Just a quick question really;
For my Demon Hunting Half-Elf, I've gone with the traits Treerazer's Bane, Asmodean Demon Hunter, A Shining Beacon and Demon Slayer.
My question is, I know traits aren't meant to stack, but when you're focusing in something in particular (such as killing and hunting Demons), would Treerazer's Bane and A Shining Beacon stack, as Treerazer's Bane gives +2 damage to demons, where as A Shining Beacon gives your weapons crit modifier as damage to demons ONLY ON a critical hit.
I'm thinking they do as they both function differently, but a friend who usually DM's and is instead playing in a game with me soon, reckons it won't.
To me, it makes sense as it's not giving a huge advantage against demons, and a character who's been studying ways on how to kill demons for years would have this kind of ability (in my opinion), and all of the trait's have been okayed by the DM as they all go with my back story nicely.
I'd just like to know personally so I don't have to worry about it when it comes to determining my damage output.
Thanks a lot. :)
Just on a side note, but are you playing with a houserule for traits? The standard rules only give you two traits, not four.
For my Demon Hunting Half-Elf, I've gone with the traits Treerazer's Bane, Asmodean Demon Hunter, A Shining Beacon and Demon Slayer.
I'm going to skip the rest of your post, because this is weird enough.
Unless you're playing a demon-hunting half-elf from Kyonin (a place where half-elves are usually not tolerated except in a few spots) who is somehow both a follower of Iomedae AND Asmodeus and was a part of the Mendevian Crusades even though he really hates Treerazer, that collection of traits makes no sense.
Plus, even if you manage to juggle that mess to make it other than shameless cherry picking, you can only have one Religion trait (that means either Asmodean Demon Hunter OR Shining Beacon), plus Treerazer's Bane is regional for Kyonin's citizens and Demon Slayer is reserved for members of the Mendevian Crusaders.
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Just on a side note, but are you playing with a houserule for traits? The standard rules only give you two traits, not four.
Well it's more that 2 is the suggested amount. The rule is however many the GM thinks the PC's should get. Could be 0, could be 4.
When you create your character for a campaign, ask your GM how many traits you can select. In most cases, a new PC should gain two traits, effectively gaining what amounts to a bonus feat at character creation. Some GMs may wish to adjust this number somewhat, depending upon their style of play; you may only be able to pick one trait, or your GM might allow three or more. Even if your GM normally doesn't allow bonus traits, you might still be able to pick up some with the Additional Traits feat.
Unless you're playing a demon-hunting half-elf from Kyonin (a place where half-elves are usually not tolerated except in a few spots) who is somehow both a follower of Iomedae AND Asmodeus and was a part of the Mendevian Crusades even though he really hates Treerazer, that collection of traits makes no sense.
Just slap other names on the traits, build a good storyline around it, tweak the requirements (or drop the traits that won't fit rule-wise), convince your DM and off you go.
I mean, only because it's called Asmodean Demon Hunter it doesn't have to be only for Asmodeans. Call it Flowerloving Demon Hunter and all is fine.Also, the DM already approved of it. It fits with the backstory.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Unless you're playing a demon-hunting half-elf from Kyonin (a place where half-elves are usually not tolerated except in a few spots) who is somehow both a follower of Iomedae AND Asmodeus and was a part of the Mendevian Crusades even though he really hates Treerazer, that collection of traits makes no sense.Just slap other names on the traits, build a good storyline around it, tweak the requirements (or drop the traits that won't fit rule-wise), convince your DM and off you go.
I mean, only because it's called Asmodean Demon Hunter it doesn't have to be only for Asmodeans. Call it Flowerloving Demon Hunter and all is fine.Also, the DM already approved of it. It fits with the backstory.
Setting the flavor stuff aside, KaeYoss also pointed out that you cannot take more than one trait from a given category. Also in general, traits do not stack (that's stated explicitly).
For my Demon Hunting Half-Elf, I've gone with the traits Treerazer's Bane, Asmodean Demon Hunter, A Shining Beacon and Demon Slayer.
I'm going to skip the rest of your post, because this is weird enough.
