Wanna know how to make an infinite amount of money out of thin air in core? Wall of Stone + Fabricate + Take 10 on a craft (sculpting) check to make an art objects instantly. As trade goods, art objects can be traded as gold.
Until you flood the market at least ;)
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So, basically you want anyone who takes a magic item crafting feat to become the craft-slave of the party. Although the crafter already saves party members 25% of their magic items costs, you want to force the character into being your slave and not get anything out of it at all, and to boot he will have no free time anymore. Thanks a bunch.I was in a similar position, as the item creator. I chose to sell at-cost (50%). The 25% cost that I missed out on would have just been a transfer among party members, not increasing the total pool of party funds. Wanting to control a bigger portion of the party funds seems like a douche move for a party member. I'd rather pay the full 100% to a stranger than 75% to reward the selfishness of someone that's supposed to be on the same side as me.
The whole "I want compensation beyond cost for helping out a teammate" seems absurd, doesn't it? I could understand if they weren't teammates, just random adventurers negotiating a sale.
It's like the dude who wants to hold all the loot until it's distributed. You're just being a greedy bell-end. The fact that the confrontation ended with the Wizard picking up his toys and choosing another feat tells you everything about his priorities. Guess what, wizard? You've got all the bargaining power. When the fighter leaves, you're still a wizard. You could leave and screw over the party. Using leverage against a party member? So that you have more of the party's money? How is this a difficult question?
You didn't know that "free time" is for noobs?
A wizard don't need it. He is constantly studying or crafting.Relaxing and having fun isn't in his career profile.
I'm confused about something.
Why is the wizard's down time more important than the rest of the parties down time? Seriously.
The rogue is the one (usually) doing all the appraising and selling and buying of items for the party, negotiating using diplomacy.
The party cleric is the one healing them outside of combat, using heal checks on them to give them back more healling than just spells can handle. He's also the one who goes to his temple and negotiates resurections for them, or casts them himself.
The party fighter is usually the one working with the NPCs that give the jobs, working on plans to bolster defense, or training their soldiers and generally making the group look good.
Should the rogue insist on making a profit from the rest of the team on every item he buys or sells for them, half of what he saves them or get's them above base? Should the cleric start charging for resurrections, say half WBL each time? Should the fighter be paid to intercede on the behalf of the wizard who got drunk in town and thrown in jail, getting him off because he's friends with the town guard, whom he's been training?
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You are asking them to reward you from wasting your time to make them stuff.It's a two way street. They are operating as part of a team, and by ensuring that team is well equipped the Crafter is contributing to his own success.
Ok, lets make an example.
We are co-owner of a small business.
Every day, after we have closed shop you stay there doing the books, sorting inventory, clearing the premises and so on. The morning you get there an hour ahead me and do all the preparatory work.
I instead go home as soon as the door is closed and get there when it open.
We get the same share of the activity profits because we are a team. You extra work increase the activity profit, so you get more money after all, even if in a indirect way.
Fair?
Don't think so.
Because it is "make believe" work in a "make believe" universe asking other people to work for free while you are taking the sun belly up don't make it right.
I really wish they would come up with commerce rules. Seems lame that a PC with item creation can't profit from it. Doesn't need to be a huge profit. But some profit would be nice.
I really wish they would come up with commerce rules. Seems lame that a PC with item creation can't profit from it. Doesn't need to be a huge profit. But some profit would be nice.
That's what the profession skill is for.
Profession
Check: You can earn half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession's daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems. You can also answer questions about your Profession. Basic questions are DC 10, while more complex questions are DC 15 or higher.
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Wanna know how to make an infinite amount of money out of thin air in core? Wall of Stone + Fabricate + Take 10 on a craft (sculpting) check to make an art objects instantly. As trade goods, art objects can be traded as gold.
EDIT: For the record, this is merely one of many tricks. Eventually the PCs are going to become very powerful, and at that point raw monetary gain takes a backseat to class features and caster level (or effective caster level) to craft their own items. The sky is the limit on how PCs can harvest raw materials, trade goods, and whatever to make money.
If you really want to limit PC power at high levels, enforce the magic item purchase rules. Anything above X is not easily available, and the only way to assuredly get the magic items they want is to craft them or to have them crafted by an appropriately leveled NPC (which may come with questing or game participation, as anyone powerful enough to make these probably has no need for money either).
You man that in your universe there is a huge demand for garden gnomes?
"Art objects" value come from the artistic value of the piece and its uniqueness, not from serial production of it.
