk, I cannot fail to clear a 20' chasm. It would not change my movement in the slightest. Jump does not state that it is part of a move action, but part of any movement..
Action: None. An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
Charge is an action that requires movement, and I should be able to jump as part of a charge.
The difficult terrain hinders your movement up until the very moment when you make the jump check to get past it. Since acrobatics checks are made as parts of other actions, you don't get to make the check until you are next to the difficult terrain.
So, if you have a listed fly speed (like the raven) you can bypass the difficult terrain from the very beginning of your movement. It does not block or hinder you, and you can charge. If you are a druid, the undergrowth never hinders you. You can charge.
If, however, you have no listed fly speed and no "always on" ability to let you ignore it, then it hinders your movement up until the exact moment you make the check. Since the criteria that nothing can hinder your movement must be met before the charge is initiated, you can't charge across difficult terrain by avoiding it with a jump check. The jump check can't be made until after the charge starts, and the charge can't be made until after the jump check. Even if you would auto-succeed on the jump check, you can't make the check itself, so you can't ignore the terrain, so you can't charge.
Charge is an action that requires movement, and I should be able to jump as part of a charge.
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
1. The path is obstructed to you, you need to jump to clear it. Fails qualifiers for charging.
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.
2. If you jump while charging you are no longer qualifying for a charge as you are no longer moving directly towards your opponent, you are veering away from that direction by now moving in an arc.
You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent
@Bascaria
Well put together, maybe I'm not being concise enough with my responses
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Charge is an action that requires movement, and I should be able to jump as part of a charge.Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
1. The path is obstructed to you, you need to jump to clear it. Fails qualifiers for charging.
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.
2. If you jump while charging you are no longer qualifying for a charge as you are no longer moving directly towards your opponent, you are veering away from that direction by now moving in an arc.
You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent
Lets take this one step at a time,
assuming a straight path with no obstacle or hindering terrain. Can I jump as part of a charge? For what ever reason. (Say, I just want to be a dip and jump while charging.)
The rules as Written say that you can do a jump as part of any action that requires movement. Since a charge involves movement, I should be able to jump as part of it.
The rules as Written say that you can do a jump as part of any action that requires movement. Since a charge involves movement, I should be able to jump as part of it.
This is a misconception.
What acrobatics actually says is: An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
It does not say all movement based actions allow acrobatics checks, it simply says that this kind of check is associated with another action and does not require a standardized action type to initiate.
It is my personal stance that you cannot jump & charge (even if you just wanted to and there was no terrain/obstacle issues).
Charge is an action that requires movement, and I should be able to jump as part of a charge.Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
1. The path is obstructed to you, you need to jump to clear it. Fails qualifiers for charging.
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.
2. If you jump while charging you are no longer qualifying for a charge as you are no longer moving directly towards your opponent, you are veering away from that direction by now moving in an arc.
You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent
Lets take this one step at a time,
assuming a straight path with no obstacle or hindering terrain. Can I jump as part of a charge? For what ever reason. (Say, I just want to be a dip and jump while charging.)
The rules as Written say that you can do a jump as part of any action that requires movement. Since a charge involves movement, I should be able to jump as part of it.
I feel pretty confident that the straight-line criteria is referring to 5-foot increments. So, as long as you don't jump so as high as to go into the cube above you, you're alright jumping as part of a charge.
However, you would make that jump check AFTER the charge has already started, as I mentioned above. If the jump was necessary in order to start the charge, then you can never start the charge in order to make the jump, so you can't make the jump which would let you start the charge, so you can't start the charge to let you make the jump, so you....
Before we start, Question: Where the heck did caltrops come from?
-adventuremart
In all seriousness its an example of a conditional movement stopper.
You can't jump over a caltrop bed while charging, just like you can't jump over a chasm while charging.
Well thats rather circular.
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
Does a pit block movement?- If you can jump it no.
Does broken grown slow movement? Not if you can jump it.Or in other words, forget the charge for a minute. If your barbarian were to go from his square to a foe 40 feet away on flat ground he needs 40 feet.
If your barbarian wants to walk to an opponent 40 feet away, but there's 10 feet of broken ground in between, how much speed does he need? Without jumping its 50. With jumping its 40. So if the barbarian can make the check, he isn't slowed.
Before we start, Question: Where the heck did caltrops come from?-adventuremart
In all seriousness its an example of a conditional movement stopper.