Unless you're playing a demon-hunting half-elf from Kyonin (a place where half-elves are usually not tolerated except in a few spots) who is somehow both a follower of Iomedae AND Asmodeus and was a part of the Mendevian Crusades even though he really hates Treerazer, that collection of traits makes no sense.
Plus, even if you manage to juggle that mess to make it other than shameless cherry picking, you can only have one Religion trait (that means either Asmodean Demon Hunter OR Shining Beacon), plus Treerazer's Bane is regional for Kyonin's citizens and Demon Slayer is reserved for members of the Mendevian Crusaders.
Like I said, it goes with my history. I'd rather not type the whole lot out BUT the Asmodean Demon Hunter trait says you don't need to follow him, only have grown up in his church (or something similar), so it made sense.
In short:
My character > Born into an elf through a ritual as Asmodeus' son > Born as a Half-Elf > Treated like dirt > Was forced to grow up in the church of Asmodeus > Didn't get a chance to ever make friends or socialist > Hates Asmodeus and all who follow > Hates Demons as a result > Mother died > Mother was buried in Kyonin > Iomedae spoke to him telepathically > He now follows Iomedae when before he followed NO religion.
He's cold hearted to others, anti-social and uncaring, but Neutral Good as deep down he's a good guy. He's just had it tough. The only person who loved him was his dead mother, and I'm assuming due to everything, the Elves would have sympathised mainly and allowed for him to stay in Kyonin for a while to respect his mothers grave.
That saves a lot of typing.
My argument with the rule is you may be dealing x damage to demons, but one trait allows you to do it with EVERY hit, and the other is specifically only for criticals, so if I were DM'ing, personally I'd allow it.
As for the traits - I've taken additional traits, hence why I have four and not two. ;)
Quick edit: Basically I'm using what the traits do for the theme, not how characters have historically gone about using them. I personally have no idea on what even happened during the Mendev Crusades. The names of the traits and abilities are where the flavour is coming from. :)
I thought he could have been a crusader just to prove his hatred towards demons, but regarding the faith and religion traits; They're labelled as two separate things (faith and religion) which is why I chose them. Although you could argue that they're both the same thing.
Here's how I'd rule it, based on the traits. Note, I don't have access to the traits, so this is going to be very general.
Option 1 : Trait A is Give +2 Trait Bonus to Damage vs Demons. Trait B is Give +2 Trait Bonus to Damage vs Demons, but only when you crit. The two bonuses are the same, and thus they don't stack. One is simply having a more limited trigger than the other.
Option 2 : Trait A is Give +2 Trait Bonus to Damage vs Demons. Trait B is Give a +1 Trait Bonus to Damage Multiplier on a Crit vs Demons. These two would stack, as one is a bonus to base damage and the other is a bonus to Crit Multiplier, which are two different animals.
Option 3 : Trait A is Give a +2 Trait Bonus to Damage vs Demons. Trait B is Give a +2 Trait Bonus to Damage vs Evil Outsiders. They don't stack. Reason is, Demon Bane and Evil Bane don't stack against the same creature (like how Elf Bane and Human bane don't stack against a half-elf).
It seems pretty simple. Trait bonuses don't stack.
It seems pretty simple. Trait bonuses don't stack.
Trait bonuses to the same thing don't stack, yes. Trait bonuses to related things can and do stack. See my 'option 2' up above.
Just to clarify your statement, not saying it's wrong per se. Just not precise enough for my OCD. :P
In short:My character > Born into an elf through a ritual as Asmodeus' son > Born as a Half-Elf > Treated like dirt > Was forced to grow up in the church of Asmodeus > Didn't get a chance to ever make friends or socialist > Hates Asmodeus and all who follow > Hates Demons as a result > Mother died > Mother was buried in Kyonin > Iomedae spoke to him telepathically > He now follows Iomedae when before he followed NO religion.
If he hates Asmodeus and all who follow him then he should hate DEVILS not DEMONS. Since Asmodeus is at war with Demons he should probably like them, sort of a my enemies enemy is my friend.
Asmodeus is a DEVIL not a DEMON, big difference.
Yep, I know there's a difference, but how likely are you to find a Devil? Nowhere near as likely as you are to find a Demon.
A demon, being a devil spawn (from real life mythology). As far as I know Devil's control demons to do their bidding, therefore the hunt is on against all demons.