Unless your crafter is an artist (and there are not in game rules for that) his production is of the same quality of the mass produced lawn ornaments.
Wanna know how to make an infinite amount of money out of thin air in core? Wall of Stone + Fabricate + Take 10 on a craft (sculpting) check to make an art objects instantly. As trade goods, art objects can be traded as gold.Until you flood the market at least ;)
Hey, I'm just sayin'. :P
PCs flood markets all the time. Go into some long lost dungeon of yore and bring back enough town to buy a small village and start spending it everywhere, and buying up stuff, and tippin' the brothel babes enough that they can now happily retire; etc.At some point, a wizard can just build a castle out of thin air. Just takes at most a few days and some spell slots. Not even a magical castle (no dispelling it). He can even make it proofed against most basic divination spells (by placing X inch think iron sheets between the walls), for pocket change.
I'm not suggesting that PCs do this, I'm just saying that there are plenty of ways to effectively no longer need money in D&D by 11th level. By that time, wealth is probably not a legitimate reason for adventuring anymore (you had "wealth" at 8th level to be certain). Likewise, according to the item availability rules, anything over 16k is pretty difficult to find in your typical campaign (and that's in a metropolis).
So after a certain point, Item Creation feats become very useful for acquiring the magic items you want. Without them, you either have to hope you want one of the 4d4 randomly generated medium magic items or 3d4 major magic items that just happens to be available in the city at the time, or you will need to find someone who is both capable and willing to create the magic items you want. And if they are capable, they might want you to do more than just give them a small moon worth of copper pieces.
We are co-owner of a small business.
See MDT above.
You seem to think you are the only one doing any work at the business.
Perhaps the Rogue should charge you 25% margin on all sales he fences, after all, he had to work on building the network of fences you are benefitting from - that was HIS downtime.
Maybe the Cleric should be charging you extras for all other non-battlefield healing?
I think the presumption is that the wizard is the only one working, whereas all he is doing is his job; like anyone else.
Wanna know how to make an infinite amount of money out of thin air in core? Wall of Stone + Fabricate + Take 10 on a craft (sculpting) check to make an art objects instantly. As trade goods, art objects can be traded as gold.Until you flood the market at least ;)Hey, I'm just sayin'. :P
PCs flood markets all the time. Go into some long lost dungeon of yore and bring back enough town to buy a small village and start spending it everywhere, and buying up stuff, and tippin' the brothel babes enough that they can now happily retire; etc.At some point, a wizard can just build a castle out of thin air. Just takes at most a few days and some spell slots. Not even a magical castle (no dispelling it). He can even make it proofed against most basic divination spells (by placing X inch think iron sheets between the walls), for pocket change.
I'm not suggesting that PCs do this, I'm just saying that there are plenty of ways to effectively no longer need money in D&D by 11th level. By that time, wealth is probably not a legitimate reason for adventuring anymore (you had "wealth" at 8th level to be certain). Likewise, according to the item availability rules, anything over 16k is pretty difficult to find in your typical campaign (and that's in a metropolis).
So after a certain point, Item Creation feats become very useful for acquiring the magic items you want. Without them, you either have to hope you want one of the 4d4 randomly generated medium magic items or 3d4 major magic items that just happens to be available in the city at the time, or you will need to find someone who is both capable and willing to create the magic items you want. And if they are capable, they might want you to do more than just give them a small moon worth of copper pieces.
You use random magic items? I try to cater to the party when it comes to found treasure, reduces the necessity of a magic mart or item creation.
You man that in your universe there is a huge demand for garden gnomes?
"Art objects" value come from the artistic value of the piece and its uniqueness, not from serial production of it.
Unless your crafter is an artist (and there are not in game rules for that) his production is of the same quality of the mass produced lawn ornaments.
This is false. Craft (Sculpting) is all that is required. A wizard can do this untrained, only applying his Intelligence check to determine how the details and his creativity plays out. The only thing the wizard is doing is taking out the basic limitation of crafting (time). Normally the more detailed and thus valuable the object is, the longer it will take to craft. In this case, the wizard is realizing his vision in a few moments.
The artistic value of an impeccably carved, perfectly scaled, visually stunning sculpture of a Gold Dragon admiring an orb in his hands would definitely be quite high. Other sculptors would need exceptionally large amounts of stone to do it, and easily months and months of work. Likewise, you would be hard pressed to find a sculptor with the skill that the wizard has (a 1st level professional sculptor using average array has a +5 to his result, +8 if he has skill focus, and +10 if he has masterwork tools; while a wizard can reach a +10 with nothing more than beginning with a 14 Int and leveling it with expected items and enhancements by 20th).