You can't jump over a caltrop bed while charging, just like you can't jump over a chasm while charging.Well thats rather circular.
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.Does a pit block movement?- If you can jump it no.
Does broken grown slow movement? Not if you can jump it.Or in other words, forget the charge for a minute. If your barbarian were to go from his square to a foe 40 feet away on flat ground he needs 40 feet.
If your barbarian wants to walk to an opponent 40 feet away, but there's 10 feet of broken ground in between, how much speed does he need? Without jumping its 50. With jumping its 40. So if the barbarian can make the check, he isn't slowed.
But he IS slowed up until he makes the check. And he can't make the check until he has started his movement. And if that movement is a charge action, then he can't start it while slowed...
But he IS slowed up until he makes the check. And he can't make the check until he has started his movement. And if that movement is a charge action, then he can't start it while slowed...
Put the cat down Schrodinger. You can look in the box.
You are either slowed or you are not. If you make the check you are not slowed. If you miss the check you are slowed.
But he IS slowed up until he makes the check. And he can't make the check until he has started his movement. And if that movement is a charge action, then he can't start it while slowed...Put the cat down Schrodinger. You can look in the box.
You are either slowed or you are not. If you make the check you are not slowed. If you miss the check you are slowed.
You are slowed until proven otherwise. You can't prove otherwise until you make the jump check. You can't make the jump check until you begin moving. You can't charge until you are proven unslowed. So you can't charge. That's my point. You CAN'T look in the box.
You are slowed until proven otherwise. You can't prove otherwise until you make the jump check. You can't make the jump check until you begin moving. You can't charge until you are proven unslowed. So you can't charge.
But he IS slowed up until he makes the check. And he can't make the check until he has started his movement. And if that movement is a charge action, then he can't start it while slowed...Put the cat down Schrodinger. You can look in the box.
You are either slowed or you are not. If you make the check you are not slowed. If you miss the check you are slowed.
If you're going to make slowing a property of the squares and not consider it relative to the person, then what you're saying is that broken ground stops fliers from charging.
-What if you absolutely can't miss the jump check even on a 1. Can you jump then?
You are slowed until proven otherwise. You can't prove otherwise until you make the jump check. You can't make the jump check until you begin moving. You can't charge until you are proven unslowed. So you can't charge.
But he IS slowed up until he makes the check. And he can't make the check until he has started his movement. And if that movement is a charge action, then he can't start it while slowed...Put the cat down Schrodinger. You can look in the box.
You are either slowed or you are not. If you make the check you are not slowed. If you miss the check you are slowed.
If you're going to make slowing a property of the squares and not consider it relative to the person, then what you're saying is that broken ground stops fliers from charging.
-What if you absolutely can't miss the jump check even on a 1. Can you jump then?
Check my post above. If you have a listed speed which lets you bypass the obstruction, then you aren't obstructed at the moment you initiate the charge (which is where you check to see if you are obstructed or not). Thus, if you a fly speed or a burrow speed or are a druid charging through undergrowth, you are fine. Yes, in those cases you can charge.
However, jump only lets you ignore the difficult terrain once you have begun moving. Even if you will auto-succeed, that doesn't happen until AFTER you start moving. So no, in that case you can't charge. Because the promise of an auto-succeed in the future is different from an actual success in the present.
However, jump only lets you ignore the difficult terrain once you have begun moving. Even if you will auto-succeed, that doesn't happen until AFTER you start moving. So no, in that case you can't charge. Because the promise of an auto-succeed in the future is different from an actual success in the present.
You're relying on a fair bit of metalogic there that is outside the rules. There is no difference between the possibility of something that might stop someone from using jump as a check if they must succeed on a one and something in the future that MIGHT stop someone from flying over the obstacle. Someone could be waiting in the shadows with a wingclip or earthbind spell for the charging flier to go over the rough area or pit.
There is also no rule that says you have to succeed in order to try.
However, jump only lets you ignore the difficult terrain once you have begun moving. Even if you will auto-succeed, that doesn't happen until AFTER you start moving. So no, in that case you can't charge. Because the promise of an auto-succeed in the future is different from an actual success in the present.You're relying on a fair bit of metalogic there that is outside the rules. There is no difference between the possibility of something that might stop someone from using jump as a check if they must succeed on a one and something in the future that MIGHT stop someone from flying over the obstacle. Someone could be waiting in the shadows with a wingclip or earthbind spell for the charging flier to go over the rough area or pit.