I couldn't really focus on both, as my guy would suck due to doing too many things at once, and seeing as the Asmodean followers are probably going to be demons, that's what I chose. They hang around. :)
Besides, there really aren't that many traits vs Devils. I had a look, and was a little disappointed. :/
MDT: So I am right in thinking that yes they do stack, as they both do two different things? They work differently, which is why I purposely chose them, and seeing as how dedicated I am to this character, I literally went through EVERY SINGLE TRAIT IN EXISTENCE.
It was very time consuming, but still, now there are more traits no doubt, with the upcoming release of Ultimate Combat and the Jade Regent campaign setting.
Still, does that also mean if I were to use the Rangers Bane for Evil Outsiders and then get an Evil Outsider Bane weapon and use Treerazer's Bane, then none of them would stack?
It's really annoying if it doesn't, as it would prevent you from truly focusing in destroying one creature.
I was going to go with a Holy, Axiomatic, Shocking Burst, Bane Falcata, just for immense damage, but if Bane doesn't stack (even though one is from Trait, one is from Class and one is from Weapon), that'll put an end to that plan. ¬_¬
CaptainCortez,
I was going to go with a Holy, Axiomatic, Shocking Burst, Bane Falcata, just for immense damage, but if Bane doesn't stack (even though one is from Trait, one is from Class and one is from Weapon), that'll put an end to that plan. ¬_¬
I am lost for words...
CaptainCortez,
I was going to go with a Holy, Axiomatic, Shocking Burst, Bane Falcata, just for immense damage, but if Bane doesn't stack (even though one is from Trait, one is from Class and one is from Weapon), that'll put an end to that plan. ¬_¬I am lost for words...
I guess people haven't heard of focusing on one single type of enemy before? :/
In real life, if you were to study anatomy to find weaknesses on other human beings, you'd know where to deal more damage, and if you were to train as a martial artist, you'd also know other ways to deal additional damage to your target. This is why it should stack in my opinion. You can still do multiple things, otherwise focusing on a single enemy type in game would be pointless, as you'd only be dealing what? An additional 2 damage. Big deal. I may as well not focus on anything, and be as bland as the rest by just putting my strength up to damage everything the same.
There is no flavour.
Anyway, how you're lost I don't know. You can add all of those bonuses onto a weapon, and it will deal all of that damage to the right creature type. :/
Yep, I know there's a difference, but how likely are you to find a Devil? Nowhere near as likely as you are to find a Demon.
A demon, being a devil spawn (from real life mythology). As far as I know Devil's control demons to do their bidding, therefore the hunt is on against all demons.
I couldn't really focus on both, as my guy would suck due to doing too many things at once, and seeing as the Asmodean followers are probably going to be demons, that's what I chose. They hang around. :)
Based on a real life mythology not all real life mythologies and honestly the phrase 'real life mythology' is quite the juxtaposition in and of itself.
Also just so you know -- that's not how it works in pathfinder -- Devils and Demons hate each other, and are not related. Devils are lawful evil, and Demons are chaotic evil, they come from different planes of existence and those that work with devils won't work with demons and the reverse is generally true too.
MDT: So I am right in thinking that yes they do stack, as they both do two different things? They work differently, which is why I purposely chose them, and seeing as how dedicated I am to this character, I literally went through EVERY SINGLE TRAIT IN EXISTENCE.
Same bonus types don't stack to the same thing. In this case it's all bonuses to damage of the trait type -- as such you can only have one trait bonus to damage at a time even if there is a different reason each could be activated.
Still, does that also mean if I were to use the Rangers Bane for Evil Outsiders and then get an Evil Outsider Bane weapon and use Treerazer's Bane, then none of them would stack?
Treerazor's Bane is a trait bonus, the bonus from a ranger's favored enemy for Evil Outsiders is a different type of bonus, and an Evil Outsider Bane weapon is yet a third type of bonus. Since each bonus is a different type they all stack.
However each of the traits presented provides a trait type bonus -- as such they won't stack on the same thing (damage). If you had a trait that gave a bonus to save throws, one that gave a bonus to initiative and one that gave a bonus to damage you would be fine -- but having three traits that all give a bonus to damage that all state the type of bonus is trait means that they don't stack.
