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I was under the impression that one could charge using any form of movement available to them - swim, fly, whatever. I also took that to mean that one could attempt a jump check to clear a bit of detritus or whatever that might be in the way while you charged. Anyone familiar with a ruling on this?
You can't do it. Read the charge rules on page 198. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).
AFAIK only the acrobatic charge ability of the duelist allows you to do this.
Acrobatic Charge (Ex)
At 6th level, a duelist gains the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain.
but difficult terrain wouldn't hinder your movement if you jumped over it...
Bingo! we have a winner.
Jumping doesn't slow your movement.
I know the 3.5 FAQ answered this specifically. I don't know of it being definitively addressed in Pathfinder.
AFAIK only the acrobatic charge ability of the duelist allows you to do this.
Acrobatic Charge (Ex)
At 6th level, a duelist gains the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain.
That's what threw me, it specifically allows something that I was not aware was disallowed in the first place. I dont know anything that says you cant jump while charging, and jumping over something seems like a pretty straightforward use of that.
However, under that logic, I dont know what acrobatic charge would do at all, so it seems like the intent is that you're not normally allowed to charge while jumping, and I can see no reason that would be the case.
The existance of Acrobatic Charge implies to me (at least) that you can't jump to avoid difficult terrain while charging.
1. It would no longer be a straight line (shortest distance) as you are ascending in an arc (or multiple arcs).
2. You couldn't initiate a charge because you'd be blocked by difficult terrain. Notice that charge doesn't say anything about you being able to circumvent this terrain or jump over it. You can't charge if your path is obstructed, peroid.
3. It would be quite a minor benefit to have acrobatic charge if you could just jump. duelists would really be getting the shaft.
Let me help you..
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
Sorry... no jumping over difficult terrain to charge.
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James Jacobs on this
"Nothing's changed here, really. Jumping is a part of movement. If you're charging and part of that charge needs to be a jump, that's fine. You'll just need to make the appropriate Acrobatics DC to make the jump; if you fail the jump, obviously your charge is wasted.
"
So you can jump as part of your movement to avoid difficult terrain - jumping over an ally would require an impressive high jump
Forgetting the rules for a second, jumping during a charge didn't make much sense to me at first, but that's because I was picturing Braveheart and his army jumping around like bunnies.
I could clearly see someone charging across a field, having to leap over a log or body in the process, or maybe leap up unto a large flat rock. I don't see a problem with allowing a mid-charge leap under these conditions:
* The obstacle is narrow enough to leap over,
* The obstacle has a fairly low profile, and
* The ground on the other side of the obstacle is flat and clear,
An Acrobatic Charge would allow a creature to charge through ongoing uneven terrain, whereas a lesser creature could twist their ankle.
It would also allow a charge that requires the usage of additional limbs, such as Bumblebee's leaping charge to grab the humans in the latest Transformers movie.
- Eric
So you can jump as part of your movement to avoid difficult terrain - jumping over an ally would require an impressive high jump
If this is indeed the case, I hope the charging rules will be updated by Paizo in the PRD to reflect this.
As such, the RAW seems to counter James' assertion.
thats too bad.
wasn't there was a feat in 3.5 that doubled your power attack bonus when you jumped during a charge.
Yes, and I rather badly want to emulate that sort of feel in a Pathfinder game, if you've got any recommendations, I'm all ears.
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So you can jump as part of your movement to avoid difficult terrain - jumping over an ally would require an impressive high jumpIf this is indeed the case, I hope the charging rules will be updated by Paizo in the PRD to reflect this.
As such, the RAW seems to counter James' assertion.
Not exactly. There's a difference between charging and starting to charge. You could start to charge, then have something happen mid-movement (like a bit of floor giving way, or a readied spell producing difficult terrain, or failing your jump) that makes the charge illegal and stops it.
Note that even in the bit of rules you quoted yourself, the final line (right after where your bolding stopped) says that a helpless creature doesn't "stop" a charge, therefore implying (by the rules of language) that a charge is something that theoretically could be stopped.
I don`t see a conflict between James Jacobs` take on it, and Stynkk`s quote/bolding of:
Because a square of difficult terrain/etc ONLY slows your movement IF YOU AREN`T JUMPING (Flying) OVER IT. :-)
I WOULD say that the `shortest path` (or whatever) wording IS still in play... That is subject to the minimum unit of distance in PRPG, the 5` square,
so you CAN jump some distance vertically to clear difficult terrain AS LONG AS YOU DON`T JUMP MORE THAN 5` HIGH (which would increase the distance you travelled as far as the game is concerned). Technically, you CAN move one diagonal without increasing the distance travelled (unless you already moved an odd number of diagonals), but in MOST cases there will always be a `returning to land` diagonal to match a `upward` diagonal.