Lawn gnomes indeed. Hah. :P
You use random magic items? I try to cater to the party when it comes to found treasure, reduces the necessity of a magic mart or item creation.
I was citing the rule for just walking into a town and buying magic items. Here's the relevant portion.
The number and types of magic items available in a community depend upon its size. Each community has a base value associated with it (see Table: Available Magic Items). There is a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found for sale with little effort in that community. In addition, the community has a number of other items for sale. These items are randomly determined and are broken down by category (minor, medium, or major). After determining the number of items available in each category, refer to Table: Random Magic Item Generation to determine the type of each item (potion, scroll, ring, weapon, etc.) before moving on to the individual charts to determine the exact item. Reroll any items that fall below the community's base value.
Now when placing treasure, I sometimes might generate something randomly, but more often than not I place items that are good for the group or have quirky abilities they can use. For example, a magic shield with a dragon's head emblazed on it that can come to life and breath up to 5d4 fire damage in a 15ft gone in front of it (any combination of 5d4 per day, so one shot at 5d4 or 5 shots at 1d4, etc). The cleric in our group fell in love with this shield and has used it pretty frequently, even at low-mid levels. He's even talking about having it upgraded to be more powerful and have a higher save DC.
To get the exact magic items you want, then you will need to make them custom. If you want a nice +3/+3 demonbane merciful double-saber, you're probably going to need to have it forged (I use forged figuratively). In my games you can find a lot of very interesting and cool magic items, and I don't usually skimp on stuff that is legitimately useful, but it's not an issue of Santa Clause placing the magic items on your wish list in the next dungeon you come across.
The artistic value of an impeccably carved, perfectly scaled, visually stunning sculpture of a Gold Dragon admiring an orb in his hands would definitely be quite high.
Though being churned out in the bajillions in a Wizard-sweatshop we soon find them a dime to the dozen in our local Chinese dollar-store :)
You use random magic items? I try to cater to the party when it comes to found treasure, reduces the necessity of a magic mart or item creation.I was citing the rule for just walking into a town and buying magic items. Here's the relevant portion.
The number and types of magic items available in a community depend upon its size. Each community has a base value associated with it (see Table: Available Magic Items). There is a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found for sale with little effort in that community. In addition, the community has a number of other items for sale. These items are randomly determined and are broken down by category (minor, medium, or major). After determining the number of items available in each category, refer to Table: Random Magic Item Generation to determine the type of each item (potion, scroll, ring, weapon, etc.) before moving on to the individual charts to determine the exact item. Reroll any items that fall below the community's base value.Now when placing treasure, I sometimes might generate something randomly, but more often than not I place items that are good for the group or have quirky abilities they can use. For example, a magic shield with a dragon's head emblazed on it that can come to life and breath up to 5d4 fire damage in a 15ft gone in front of it (any combination of 5d4 per day, so one shot at 5d4 or 5 shots at 1d4, etc). The cleric in our group fell in love with this shield and has used it pretty frequently, even at low-mid levels. He's even talking about having it upgraded to be more powerful and have a higher save DC.
To get the exact magic items you want, then you will need to make them custom. If you want a nice +3/+3 demonbane merciful double-saber, you're probably going to need to have it forged (I use forged figuratively). In my games you can find a lot of very interesting and cool magic items, and I don't usually skimp on stuff that is legitimately...
I am familiar with the random magic item rules (I quoted them myself yesterday), just surprised that people regularly use them.
The artistic value of an impeccably carved, perfectly scaled, visually stunning sculpture of a Gold Dragon admiring an orb in his hands would definitely be quite high.Though being churned out in the bajillions in a Wizard-sweatshop we soon find them a dime to the dozen in our local Chinese dollar-store :)
Then the wizard doesn't really care because he causes the economy to collapse and then everything becomes super cheap for everyone. Why? Because anything anyone else can do by mundane means, he can do better. Mining ore? Wizard can do it faster and cheaper. Building buildings? Wizard can do it faster and cheaper. Forging weapons for an army? Wizard can do it faster and cheaper. Raising livestock? Wizards make livestock out of rocks, which they make faster and cheaper. Plowing fields? Wizards plow fields faster and cheaper. Need all of it done? Wizard does it all in the same day, prior to lunch. Need it all hauled? Wizard gets it where you want it to go.