There is also no rule that says you have to succeed in order to try.
But until you've tried you are slowed, and you can't attempt while you are slowed.
There is also a vast difference between the auto-success jump and the possibility of something stopping the jump. On the auto-success jump, it might be an auto-success, and likely nothing will happen to stop it, but it hasn't happened yet. You haven't made the jump, you haven't avoided the terrain, you haven't been unslowed. With something stopping the charge (say, someone in a square adjacent to one you are charging through using stand still on you), then at the moment the charge initiated you were fine. The conditions which allowed you to charge ceased to be in place, and so you stopped charging.
With the jump check, the conditions which allow you to charge (being unslowed) NEVER EXISTED. You cannot start the charge.
I've always allowed a jump during a charge if the jump comes near the end of the movement, so long as the spot where they land/end the charge is clear, as required, and the obstacle is low (debris, a body, a pit). Of course, I make them roll for Acrobatics. I allow this for various reasons:
1. It's reasonable. Momentum is momentum, even if the last few feet requires a leap.
2. It's more fun for the players and hardly breaks the game or anything.
3. When they fail their Acrobatics checks it's always truly hilarious to me.
I reasoned #1 out years ago in 3.X, when the question of how to rule somebody using a leap from a higher place (say a balcony) as their movement, with an attack against a target at the end. I consider that a charge. But the leap required a (then Jump) check. Seemed to be no real difference between that and leaping a pit while charging a foe.
Maybe a homeruling, but has it ever ruined a game or been anything more than entertaining? Nope, always fun.
I've always allowed a jump during a charge if the jump comes near the end of the movement, so long as the spot where they land/end the charge is clear, as required, and the obstacle is low (debris, a body, a pit). Of course, I make them roll for Acrobatics. I allow this for various reasons:
1. It's reasonable. Momentum is momentum, even if the last few feet requires a leap.
2. It's more fun for the players and hardly breaks the game or anything.
3. When they fail their Acrobatics checks it's always truly hilarious to me.
I reasoned #1 out years ago in 3.X, when the question of how to rule somebody using a leap from a higher place (say a balcony) as their movement, with an attack against a target at the end. I consider that a charge. But the leap required a (then Jump) check. Seemed to be no real difference between that and leaping a pit while charging a foe.
Maybe a homeruling, but has it ever ruined a game or been anything more than entertaining? Nope, always fun.
I'm not saying it breaks the game at all, but I'm saying it changes the game significantly as far as charging and protecting against charges is concerned, and I don't think the rules support it.
As for a houserule to allow it, go nuts. I don't think I'd have an issue with a player doing it at my table for the same reasons you've listed. I play a low OP table and want my players to have fun. This can lead to fun things. But I don't think it can lead to RAW legal things, and that's the distinction I'm trying to draw.
As for the "momentum is momentum" thing, though, that's not quite right. If a guy is running along in heavy armor carrying a big ol' greatsword and he tries to do a 10-foot leap or clear a hedge or fence, he has to convert a great deal of his forward momentum into upward momentum. That is hard, and a lot of momentum will be lost in the process, plus whatever he converts he can't get back as forward momentum again. So it will slow him down, and might knock him off balance when he lands.
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Okay, Another option Bascaria..
The monk starts a charge (nice clean, straight line, no obstacles), about mid-way through his charge, a wizard casts a quickened, readied "create pit" spell in front of the monk. The monk (being a dexy fellow) makes the reflex save and jumps the pit (it is, after all, only 10' wide). Does his charge stop, continue, or never start since there is now an obstacle?
I am just curious on to where you draw the line on not allowing jumps as part of a charge.
But until you've tried you are slowed, and you can't attempt while you are slowed.
I say until you've failed you're not slowed.
Okay, Another option Bascaria..
The monk starts a charge (nice clean, straight line, no obstacles), about mid-way through his charge, a wizard casts a quickened, readied "create pit" spell in front of the monk. The monk (being a dexy fellow) makes the reflex save and jumps the pit (it is, after all, only 10' wide). Does his charge stop, continue, or never start since there is now an obstacle?
I am just curious on to where you draw the line on not allowing jumps as part of a charge.
Depends on where the trap is. If the trap is beneath him, he makes the save and is never slowed. Same happens if he triggers a pit trap on his way over. Is it wonky and a bit illogical at first glance? Yeah. But that's the line.