The only `single diagonal` case I can imagine would be if you are Charging a creature whose adjacent space from which you would normally attack them from is occupied by another creature (or something preventing you from entering/attack from that space). If you can Jump 5` high, you can Charge into and attack from the space ABOVE the problematic square, and that movement is still equal distance to the problematic square (unless you already moved an odd number of diagonals). Of course, you would then fall, unless the intervening obstruction was an object you could land on.
The rules don`t actually say `straight line` anywhere... So as long as a Jump arc isn`t changing the distance travelled as far as the game concerned, it`s still the same `shortest possible distance`. Another case where you don`t actually have to move in a straight line is when the target moves location DURING YOUR CHARGE (Readied Action, etc). Changing the direction of your Charge to CONTINUE towards their new location is legit, as that is the shortest path towards them.
I`m not sure why people find the Acrobatic Charge ability as `proof` of this one way or the other... Acrobatic Charge has NOTHING to do with Jumping to bypass Difficult Terrain, rather, it says you can Charge thru Difficult Terrain WITHOUT bypassing it (still suffering the movement penalty, which Jumping doesn`t). Acrobatic Charge has a bunch of other benefits which Jumping doesn`t: if you start out on difficult terrain you can still Charge (Jumping would need to use Standing Jump rules, which suck), you can move thru Difficult Terrai equal to your full effective move speed, albeit affected by Difficult Terrain (not just the amount of Difficult Terrain you can Jump over), you can Charge thru 3-d Difficult Terrain that Jumping/Flying can`t bypass, etc.
Note: this is assuming that there is a difference between `surface difficult terrain` (which would impede land speed, but not flyers or jumpers) and `3d difficult terrain`, which Black Tentacles for example produces thru-out it`s AoE and should be applicable vs. flyers/jumpers, thus preventing them from Charging as well.
but difficult terrain wouldn't hinder your movement if you jumped over it...
If you have to jump you have an obstacle. Obstacles are obstructions in your path therefore no charing.
@wraith: the fundamental issue preventing a Charge is not whether there is an obstacle, or even Difficult Terrain: Rather, it is that your movement is HINDERED...
Obstacles and Difficult Terrain are simply things that usually accomplish that. If you can ignore Difficult Terrain, then it doesn`t hinder you. If you can jump over an obstacle (to land-walkers) without affecting your move distance, then your movement isn`t hindered. This is all based on the fundamental minimum distance unit in PRPG, the 5` square.
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but difficult terrain wouldn't hinder your movement if you jumped over it...If you have to jump you have an obstacle. Obstacles are obstructions in your path therefore no charing.
Did you miss up-thread where someone referenced that this issue was conclusively addressed by the powers that be?
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However, under that logic, I dont know what acrobatic charge would do at all, so it seems like the intent is that you're not normally allowed to charge while jumping, and I can see no reason that would be the case.
Acrobatic charge allows you to charge in difficult terrain that normally slows down movement which implies that your movement is not slowed down when using Acrobatic charge within difficult terrain. It's very good for stairs, slippery/icy surfaces, narrow beams, on a tight rope, on top of a forest canopy, on rooftops, in the desert, in the snow, in light/heavy undergrowth... etc. etc. etc.
It's essentially the druid's Woodland Stride on crack, without the no damage from thorns clause (i.e. because it applies to everything, not just undergrowth...)
I wouldn`t jump on him just for disagreeding with James Jacobs.
JJ doesn`t really have any crunch competence within Paizo, and has been over-ruled many many times.
In this case, there is room to say that JJ`s opinion DOES match the RAW, but if they clearly diverged,
I think it`s reasonable to argue that JJ may say one thing but the RAW says another (until Errata`d, or at least offical Paizo `crunch dudes` speak to the issue).
Not in this case though.
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@wraith: the fundamental issue preventing a Charge is not whether there is an obstacle, or even Difficult Terrain: Rather, it is that your movement is HINDERED...
Obstacles and Difficult Terrain are simply things that usually accomplish that. If you can ignore Difficult Terrain, then it doesn`t hinder you. If you can jump over an obstacle (to land-walkers) without affecting your move distance, then your movement isn`t hindered. This is all based on the fundamental minimum distance unit in PRPG, the 5` square.
Yes to all! Quandary takes the thread cake!
Did you miss up-thread where someone referenced that this issue was conclusively addressed by the powers that be?but difficult terrain wouldn't hinder your movement if you jumped over it...If you have to jump you have an obstacle. Obstacles are obstructions in your path therefore no charing.
