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I searched the Rules boards and found an answer to my other RoSS question, but not to this one:
How do Rings of Spell Storing (or similar Ioun Stones) interact with cantrips? I mean, if it can store up to 3 (or whatever) levels of spells, well...
1+2+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0... etc still comes out to 3. So does that mean I can just dump every cantrip I can get my hands on into any given RoSS?
And if so, can I just store each cantrip once and cast them limitlessly (just like how casting cantrips normally is unlimited)?
On the one hand, I can't find any reference to cantrips in the item description, so logically it seems we would revert to using math, which means as many 0-level spells as you want.
On the other hand, HOLY CRAP EVERY CANTRIP?!? ZOMG OP!!1!
On the other other hand, thousands of gp for a bunch of cantrips, most of which you won't even use? Meh, w/e.
So... thoughts? Or better yet, text?
cantrips generally count as 1/2 of a spell level for such purposes. Given the nature of the item I'd say you can store cantrips, but once "cast" they're gone and have to be recharged as with a spell of any other level.
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I would go with one of the following two.
1. Cantrips aren't proper spells and as such can't be put into a ring.
2. Spellstoring rings essentially store castings of spells. Allow a cantrip, count it as 1/2 (or 1) of a first level spell and allow it as one use only from the ring.
I appreciate the thought in your response. Both sound like very reasonable houserules. However, I'm looking for a "by the book" answer. I (so far) only play in PFS, and both of your solutions require too much houseruling to be viable PFS options.
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What support do you have for option #1, though? It actually goes contrary to the rules, which make no distinction about "proper" spells and defines cantrips as spells. So option #1 would require actually materially changing the rules.
Option #2 is more reasonable, but then how do you decide whether it's half, 1, or whatever else? It would be completely arbitrary.
As far as counting as zero, I can't think of anything in the rules to define 0-level spells as anything but 0-level spells.
The only thing I can think of that might, by RAW, limit the use of cantrips in a Ring of Spell Storing is this: every spellcasting class that can cast cantrips has a class feature (usually called "cantrips" or "orisons") that explicitly states their ability to cast 0-level spells at will. It's possible, unless there's a FAQ or similar that I missed, that the ability to cast them at will is a part of those class abilities rather than being intrinsic to 0-level spells. If that turns out to be the case, then theoretically you could put every cantrip into the ring, but then only cast each one once and need to reload it.
I can't think of anything else in the rules to relate to this. Anyone got anything?
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I know as well as anyone that the rules are incomplete and at times unclear. I agree that this means sometimes interpretations have to be made.
However, to state that 0-level spells are not spells is not an interpretation, it is a contradiction of rules that DO exist. It's not like the CRB fails to tell us whether or not 0-level spells are spells and we have to fill in the blank ourselves. Big difference there.
And lest this thread derail into a discussion of when and where GM fiat is appropriate, let me refocus onto the issue at hand:
Rings of Spell Storing store up to X levels worth of spells. Mathematically, this means any number of 0-level spells could be stored in them. Is there any written rule, FAQ, or developer forum post that states or reasonably implies otherwise?
Anyone who posts, please answer that question. Thank you.
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I hope you're not ending the discussion on poor terms. I have nothing against you personally.
And regarding this:
If you're a GM, you'll eventually learn that what I describe is standard operating procedure for a Judge.
Please understand that there's a difference between "this is not situation X" and "situation X does not exist". I asserted the former regarding a single topic, while your responses sound like you think I asserted the latter. Perhaps that misunderstanding could account for your frustration? If I were in your shoes and someone seemed to think that GMs shouldn't need to be making judgment calls for anything, I'd be a bit bewildered and irritated as well.
cantrips generally count as 1/2 of a spell level for such purposes. Given the nature of the item I'd say you can store cantrips, but once "cast" they're gone and have to be recharged as with a spell of any other level.
2. Spellstoring rings essentially store castings of spells. Allow a cantrip, count it as 1/2 (or 1) of a first level spell and allow it as one use only from the ring.
This. Specifically, cantrips are designated several times in the Core as being worth 1/2 a level, particularly when dealing with scrolls, spellbooks, potions, and wands. The plainest example is simply the math of crafting: All cantrip wands/potions/scrolls are 1/2 the cost of level 1 spells and the equation is minCL*SpellLevel*(base cost multiplier). Hence, a scroll with 25gp base cost for level 1 has a cost of 12.5gp for a cantrip, which you would expect with a minimum CL of 1 for both and the same base cost multiplier of 25gp. Additionally, cantrips are considered a 1/2 level spell for the purposes of hiring a spellcaster (Goods and Services section of Equipment).
It is reasonable to infer that, in all instances, 1/2 level is the RAI baseline for cantrips/orisons in terms of spell levels on items.
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cantrips generally count as 1/2 of a spell level for such purposes. Given the nature of the item I'd say you can store cantrips, but once "cast" they're gone and have to be recharged as with a spell of any other level.