It's not illogical after a first glance, though, because those aren't acrobatics checks and he's not jumping. Those are reflex saves. He takes a step, the ground starts to give way beneath him, but he pushes off and keeps going before it collapses completely.
If, however, the trap is placed on a square in front of him, then he is slowed, because he now has an obstacle in front of him. Charge ends.
I say until you've failed you're not slowed.
But you are making the jump check in order to avoid being slowed. The default is that you just run, because that's what your move speed says. If you want to do something else (let's say, jump, for example) then that is something you do when you get to the point where you jump.
The monk starts a charge (nice clean, straight line, no obstacles), about mid-way through his charge, a wizard casts a quickened, readied "create pit" spell in front of the monk. The monk (being a dexy fellow) makes the reflex save and jumps the pit (it is, after all, only 10' wide). Does his charge stop, continue, or never start since there is now an obstacle?
This is a curious question since you have already said that this takes place mid-charge. If it was before the charge the charge would be invalid at this moment and not allowed to take place.
It would seem that it would stop at the edge of the pit as the target is no longer unobstructed thus an invalid target for the charge.
There is also no rule that says you have to succeed in order to try.
Really?
Quote 1: You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).
Quote 2:If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.
You have to meet certain prerequisites to charge. These must be met when the charge is declared.
Whether the character can circumvent the obstacle or not, the rules for charging still prevent the charge if the obstacle is there. Both 3.5 and Pathfinder even had feats that specifically removed that annoying limitation. Unfortunately because of some very nasty abilities that kick off of charge [ Lance damage multiplications and Pounce ], it is a fairly important check and balance in the ruleset.
However, jump only lets you ignore the difficult terrain once you have begun moving. Even if you will auto-succeed, that doesn't happen until AFTER you start moving. So no, in that case you can't charge. Because the promise of an auto-succeed in the future is different from an actual success in the present.You're relying on a fair bit of metalogic there that is outside the rules. There is no difference between the possibility of something that might stop someone from using jump as a check if they must succeed on a one and something in the future that MIGHT stop someone from flying over the obstacle. Someone could be waiting in the shadows with a wingclip or earthbind spell for the charging flier to go over the rough area or pit.
There is also no rule that says you have to succeed in order to try.
But until you've tried you are slowed, and you can't attempt while you are slowed.
There is also a vast difference between the auto-success jump and the possibility of something stopping the jump. On the auto-success jump, it might be an auto-success, and likely nothing will happen to stop it, but it hasn't happened yet. You haven't made the jump, you haven't avoided the terrain, you haven't been unslowed. With something stopping the charge (say, someone in a square adjacent to one you are charging through using stand still on you), then at the moment the charge initiated you were fine. The conditions which allowed you to charge ceased to be in place, and so you stopped charging.
With the jump check, the conditions which allow you to charge (being unslowed) NEVER EXISTED. You cannot start the charge.
Okay...I jump before I encounter the terrain? So a 5'x5' patch of no charge here terrain is in the middle of my charge line of 40'. I start my jump 5' before the patch. How am I slowed?
Better yet, no patch. Nothing to hinder movement. I decide to jump anyway (for effect), can I still charge?
The hilarity here is even if you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt,and even the developers answer with a FAQ saying NO...it just flies in the face of heroic fantasy. (Granted...my version)
If the line is passing through a square that blocks movement there is no charge.If you jump the terrain it does not block movement.
If you're going to get that technical, then you've missed something.
You are hindered by moving through a square with difficult terrain. As the rules are written, this occurs when passing through any part of said square, whether you are walking, running, or jumping. The RAW does not make a differentiation in this case. You would actually have to jump over the square entirely in order to avoid the hazard, which, though possible for leaping-focused characters everywhere, would not maintain the straight line required to conduct a charge.
A silly argument, I'll be the first to admit. But this entire thread has turned into nothing but such arguments at this point ...
You are hindered by moving through a square with difficult terrain. As the rules are written, this occurs when passing through any part of said square, whether you are walking, running, or jumping. The RAW does not make a differentiation in this case
-By a highly technical reading of the raw, you could not fly through such a square to charge either.
-By a highly technical reading of the raw, you could not fly through such a square to charge either.
That is correct.
And we've crossed the 75 post threshhold.
Interesting point, Heaven's Agent. Hadn't thought of that, but makes sense.
FAQ and move on?
I've always allowed jumping as part of a charge, and I don't know that I've ever met a GM who didn't.