Based on a real life mythology not all real life mythologies and honestly the phrase 'real life mythology' is quite the juxtaposition in and of itself.
Also just so you know -- that's not how it works in pathfinder -- Devils and Demons hate each other, and are not related. Devils are lawful evil, and Demons are chaotic evil, they come from different planes of existence and those that work with devils won't work with demons and the reverse is generally true too.
Ah, okay. I assumed it would be the same as I was told off once for comparing Pathfinder to computer games, so I thought with it being more compared to reality, the same sort of myth's would apply.
I guess I now have to find some traits to hunt Devils instead then. Ah, such a pain.
However each of the traits presented provides a trait type bonus -- as such they won't stack on the same thing (damage). If you had a trait that gave a bonus to save throws, one that gave a bonus to initiative and one that gave a bonus to damage you would be fine -- but having three traits that all give a bonus to damage that all state the type of bonus is trait means that they don't stack.
Bah, well that sucks. Thanks for clearing it up. It's just a shame the outcome is so poor. It seems there's little point on focusing on one enemy, as you really won't be that effective against them without stacking damage of any kind.
I guess the game wasn't built for my kind of imagination. :/
However each of the traits presented provides a trait type bonus -- as such they won't stack on the same thing (damage). If you had a trait that gave a bonus to save throws, one that gave a bonus to initiative and one that gave a bonus to damage you would be fine -- but having three traits that all give a bonus to damage that all state the type of bonus is trait means that they don't stack.Bah, well that sucks. Thanks for clearing it up. It's just a shame the outcome is so poor. It seems there's little point on focusing on one enemy, as you really won't be that effective against them without stacking damage of any kind.
I guess the game wasn't built for my kind of imagination. :/
You obviously were not reading what I wrote:
Treerazor's Bane is a trait bonus, the bonus from a ranger's favored enemy for Evil Outsiders is a different type of bonus, and an Evil Outsider Bane weapon is yet a third type of bonus. Since each bonus is a different type they all stack.
Still, does that also mean if I were to use the Rangers Bane for Evil Outsiders and then get an Evil Outsider Bane weapon and use Treerazer's Bane, then none of them would stack?
The traits that you asked about will not stack as they are the same bonus type.
The class feature, weapon and trait you asked about will stack as they are different bonus types.
You obviously were not reading what I wrote
I read what you said and thanked you. I was more referring to the damage related traits.
Also, just checked and there's absolutely nothing to the same effect of fighting Devils, so I'm better off changing my story a little and sticking with the Demon Hunter routine.
I'm really surprised there aren't any traits that are for Devil Hunters, seeing as Devils are so different to Demons.
Ah well.
That makes more sense then -- The problem would be people trying to have someone cast a divine bull's strength on them, and an arcane bull's strength on them and have a belt of strength +4 and claiming they all stack (which would provide a +12 to strength).
This doesn't work since each source (the arcane spell, the divine spell, and the belt) all provide the same bonus type to strength (enhancement is the type).
Basically put it calls for a bit more creativity rather than spamming the same thing over and over.
Honestly though if you want a 'devil hunter' trait I would suggest simply renaming "Asmodean Demon Hunter" to "Andoran Devil Hunter" and changing the word 'demon' to 'devil' in the trait.
That makes more sense then -- The problem would be people trying to have someone cast a divine bull's strength on them, and an arcane bull's strength on them and have a belt of strength +4 and claiming they all stack (which would provide a +12 to strength).
This doesn't work since each source (the arcane spell, the divine spell, and the belt) all provide the same bonus type to strength (enhancement is the type).
Basically put it calls for a bit more creativity rather than spamming the same thing over and over.
Honestly though if you want a 'devil hunter' trait I would suggest simply renaming "Asmodean Demon Hunter" to "Andoran Devil Hunter" and changing the word 'demon' to 'devil' in the trait.
Would most GM's allow that?
If I can change the name, maybe I could keep the three traits that do work together (Treerazer's Bane, Demon Slayer and Asmodean Demon Hunter), and rename them so they work on Devil's instead?
So:
Treerazer's Bane would become Infernal Bane.