A charge is not a simple move so that would be incorrect. I saw it, but I know it is wrong. I will return with more evidence. Stay tuned.
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge
You being able to jump over the obstacles does not change the fact that the line passes though that square, which is what I was saying in the post Quandry replied too.
Edit:Someone brought this up earlier I see, but it was ignored.
Pathfinder SRD wrote:
Acrobatic Charge (Ex)
At 6th level, a duelist gains the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain.
Why would the highlighted part be included in the ability description if anyone can make those checks?
Exactly what I was going to hilite in response to PDK´s post that he believed Acrobatic Charge ´implied´ that you can move normally in Difficult Terrain, etc. Of course, if it meant what PDK thought, it could just say that directly, and then the functionality re: Charge wouldn´t even need to be stated, it would just apply logically from ignoring the Difficult Terrain. But it doesn´t say that, or anything like what Nimble Step (ignoring Difficult Terrain) says, it says it allows a Charge, period. If you are still making appropritate checks to successfully move, that in fact implies you are subject to the normal movement restrictions/penalties, those just don´t affect your ability to Charge.
Re: Wraith´s last post, again this gets to the point that not every square blocks or hinders movement equally to all characters/modes of movement. A 5´ tunnel that somebody has cast a spell coating the floor with ice, for example: does this REALLY impede the Charge of a Raven flying thru that tunnel? No, obviously, because that doesn´t hinder the Raven´s movement. If the means you cross a square with aren´t subject to the impediment present in that square, it doesn´t impede your movement. Jumping thru that square seems essentially identical to Flying thru that square for this purpose. I thought i posted this before, I´m not sure why you think that ´ignores´ that issue... Maybe you missed it. ???
So essentially, I find the line ¨(you can´t charge if) any line... passing thru a square... that (hinders) movement¨ to make sense only in the context of YOUR OWN movement (which is how the subject is treated earlier in the paragraph)... Otherwise, a character that can ignore ALL difficult terrain, for example, could still not charge thru difficult terrain because it COULD impede the movement of OTHER characters. Again, per the first line, Difficult Terrain per se doesn´t prevent a charge, you just can Charge as long as ¨nothing can hinder YOUR movement¨ (DT being a POSSIBLE example of that).
-You can't charge over difficult terrain.
- All james' ruling requires is the ruling that air is not difficult terrain.
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Quandry the RAW says if you draw a line from your position to the target, and that line is broken you can't charge.
Either that line will or wont be broken before you start to charge. When you jump you are moving at an angle which is not directly toward the target. The game is played in 3 dimensions. If I can move up(vertically) by jumping then why not horizontally to avoid an obstacle if it removes the the impeding obstacle from my path as you seem to want to do.
You also keep ignoring the RAW.
If any line from your starting space to ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.
Now obviously if you feel like you have to jump then that line is passing through a square that fits the above criteria.
A line does not go -----/\--------- where the "/\" is place where you need to jump. A line is ---------. That /\ is why you can't charge not a reason to be able to charge.
I will also add:
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles)....
This just enforces what I already wrote. If you have to jump then you don't have a clear path.
You would have to prove that the line is not passing through such an area to be able to charge.
I am about to FAQ this post. Feel free to do the same.
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I've always allowed jumping as part of a charge, and I don't know that I've ever met a GM who didn't. Acrobatic Charge, on the other hand, would allow you to tumble while charging, allowing you to avoid potential AoOs on the approach. It would also allow you to charge through the area of an entangle spell with the appropriate skill check or hell, even through a few squares of water with a successful Swim check. I interpret Acrobatic Charge as "you can overcome ANYTHING and still get your charge bonuses" while the standard rule is "if you can jump over it, cool, otherwise... no."
If you don't jump more than 5 feet into the air you can still be argued to be in your original square. As long as you don't leave the square you are, in game terms, moving in a strait line.
I've always allowed jumping as part of a charge, and I don't know that I've ever met a GM who didn't. Acrobatic Charge, on the other hand, would allow you to tumble while charging, allowing you to avoid potential AoOs on the approach. It would also allow you to charge through the area of an entangle spell with the appropriate skill check or hell, even through a few squares of water with a successful Swim check. I interpret Acrobatic Charge as "you can overcome ANYTHING and still get your charge bonuses" while the standard rule is "if you can jump over it, cool, otherwise... no."
I am not being snarky, but I never met a GM that did. It might be allowed to tumble to avoid an AoO, but not anything else.