I've always allowed this as well. Character's don't just get godly Acrobatics modifiers without investing in it. If you can make the acrobatics check to clear a pit in the floor, a downed tree, or even a person then all's fair. Rule of Cool™ also applies here. About half the fantasy movies I've seen have heroes (even ones that you could never argue as duelists) performing such feats — it's an iconic part of sword and sorcery.
I'd have pretty big reservations about gaming under a GM who took issue with this after I'd gone thru pains to ensure my character has a godly Acrobatics check. If they took issue with this, there are far bigger things we'd butt heads over and it simply wouldn't be worth the headache.
As for the duelist, I can see plenty of instances where Acrobatic Charge still has plenty of relevance. Then again, I do tend to love my high-mobility characters.
I've always allowed jumping as part of a charge, and I don't know that I've ever met a GM who didn't.I've always allowed this as well. Character's don't just get godly Acrobatics modifiers without investing in it. If you can make the acrobatics check to clear a pit in the floor, a downed tree, or even a person then all's fair. Rule of Cool™ also applies here. About half the fantasy movies I've seen have heroes (even ones that you could never argue as duelists) performing such feats — it's an iconic part of sword and sorcery.
I'd have pretty big reservations about gaming under a GM who took issue with this after I'd gone thru pains to ensure my character has a godly Acrobatics check. If they took issue with this, there are far bigger things we'd butt heads over and it simply wouldn't be worth the headache.
As for the duelist, I can see plenty of instances where Acrobatic Charge still has plenty of relevance. Then again, I do tend to love my high-mobility characters.
The issue is that charging is incredibly powerful, and if you allow this for anyone, then it bypasses the primary defense against charges--putting stuff in the way.
I could see it as being especially dangerous versus cavaliers, whose high mounted move speed will more than cancel out their AC penalty, allowing them to pull this off so long as they invest in the skill. Then they can bring the full brunt of their spirited, cavalier's x3/X5 lance charge to bear, leaping clear over the fighter, the pit trap, the line of caltrops, the low wall, the undergrowth, and the hedge that the wizard is hiding behind all of that, thinking it was keeping him safe.
Same applies to the barbarian, running around with pounce, low AC penalty, and high dex/move speed. Charging is VERY powerful, and the severe restrictions on its use exist for a reason.
You are hindered by moving through a square with difficult terrain. As the rules are written, this occurs when passing through any part of said square, whether you are walking, running, or jumping. The RAW does not make a differentiation in this case. You would actually have to jump over the square entirely in order to avoid the hazard, which, though possible for leaping-focused characters everywhere, would not maintain the straight line required to conduct a charge.
Actually, I have been saying this for a while.
That is correct.
-By a highly technical reading of the raw, you could not fly through such a square to charge either.
*Facepalm
Please stop cherrypicking the rules you decide to cite for your argument. You are misleading people trying to follow this thread.
Difficult Terrain
Difficult terrain, such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs, hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares. You can't run or charge across difficult terrain.If you occupy squares with different kinds of terrain, you can move only as fast as the most difficult terrain you occupy will allow.
Flying and incorporeal creatures are not hampered by difficult terrain.
Obstacles
Like difficult terrain, obstacles can hamper movement. If an obstacle hampers movement but doesn't completely block it, each obstructed square or obstacle between squares counts as 2 squares of movement. You must pay this cost to cross the obstacle, in addition to the cost to move into the square on the other side. If you don't have sufficient movement to cross the obstacle and move into the square on the other side, you can't cross it. Some obstacles may also require a skill check to cross.On the other hand, some obstacles block movement entirely. A character can't move through a blocking obstacle.
Flying and incorporeal creatures are able to avoid most obstacles.
Therefore a flying creature could charge because it can use it's flying speed to fly and not be subject to certain restrictions that hamper creatures with only a land speed.
Please stop cherrypicking the rules you decide to cite for your argument. You are misleading people trying to follow this thread.
I wasn't cherrypicking; I simply wasn't aware of that rule.
Charging is VERY powerful, and the severe restrictions on its use exist for a reason.
When the 'cure' is worse than the 'disease' I'll pass, thanks.
Also, anything the PCs can do, monsters and NPCs can do too — at least that's how I GM. It's worked well so far and has led to some pretty exciting and dynamic combats in both the game I GM and play in.
Regardless of whether I dis/agree with your interpretation of RAW and RAI or anyone else's, I'm pretty sure we're getting into Wrong Bad Fun™ territory here. Thanks for your concern just the same though. It's good at least to make GMs think and evaluate the rules for themselves.