~ It applies in the same way, but only for Devil's.
Demon Slayer would become Devil Slayer.
~ Just because it makes sense.
Asmodean Demon Hunter would become Asmodean Devil Hunter.
~ Due to the fact being born the son of Asmodeus would make him hate his father, and all who ally with him.
Now to get permission from the GM, and the last trait could probably be a campaign trait like they originally wanted me to have.
Well the last one doesn't work -- Asmodeus is a God of Devils so he's not going to promote killing them. Andoran is the country of "freedom" right beside Chelaxia that hates devils though so an "Andoran Devil Hunter" makes more sense in campaign context.
However the problem is while the names have changed the bonus types haven't as such they still don't stack. I would suggest just having one trait to increase damage and then take a trait that helps your save throws and one that improves your AC instead of simply concentrating on damage.
After all you can't deal damage if you are dead from being hit or paralyzed by a spell.
Well the last one doesn't work -- Asmodeus is a God of Devils so he's not going to promote killing them. Andoran is the country of "freedom" right beside Chelaxia that hates devils though so an "Andoran Devil Hunter" makes more sense in campaign context.
However the problem is while the names have changed the bonus types haven't as such they still don't stack. I would suggest just having one trait to increase damage and then take a trait that helps your save throws and one that improves your AC instead of simply concentrating on damage.
After all you can't deal damage if you are dead from being hit or paralyzed by a spell.
In that case, Chelaxian Devil Hunter would fit better as his current residence is Cheliax.
I removed the trait that I was trying to stack damage with by the way, so after my Demon to Devil edits, here's what the traits will do:
Treerazer's Bane
Before: You gain a +2 trait bonus on weapon damage against demons, evil fey, and plants and animals corrupted by evil.
Infernal Bane
After: You gain a +2 trait bonus on weapon damage against Devils.
Asmodean Demon Hunter
Before: You gain a +3 trait bonus on Knowledge (planes) checks about demons and a +2 trait bonus on Will saves against mind-affecting spells and effects from demons.
Chelaxian Devil Hunter
After: You gain a +3 trait bonus on Knowledge (planes) checks about Devils and a +2 trait bonus on Will saves against mind-affecting spells and effects from Devils.
Demon Slayer
Before: You can attempt a Knowledge (planes) check to find a demon’s weak spot. (DC 10 + the demon’s CR). If you succeed, you gain a +3 trait bonus on rolls to confirm critical hits against that demon until the end of the battle. This effect only works on demons.
Devil Slayer
After: You can attempt a Knowledge (planes) check to find a Devils weak spot. (DC 10 + the Devils CR). If you succeed, you gain a +3 trait bonus on rolls to confirm critical hits against that Devil until the end of the battle. This effect only works on Devils.
Now I have no traits that try to stack damage, and instead serve as ways that work effectively against one creature type.
Thanks a lot. :)
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The additional damage provided by A Shing Beacon is not typed, even though traits that add a bonus to damage usually state it as a trait bonus.
Thus, by RAW, it stacks with any trait bonus to damage. In fact it stacks with any bonus to damage, as untyped bonuses always do.
However, it is generally understood that if two traits provide the same benefit (here additional damage), they do not stack.
Conclusion : check with your GM ;-)
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I think there is a feat that grants two more traits. I think it's one of those that has to be taken at first level and it is still subject to the category restriction that no more than one trait per category be taken, including the first two.
Yeah, it's called Additional Traits. No where is it said that you have to take it at first level though, but your correct about it not letting you break the one trait per category rule.
Additional Traits
You have more traits than normal.
Benefit: You gain two character traits of your choice (see Chapter 8). These traits must be chosen from different lists, and cannot be chosen from lists from which you have already selected a character trait. You must meet any additional qualifications for the character traits you choose.
They have also been toying with them as a major quest reward or something of the like in some of the games around here to a nice degree of success.
The additional damage provided by A Shing Beacon is not typed, even though traits that add a bonus to damage usually state it as a trait bonus.
Thus, by RAW, it stacks with any trait bonus to damage. In fact it stacks with any bonus to damage, as untyped bonuses always do.
However, it is generally understood that if two traits provide the same benefit (here additional damage), they do not stack.