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Here's a fun scenario to consider:
Fighter A is on the other side of a 10' ravine from Bad Guy B. This ravine is 100' deep and the terrain on either side of the ravine is normal. A and B are within 40' of each other, easily within Fighter A's double movement.
A---__---B
The ravine does not "block movement, slow movement, or contain a creature." You COULD move into those squares, you would just fall if you did so. In this scenario, can Fighter A still make a charge against B if he jumps the ravine?
Exactly BigNorseWolf, and that´s all that the rules really care about re: movement... Sub-5´ movement isn´t movement in this game, though it would count as physical action re: total immobilization/paralysis.
If jumping doesn´t affect move distance, it still conforms to the shortest path rule.
I from the beginning made clear that leaving the square was a tangential issue, and that the main case was jumping but NOT leaving the square. Again, I don´t see how the way Wraith is reading the final ´lines passing thru squares´ line wouldn´t equally appy to a Raven flying thru the same 5´ square whose floor is coated with ice, or to somebody who can ignore all Difficult Terrain. Again, it only makes sense (and conforms with the beginning of the section) if it means blocking/slowing YOUR movement, not anybody who could possibly be slowed (some wierd creature could move slow on normal, worked stone floors, for example). Jumping thru the square (NOT bypassing the square by Jumping, possibly taking a longer path) would seem to mean you aren´t affected by surface conditions, just like a Flyer isn´t.
If you don't jump more than 5 feet into the air you can still be argued to be in your original square. As long as you don't leave the square you are, in game terms, moving in a strait line.
There is still the wording saying the line that is drawn to the target must be unblocked. Even if you can jump over something without leaving your square that line was still cut off.
@Fatespinner: If a dragon has a fly speed it can charge so it would be able to do it. With that said, if the fighter has a way to charge that wont make him fall I would say yes he can charge.
Exactly BigNorseWolf, and that´s all that the rules really care about re: movement... Sub-5´ movement isn´t movement in this game, though it would count as physical action re: total immobilization/paralysis.
If jumping doesn´t affect move distance, it still conforms to the shortest path rule.
You can't just ignore the rules because you want too. That line is passing through a square. I use the misleading wording of obstacles and impeded earlier. The rules care about that but in a different sense. That is why the line going through a square with something in it is the issue. You have yet to counter that statement.
Hmmm, I'm surprised this has generated this much buzz. Wraith has it correct. Let's look at the rules for a second. The actual rules text is longer than the quotes being thrown around.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).
This deals with Quandary's case of the raven, if you can fly then difficult terrain would not hinder your movement. If you can't fly and there's a chasm in the way then I'd say that does prevent [hinder] your movement and it is an obstacle that affects you.
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge
Note how this text doesn't say anything about using skills or other methods to surpass/hurdle these impediments. If the difficult terrain, chasm, etc would impede your normal movement speed then you cant charge. Period. It also says that this line is drawn before you even start to charge, so your character has no way of performing "on the fly" circumvention.
This is why I'm in disagreement with James. If they wanted to allow jumping, etc then the second part of the text would have been reworded.
The rules don`t actually say `straight line` anywhere...
But the rules do say "line" and not "arc". We all know that pathfinder does not have adequate 3D rules [attacking up at a creature's height, etc], and in all likelihood the 3d aspect was not taken into account during the rules construction so we have to assume that movement is described in two dimensions.
All right people, let's go to plan B:
We're already up to 40 posts, and no closer to general agreement. FAQ the OP and let it go.
I like FAQ'ing my post better since it is more specific.
There is still the wording saying the line that is drawn to the target must be unblocked. Even if you can jump over something without leaving your square that line was still cut off.
I don't consider a pit to be blocking your path, or caltrops, or a drop off of a cliff.
Melee types already loose enough damage to terrain thats supposed to be making the fight interesting for them. There should be uses for acrobatics besides tumbling. Am i letting those considerations lean a ruling? Possibly. Is it ignoring raw? No.
There is still the wording saying the line that is drawn to the target must be unblocked. Even if you can jump over something without leaving your square that line was still cut off.I don't consider a pit to be blocking your path, or caltrops, or a drop off of a cliff.
Melee types already loose enough damage to terrain thats supposed to be making the fight interesting for them. There should be uses for acrobatics besides tumbling. Am i letting those considerations lean a ruling? Possibly. Is it ignoring raw? No.
I don't consider the pit to be blocking the path either. The reason you can charge across a pit for an entirely different reason. The character can't walk on air. It has nothing to do with the charge rules which I thought I clarified when I was asked about the ravine by Fatespinner.