It's good at least to make GMs think and evaluate the rules for themselves.
Indeed. I'd rather take this broken interaction off the table entirely in my games - for players or myself. I don't need a charging cavalier/minotaur hopping over walls and causing mayhem.
Just my opinion of course.
Charging is VERY powerful, and the severe restrictions on its use exist for a reason.When the 'cure' is worse than the 'disease' I'll pass, thanks.
Also, anything the PCs can do, monsters and NPCs can do too — at least that's how I GM. It's worked well so far and has led to some pretty exciting and dynamic combats in both the game I GM and play in.
Regardless of whether I dis/agree with your interpretation of RAW and RAI or anyone else's, I'm pretty sure we're getting into Wrong Bad Fun™ territory here. Thanks for your concern just the same though. It's good at least to make GMs think and evaluate the rules for themselves.
Oh absolutely. Talking through stuff like this helps me immensely when a player tries to do something outside the explicitly allowed/disallowed ruleset to figure out quickly what the best and fairest response would be.
Wasn't trying to take it to wrongbadfun territory, and yeah, if the players can do it, then so can NPCs. Perhaps it would have been better phrased as follows:
Charging is incredibly powerful and allowing this increases its power while decreasing a defender's ability to protect himself against it. This will lead to a generally higher damage output, which is something I feel would be damaging to my table. It would also, though, create more capacity for "epic" moments on both sides of the screen. For me, the trade off of gaining some epic for higher rates character death from charging NPC cavaliers isn't worth it.
If it hasn't been mentioned before, there was a whole host of feats based off of the ability to charge and jump. The problem here is that some other things in the game have not been properly updated to deal with acrobatics and jump skill being merged. So the short answer is, yes you can use acrobatics to get over terrain, but note that there are restrictions on the distance and height you can jump, as well as the movement before the jump.
If it hasn't been mentioned before, there was a whole host of feats based off of the ability to charge and jump. The problem here is that some other things in the game have not been properly updated to deal with acrobatics and jump skill being merged. So the short answer is, yes you can use acrobatics to get over terrain, but note that there are restrictions on the distance and height you can jump, as well as the movement before the jump.
Do you have any actual rules (Pathfinder rules, not 3.5e feats) to back this up? Because the pathfinder rules seem pretty silent on the issue to all of us here, and the preponderance of abilities, feats, and classes which make a big deal out of being able to charge over difficult terrain seems to suggest--to me at least--that it is not something easily bypassed by a simple acrobatics check.
If it hasn't been mentioned before, there was a whole host of feats based off of the ability to charge and jump. The problem here is that some other things in the game have not been properly updated to deal with acrobatics and jump skill being merged. So the short answer is, yes you can use acrobatics to get over terrain, but note that there are restrictions on the distance and height you can jump, as well as the movement before the jump.Do you have any actual rules (Pathfinder rules, not 3.5e feats) to back this up? Because the pathfinder rules seem pretty silent on the issue to all of us here, and the preponderance of abilities, feats, and classes which make a big deal out of being able to charge over difficult terrain seems to suggest--to me at least--that it is not something easily bypassed by a simple acrobatics check.
I did say was, as referring to 3.5. Using acrobatics while charging was always a question for our group. However feats like Leap Attack from 3.5 specifically required you to jump while charging. It is also simple sense that one can jump while charging. That is completely clearing an obstetrical with out the use of any limbs but your legs.
My point is, that I think the problem here is that not everything was updated to handle the combination of jump and acrobatics. If you, or your GM wants to rule against the players that is their call. Many many things have fallen through the upgrade from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
P.S. Feats and Skills were all meant to modify existing rules by RAI. As for abilities like acrobatic charge, being able to jump over an obstetrical is restricting. Distance and height are a factor. This ability seems to enable one to not be restricted by height and distance one can leap. While this isn't exactly intended (as this skill use and charge seems over looked), still a very useful ability. This is at least how I would rule it.