Conclusion : check with your GM ;-)
That's really odd. Maybe it was meant for stacking then?
Still, I won't be using it now (unfortunately) as I've been told I have to have one campaign trait and as I'll be using him in Serpent's Skull, I'm going with "Get The Cargo Through". Still, no idea what kind of Cargo I should be looking after when my character has no real ties to anything.....and one of the other players have been looking through this thread, so I can't ask. *shifty eyes at Faelar Braegen*
In that case, Chelaxian Devil Hunter would fit better as his current residence is Cheliax.
It actually wouldn't; the worship Asmodeus is commonplace and accepted in Cheliax, with even the current monarch paying him tribute. As such, the hunting of his more otherworldly followers is uncommon.
Yep, I know there's a difference, but how likely are you to find a Devil? Nowhere near as likely as you are to find a Demon.
Soooo...you want to take it against Demons to make it more convenient for your character because you won't use it as much against Devils.
That's a little suspect right there.
So, for that alone I say no stacking.
And traits aren't supposed to stack. So, no stacking.
And if its a fan-created trait...no stacking.
But your GM may differ. (But the whole "I want to fight demons instead of devils so change the trait" thing is still a bit m****kin to me.)
In that case, Chelaxian Devil Hunter would fit better as his current residence is Cheliax.It actually wouldn't; the worship Asmodeus is commonplace and accepted in Cheliax, with even the current monarch paying him tribute. As such, the hunting of his more otherworldly followers is uncommon.
Yea, but that's where naming it Chelaxian instead of Asmodean Devil Hunter comes in. :p
He wouldn't be working for Asmodeus whilst killing Devils (as he hates Asmodeus, and what a contradiction that would be!). Instead, he should get his fame from being quite possibly the only Devil Hunter in Cheliax. That would take guts, and that is my goal for him to achieve by the end of the game (providing he survives that long). ;)
The Chelaxian part is simply to say where his current residence is. I mean come on, who would expect a Devil Hunter to live inside a Devil controlled City? It's the perfect setup.
Just as a final example, if his home was Kyonin, he'd be the Kyonin Devil Hunter, and if it were to be Sandpoint, he'd be the Sandpoint Devil Hunter. He lives in Cheliax, so that's what I'm renaming it to. :)
@Gigglestick: No. He was originally intended to solely be a Demon Hunter, so it would have made sense. However, after being told my back story contradicts itself, I'm changing it to focus on Devil Hunting as it fits in with my character back story better.
It's funny really. I began the concept as a Demon Hunter, and after having the Demon and Devil relationship explained to me, ended up making him a Devil Hunter.
I'm not actually doing these things to benefit me in any way (game wise) as the concept of Devil Hunter may prove to be irrelevant. I don't know what kind of creatures will be in Serpent's Skull, so I might be doing it all in vain. It's a risk, but one I'm willing to take.
The players handbook itself mentioned ruins and from my previous gaming experiences ruins usually house demons, sometimes devils and usually the undead.
There is no metagaming when for one, you've not even begun the campaign, and secondly you don't know what kind of creatures to expect.
It's a concept I've been working on, HOPING for the best. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Its mentioned in an FAQ somewhere, but its been explicitly stated that Traits never stack. The rational partly being that traits are meant to diversify your character not focus them.
I'll see if I can find the quote and post ...
Many traits grant a new type of bonus: a “trait” bonus. Trait bonuses do not stack—they’re intended to give you a slight edge over the non-PCs of the world, not a secret backdoor way to focus all your traits on one type of bonus to gain an unseemly advantage over the rules. It’s certainly possible, for example, that some- where down the line, a “Courageous” trait might be on the list of dwarf race traits, but just because this trait’s on the dwarf race traits list and the basic combat traits list doesn’t mean you’re any more brave if you choose both than if you choose only one.
Yea, thanks Gully. The outcome is, whether it's untyped or not, most people feel it shouldn't stack (even though the untyped trait contradicts the RAW, to suggest it does) so I won't be using it.
Thanks guys. I know some of you are pretty hostile towards what I was asking, but I need to know these things to understand the game better, so it's always best to ask.
Have a great week guys. :)