Wow, I'm sorry, I totally missed your post until Serisan quoted it! Tiny browser windows shaft concise posters, I guess. :P
Now then, to your point: can you point me to where it says that 0-level spells are treated as half? Thanks.
cantrips generally count as 1/2 of a spell level for such purposes. Given the nature of the item I'd say you can store cantrips, but once "cast" they're gone and have to be recharged as with a spell of any other level.Wow, I'm sorry, I totally missed your post until Serisan quoted it! Tiny browser windows shaft concise posters, I guess. :P
Now then, to your point: can you point me to where it says that 0-level spells are treated as half? Thanks.
I know it says it under magic item creation in the PHB
Quoter PHB; "0-Level Spells : When multiplying spell levels to determine value, 0-level spells should be treated as 1/2 level." End quote
I think it says it elsewhere, but the above scentence is probably sufficient precedent where items are involved.
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Hm...
Is there any such reference that doesn't involve determining price? I mean, we wouldn't want there to be free potions due to multiplying by zero, hence the pricing exception. Is there any such stipulation where gold is not involved? Any examples of other items that handle it that way, for instance?
Hm...
Is there any such reference that doesn't involve determining price? I mean, we wouldn't want there to be free potions due to multiplying by zero, hence the pricing exception. Is there any such stipulation where gold is not involved? Any examples of other items that handle it that way, for instance?
ok, after very little research I have two schools of thought.
1) The ring is based on Imbue with spell ability which makes no mention of cantrips. (see spell in spoiler below) It specifically says first or second level spells. That indicates to me that you can't imbue cantrip/Orizons. However, the item clearly states that it doesn't exactly work like the spell.2) Using the item creation thing as one precedent and Mnemonic enhancer as the other. That would use 0 level spells as 1/2 level for the purposes of such mechanics. Expended as normal since the ring bearer doesn't have the "cantrip" or "Orizon" class feature. Well, that't not exactly why, but those features are the only thing that makes the 0 level spells @ will, Magic items not withstanding.
Imbue with Spell Ability
School evocation; Level cleric 4
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, DF
Range touch
Target creature touched; see text
Duration permanent until discharged (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
You transfer some of your currently prepared spells, and the ability to cast them, to another creature. Only a creature with an Intelligence score of at least 5 and a Wisdom score of at least 9 can receive this boon. Only cleric spells from the schools of abjuration, divination, and conjuration (healing) can be transferred. The number and level of spells that the subject can be granted depends on its Hit Dice; even multiple castings of imbue with spell ability can't exceed this limit.
HD of Recipient Spells Imbued
2 or lower One 1st-level spell
3–4 One or two 1st-level spells
5 or higher One or two 1st-level spells and one 2nd-level spell
The transferred spell's variable characteristics (range, duration, area, and the like) function according to your level, not the level of the recipient.
Once you cast imbue with spell ability, you cannot prepare a new 4th-level spell to replace it until the recipient uses the imbued spells or is slain, or until you dismiss the imbue with spell ability spell. In the meantime, you remain responsible to your deity or your principles for the use to which the spell is put. If the number of 4th-level spells you can cast decreases, and that number drops below your current number of active imbue with spell ability spells, the more recently cast imbued spells are dispelled.
To cast a spell with a verbal component, the subject must be able to speak. To cast a spell with a somatic component, it must be able to move freely. To cast a spell with a material component or focus, it must have the materials or focus.
School transmutation; Level wizard 4
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, M (a piece of string, and ink consisting of squid secretion mixed with black dragon's blood), F (an ivory plaque worth 50 gp)
Range personal
Target you
Duration instantaneous
Casting this spell allows you to prepare additional spells or retain spells recently cast. Pick one of these two versions when the spell is cast.
Prepare : You prepare up to three additional levels of spells. A cantrip counts as 1/2 level for this purpose. You prepare and cast these spells normally.
Retain : You retain any spell of 3rd level or lower that you had cast up to 1 round before you started casting the mnemonic enhancer . This restores the previously cast spell to your mind.
In either event, the spell or spells prepared or retained fade after 24 hours (if not cast).
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Hm...
Is there any such reference that doesn't involve determining price? I mean, we wouldn't want there to be free potions due to multiplying by zero, hence the pricing exception. Is there any such stipulation where gold is not involved? Any examples of other items that handle it that way, for instance?
ok, after very little research I have two schools of thought.
1) The ring is based on Imbue with spell ability which makes no mention of cantrips. (see spell in spoiler below) It specifically says first or second level spells. That indicates to me that you can't imbue cantrip/Orizons. However, the item clearly states that it doesn't exactly work like the spell.2) Using the item creation thing as one precedent and Mnemonic enhancer as the other. That would use 0 level spells as 1/2 level for the purposes of such mechanics. Expended as normal since the ring bearer doesn't have the "cantrip" or "Orizon" class feature. Well, that't not exactly why, but those features are the only thing that makes the 0 level spells @ will, Magic items not withstanding.