Melees being harassed by terrain is not a factor when deciding what a rule is. The rule works the way it works. There are uses for acrobatics besides tumbling they just don't apply to charges.
Actually are you are ignoring RAW. You like everyone else has no answer for my "line" post. If the line is passing through a square that blocks movement there is no charge. The line is determined before the charge even starts. That thing/person is there. Your ability to jump over it does not change that.
edit:As to jumping over the pit there is a hole there. Deleted a line with no proof.
My monk in one of the games that I am in can clear a 30' long jump by rolling a 1 (acro skill of 32). Does a 20' chasm block his movement?
I would say yes.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).
A chasm should qualify as an obstacle to be overcome.
A chasm should qualify as an obstacle to be overcome.
Agreed. There is nothing to stop you from jumping over the chasm and attacking, you can even fluff this as a flying kick. However, this would not constitute a charge in PF mechanics.
Melees being harassed by terrain is not a factor when deciding what a rule is. The rule works the way it works. There are uses for acrobatics besides tumbling they just don't apply to charges.
You think the raw is clear as crystal. I do not.
Actually are you are ignoring RAW. You like everyone else has no answer for my "line" post.
There is still the wording saying the line that is drawn to the target must be unblocked. Even if you can jump over something without leaving your square that line was still cut off.
This was answered. I
I don't consider a pit to be blocking your path, or caltrops, or a drop off of a cliff. <----------
your argument is that the path is blocked. I say that its not.
A blocked path is defined differently than slowed movement.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles)
They're two different clauses. Do you have a clear path? Clear path is not defined. I consider this to be foes and barricades, not caltrops because
--- and nothing can hinder your movement is a different clause. If there are caltrops, and you leap over them, they are not hindering your movement.
If the line is passing through a square that blocks movement there is no charge.
If you jump the terrain it does not block movement.
The line is determined before the charge even starts. That thing/person is there. Your ability to jump over it does not change that.
The raw however is not that the line must have no movement hindering squares in it. The raw is that nothing can block YOUR movement. Its relative to the character. A druid can charge through brush for example.
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An Stone oracle with earth-glide and Crystal sight wants to attack someone from below. (say that he is at least 10th level to be able to see the minimum charge distance). Can they then charge through the ground at a target?
Per your reading wraith, they would not, since the ground is normally a "difficult terrain or obstacle". But the oracle can see the target with crystal sight, and that ground is not an obstacle to the oracle at that time due to earth glide.
If the oracle can charge, what changes to make it so that the monk cannot.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).
They're two different clauses...
These are not two different clauses. The use of the word AND joins them together into one clause.
The raw however is not that the line must have no movement hindering squares in it. The raw is that nothing can block YOUR movement. Its relative to the character. A druid can charge through brush for example.
So you're saying something IS blocking/hindering your movement - that's why you have to JUMP in the first place. You have to JUMP, that's relative to you.
This is not the case for a druid who can move freely through brush and is not a great example for you to draw a parallel from. It's like saying a flying creature can fly over the chasm so it doesn't block my movement.
Per your reading wraith, they would not, since the ground is normally a "difficult terrain or obstacle". But the oracle can see the target with crystal sight, and that ground is not an obstacle to the oracle at that time due to earth glide.
If the oracle can charge, what changes to make it so that the monk cannot.
Let's take a look at Earth Glide...
Earth Glide (Su):
Let's see, you have an ability that lets you move at your base speed through earth. That's kind of like ignoring the difficult terrain, so you would not be impeded by the terrain anymore - if you wanted to charge through the earth.
It's like if you gave your monk the ability to fly, the chasm doesn't matter anymore does it?
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).
They're two different clauses...
These are not two different clauses. The use of the word AND joins them together into one clause.
No, if they were the same clause there would be no reason for the and. What that means is that a clear path is not the same as having nothing HINDER your movement. Otherwise the sentence would read like "you must have an orange and you must have an orange." With and there it reads "you must have an apple AND you must have an orange" as opposed to or.
So you're saying something IS blocking/hindering your movement - that's why you have to JUMP in the first place. You have to JUMP, that's relative to you.Now now, no conflating blocking and hindering into the same clause if you're going to try to make an argument for an internal inconsistency.
Is the square BLOCKED by caltrops. No. caltrops don't BLOCK anything.
Is your movement slowed by the caltrops? If you make your jump check your movement doesn't slow one whit.
This is not the case for a druid who can move freely through brush and is not a great example for you to draw a parallel from. It's like saying a flying creature can fly over the chasm so it doesn't block my movement.Why does a caltrop block movement for a creature who can jump 10 feet?