You can argue that somehow the mage believe economy is somehow going to prevent the high level party from having what they want as far as money goes. That's basically like trying to hold back a tsunami by planting your feet in the sand. It's just not going to happen. You can either ignore this and get washed away, or you can use the incoming tsunami to power your campaign-machine into overdrive and harness the power that is coming for the betterment of everything. When life gives you lemons, you make +5 lemonade of heroes feast.
In one of the most successful campaigns I ever ran, the party basically had about 12 different methods of acquiring any and all the money they wanted. After a lot (and I do mean a lot) of thinking, I basically said I didn't care, but they would need to build their own stuff (which was restricted by their level based on the rules at the time). Wanna know what it did? Well the players got more into the campaign. Instead of pinching pennies and counting gold pieces, they looked at the game as movers and shakers. They weren't rummaging through dungeons because they wanted another platinum to try and afford that next +1 from a nameless craftsman in a city. They were rummaging through dungeons because the big bad was threatening the townsfolk in the area they placed their guild, temple, and hospital in.
They suddenly became interested in talking to kings, working out trade routes, negotiating peace, building towns, and fighting monsters because they were monsters and not because 3d4 x 1000 gp dropped out of them when they died (hypothetically speaking).
The artistic value of an impeccably carved, perfectly scaled, visually stunning sculpture of a Gold Dragon admiring an orb in his hands would definitely be quite high.Though being churned out in the bajillions in a Wizard-sweatshop we soon find them a dime to the dozen in our local Chinese dollar-store :)Then the wizard doesn't really care because he causes the economy to collapse and then everything becomes super cheap for everyone. Why? Because anything anyone else can do by mundane means, he can do better. Mining ore? Wizard can do it faster and cheaper. Building buildings? Wizard can do it faster and cheaper. Forging weapons for an army? Wizard can do it faster and cheaper. Raising livestock? Wizards make livestock out of rocks, which they make faster and cheaper. Plowing fields? Wizards plow fields faster and cheaper. Need all of it done? Wizard does it all in the same day, prior to lunch. Need it all hauled? Wizard gets it where you want it to go.
You can argue that somehow the mage believe economy is somehow going to prevent the high level party from having what they want as far as money goes. That's basically like trying to hold back a tsunami by planting your feet in the sand. It's just not going to happen. You can either ignore this and get washed away, or you can use the incoming tsunami to power your campaign-machine into overdrive and harness the power that is coming for the betterment of everything. When life gives you lemons, you make +5 lemonade of heroes feast.
In one of the most successful campaigns I ever ran, the party basically had about 12 different methods of acquiring any and all the money they wanted. After a lot (and I do mean a lot) of thinking, I basically said I didn't care, but they would need to build their own stuff (which was restricted by their level based on the rules at the time). Wanna know what it did? Well the players got more into the campaign. Instead of pinching pennies and counting gold pieces,...
I've had players complain about not having enough gold, but never adventure 'for' gold.
I am familiar with the random magic item rules (I quoted them myself yesterday), just surprised that people regularly use them.
I do. I tend to stick to the rules pretty closely. My players appreciate that I won't be dropping a lot of non-story surprises on them. Same with house rules (everyone knows up front and knows it's a house rule and not core, and I note that when teaching new players as well).
I don't really like the idea (from a GMing or PCing standpoint) of walking into a town and being able to randomly buy that +3 longsword of reptilian humanoid bane that I wanted for some random reason. Doubly so with custom items. If I was going to hand-wave anything, it would be for the basic types of items (like cloak of resistance) but I haven't found much of a need since those usually get taken care of as found treasure ('cause badguys use 'em too) or those abilities are crafted into a custom item (such as a minor cloak of displacement +3 where the +3 is a resistance bonus to saves.
Verisimilitude is fairly important to me. It was important to me when I was learning how to run the game in 3E, and it is very important to me now. I guess I am a product of the very wonderful information in the 3.x DMGs, which sometimes it seems nobody ever read except to look at the charts and lists. T.T
EDIT:
I've had players complain about not having enough gold, but never adventure 'for' gold.
Really? That's like one of the most famous default for adventuring. I mean, most campaign settings have professional adventurers that go on adventuring and brave unexplored dungeons and such for the riches, power, and knowledge contained within.
It's the high-risk high-reward venture of most fantasy RPGs.
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You man that in your universe there is a huge demand for garden gnomes?