If it hasn't been mentioned before, there was a whole host of feats based off of the ability to charge and jump. The problem here is that some other things in the game have not been properly updated to deal with acrobatics and jump skill being merged. So the short answer is, yes you can use acrobatics to get over terrain, but note that there are restrictions on the distance and height you can jump, as well as the movement before the jump.Do you have any actual rules (Pathfinder rules, not 3.5e feats) to back this up? Because the pathfinder rules seem pretty silent on the issue to all of us here, and the preponderance of abilities, feats, and classes which make a big deal out of being able to charge over difficult terrain seems to suggest--to me at least--that it is not something easily bypassed by a simple acrobatics check.I did say was, as referring to 3.5. Using acrobatics while charging was always a question for our group. However feats like Leap Attack from 3.5 specifically required you to jump while charging. It is also simple sense that one can jump while charging. That is completely clearing an obstetrical with out the use of any limbs but your legs.
My point is, that I think the problem here is that not everything was updated to handle the combination of jump and acrobatics. If you, or your GM wants to rule against the players that is their call. Many many things have fallen through the upgrade from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
P.S. Feats and Skills were all meant to modify existing rules by RAI. As for abilities like acrobatic charge, being able to jump over an obstetrical is restricting. Distance and height are a factor. This ability seems to enable one to not be restricted by height and distance one can leap. While this isn't exactly intended (as this skill use and charge seems over looked), still a very useful ability. This is at least how I would rule it.
But I've never denied the ability to jump while charging. All I've denied is the ability to use a jump while charging in order to ignore difficult terrain.
Putting this out there: People have selective reading/memory when talking about this subject and 3.5.
I did say was, as referring to 3.5. Using acrobatics while charging was always a question for our group. However feats like Leap Attack from 3.5 specifically required you to jump while charging. It is also simple sense that one can jump while charging. That is completely clearing an obstetrical with out the use of any limbs but your legs.My point is, that I think the problem here is that not everything was updated to handle the combination of jump and acrobatics. If you, or your GM wants to rule against the players that is their call. Many many things have fallen through the upgrade from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
Disclaimer: I will I have never played 3.5 and I don't know all the rules. But I will cite the feat Leap Attack for this part of my argument.
Leap Attack
In reading this feat we can gather some information.
1. In 3.5 you need this feat in order to jump while charging. You do not have this benefit if you do not have Leap Attack.
2. Pathfinder is based on 3.5, this should be the same in Pathfinder. No feat = no dice.
3. In 3.5 difficult terrain applies to a square in regards to making a charge attempt, even if you jump over it. Thus, normally impeding the charge - but this feat provides an exception.
4. Pathfinder is silent on this.
But I've never denied the ability to jump while charging. All I've denied is the ability to use a jump while charging in order to ignore difficult terrain.
If you can jump common sense says you can...
Putting this out there: People have selective reading/memory when talking about this subject and 3.5.
I did say was, as referring to 3.5. Using acrobatics while charging was always a question for our group. However feats like Leap Attack from 3.5 specifically required you to jump while charging. It is also simple sense that one can jump while charging. That is completely clearing an obstetrical with out the use of any limbs but your legs.My point is, that I think the problem here is that not everything was updated to handle the combination of jump and acrobatics. If you, or your GM wants to rule against the players that is their call. Many many things have fallen through the upgrade from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
Disclaimer: I will I have never played 3.5 and I don't know all the rules. But I will cite the feat Leap Attack for this part of my argument.
Leap Attack** spoiler omitted **
In reading this feat we can gather some information.
1. In 3.5 you need this feat in order to jump while charging. You do not have this benefit if you do not have Leap Attack.
2. Pathfinder is based on 3.5, this should be the same in Pathfinder. No feat = no dice.
3. In 3.5 difficult terrain applies to a square in regards to making a charge attempt, even if you jump...
Argh, you are not familiar with 3.5 rules, plus that feat is NOT OGL! remove it before someone get in trouble. You are looking too closely into a feat. The feat was supposed to enable a higher damage capability.
You are looking too closely into a feat. The feat was supposed to enable a higher damage capability.
Really? Is that why it has all that rules "fluff"?
If you can jump common sense says you can...
But I've never denied the ability to jump while charging. All I've denied is the ability to use a jump while charging in order to ignore difficult terrain.
Except that the rules don't.
In order to make the jump check to ignore difficult terrain, you have to already be moving. In order to already be moving you have to have started your charge. In order to start your charge, there can't be any difficult terrain between you and your target. In order to make the jump check to ignore the difficult terrain you have to be already moving. Etc.
You can't charge if anything would slow your movement. The DT slows your movement until you jump it, so you can't charge. If you want to jump for flavor, or to gain the benefits of a feat, then leap away. But you can't do it to get over difficult terrain.