** spoiler omitted **...
Now that's the kind of response I was looking for! Thank you!
Both of those seem much more compelling as precedents than scroll/potion pricing or "cantrips aren't really spells". Between the two, the Imbue w/ Spell seems like a more appropriate comparison. Still seems fuzzy overall, but nice to know there's something to base it on.
Thanks, TCG!
Rings of Spell Storing store up to X levels worth of spells. Mathematically, this means any number of 0-level spells could be stored in them. Is there any written rule, FAQ, or developer forum post that states or reasonably implies otherwise?
Actually, mathematically you can store 0 number of 0-level spells in any Ring of Spell Storing. The method by which you would determine how many spells of any given level can be put into a Ring of Spell Storing is to take the total storable levels and divide by the level of the spells you're attempting to store.
Let's say you have a Ring of Spell Storing +5 (I'm not totally up on what possibilities are available and don't have my book in front of me, so just humor me if this is an illegal item.) In this case, your determining math would be this:
# of storable spells = 5 (max storable levels) / 0 (level of spells stored)
This would result in attempting to divide by zero, which you cannot do.
I searched the Rules boards and found an answer to my other RoSS question, but not to this one:
How do Rings of Spell Storing (or similar Ioun Stones) interact with cantrips? I mean, if it can store up to 3 (or whatever) levels of spells, well...
1+2+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0... etc still comes out to 3. So does that mean I can just dump every cantrip I can get my hands on into any given RoSS?
And if so, can I just store each cantrip once and cast them limitlessly (just like how casting cantrips normally is unlimited)?
On the one hand, I can't find any reference to cantrips in the item description, so logically it seems we would revert to using math, which means as many 0-level spells as you want.
On the other hand, HOLY CRAP EVERY CANTRIP?!? ZOMG OP!!1!
On the other other hand, thousands of gp for a bunch of cantrips, most of which you won't even use? Meh, w/e.
So... thoughts? Or better yet, text?
Just because you can cast a cantrip infinitely (theoretically) into a ring of spell storing, doesn't mean it either holds infinite cantrips (they will cost 1/2 or 1 spell level depending on the magic item) nor does it mean you can cast infinite cantrips out of it.
Rings of Spell Storing store up to X levels worth of spells. Mathematically, this means any number of 0-level spells could be stored in them. Is there any written rule, FAQ, or developer forum post that states or reasonably implies otherwise?Actually, mathematically you can store 0 number of 0-level spells in any Ring of Spell Storing. The method by which you would determine how many spells of any given level can be put into a Ring of Spell Storing is to take the total storable levels and divide by the level of the spells you're attempting to store.
Let's say you have a Ring of Spell Storing +5 (I'm not totally up on what possibilities are available and don't have my book in front of me, so just humor me if this is an illegal item.) In this case, your determining math would be this:
# of storable spells = 5 (max storable levels) / 0 (level of spells stored)
This would result in attempting to divide by zero, which you cannot do.
The game is not always about being mathmatically correct, which you are. For mathmatical purposes count 0 level spells as 0.5. It'll save you a lot of headaches.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Actually, mathematically you can store 0 number of 0-level spells in any Ring of Spell Storing. The method by which you would determine how many spells of any given level can be put into a Ring of Spell Storing is to take the total storable levels and divide by the level of the spells you're attempting to store.
Let's say you have a Ring of Spell Storing +5 (I'm not totally up on what possibilities are available and don't have my book in front of me, so just humor me if this is an illegal item.) In this case, your determining math would be this:
# of storable spells = 5 (max storable levels) / 0 (level of spells stored)
This would result in attempting to divide by zero, which you cannot do.
Your math asplode. There's no division involved. It's a matter of total.
Not that it matters, as you've been ninja'd by a very helpful post by Tiny Coffee Golem. :D
The game is not always about being mathmatically correct, which you are. For mathmatical purposes count 0 level spells as 0.5. It'll save you a lot of headaches.
I agree with you on the 0.5 spells point. My post was made based on A) not seeing yours already (what I get for not checking the end of the thread) and B) Jiggy's reluctance to accept other peoples' prior explanations of using cantrips as 0.5-level spells. Thanks for settling it.
Actually, mathematically you can store 0 number of 0-level spells in any Ring of Spell Storing. The method by which you would determine how many spells of any given level can be put into a Ring of Spell Storing is to take the total storable levels and divide by the level of the spells you're attempting to store.
Let's say you have a Ring of Spell Storing +5 (I'm not totally up on what possibilities are available and don't have my book in front of me, so just humor me if this is an illegal item.) In this case, your determining math would be this:
# of storable spells = 5 (max storable levels) / 0 (level of spells stored)
This would result in attempting to divide by zero, which you cannot do.
Your math asplode. There's no division involved. It's a matter of total.
Not that it matters, as you've been ninja'd by a very helpful post by Tiny Coffee Golem. :D
excellent. *raps fingers together Mr Burns Style*
How about we rename 0-level spells to "1/2-level spells" and be done with it?