"Art objects" value come from the artistic value of the piece and its uniqueness, not from serial production of it.
Unless your crafter is an artist (and there are not in game rules for that) his production is of the same quality of the mass produced lawn ornaments.
This is false. Craft (Sculpting) is all that is required. A wizard can do this untrained, only applying his Intelligence check to determine how the details and his creativity plays out. The only thing the wizard is doing is taking out the basic limitation of crafting (time). Normally the more detailed and thus valuable the object is, the longer it will take to craft. In this case, the wizard is realizing his vision in a few moments.
The artistic value of an impeccably carved, perfectly scaled, visually stunning sculpture of a Gold Dragon admiring an orb in his hands would definitely be quite high. Other sculptors would need exceptionally large amounts of stone to do it, and easily months and months of work. Likewise, you would be hard pressed to find a sculptor with the skill that the wizard has (a 1st level professional sculptor using average array has a +5 to his result, +8 if he has skill focus, and +10 if he has masterwork tools; while a wizard can reach a +10 with nothing more than beginning with a 14 Int and leveling it with expected items and enhancements by 20th).
Lawn gnomes indeed. Hah. :P
Yes, lawn gnomes, unless the wizard has some artistic taste. And there is no game rule for that.
They can be highly detailed lawn gnomes or tomb ornaments, but unless he is an artist they are nothing more.The standard wizard would produce the equivalent of mass produced stuff, not a Michelangelo piece.
Note that wall of stone produce "generic" soft stone (probably limestone or sandstone), not higher priced stones as granite or marble.
We are co-owner of a small business.
See MDT above.
You seem to think you are the only one doing any work at the business.
Perhaps the Rogue should charge you 25% margin on all sales he fences, after all, he had to work on building the network of fences you are benefitting from - that was HIS downtime.
Maybe the Cleric should be charging you extras for all other non-battlefield healing?
I think the presumption is that the wizard is the only one working, whereas all he is doing is his job; like anyone else.
I'll tell you what. My feats are just as valuable as the fighter's. More so because I get less of them. Why doesn't the Fighter take Master Craftsman, and maybe pick up Leadership and a crafter cohort, and it can be his job to make me stuff.
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Yes, lawn gnomes, unless the wizard has some artistic taste. And there is no game rule for that.
They can be highly detailed lawn gnomes or tomb ornaments, but unless he is an artist they are nothing more.
The standard wizard would produce the equivalent of mass produced stuff, not a Michelangelo piece.Note that wall of stone produce "generic" soft stone (probably limestone or sandstone), not higher priced stones as granite or marble.
You are wrong. Period. Sorry, but in D&D art objects have a value. Artistic taste is apparently determined by the cost of that object. Someone can take Craft (Writing) and write a book as an art object. They get bonuses for being intelligent, and bonuses for being trained, and bonuses for having it as a class skill. A person can chose to write a book worth 100 gold pieces, perhaps at DC 20, and produces a certain amount of work based on the time and checks he is making (possibly by taking 10). When the work is complete, you have a trade good that is worth money according to D&D/PF.
You can basically sit and say that "artistic value" all you want, but you're basically just making it up to be contrary. I guess you probably tell PCs that the expensive and finely woven tapestries (art objects) they found are actually worthless because despite being impressive works of art, they don't have enough "artistic flair"?
Meanwhile, somehow I doubt that having a 30 Intelligence means you lack a creative bone in your body. In fact, it seems to imply that you are not only so amazingly creative and adaptive that you get a whopping +10 to Craft skill checks. You are in fact so creative and quick of learning that you can walk into a blacksmith's shop, ask to borrow his hammer, and school him in the art of metallurgy and improve on his design.
Why not actually stop making stuff up just to be contrary, hmm?
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I'm confused about something.
Why is the wizard's down time more important than the rest of the parties down time? Seriously.
The rogue is the one (usually) doing all the appraising and selling and buying of items for the party, negotiating using diplomacy.
The party cleric is the one healing them outside of combat, using heal checks on them to give them back more healling than just spells can handle. He's also the one who goes to his temple and negotiates resurections for them, or casts them himself.
The party fighter is usually the one working with the NPCs that give the jobs, working on plans to bolster defense, or training their soldiers and generally making the group look good.
Should the rogue insist on making a profit from the rest of the team on every item he buys or sells for them, half of what he saves them or get's them above base? Should the cleric start charging for resurrections, say half WBL each time? Should the fighter be paid to intercede on the behalf of the wizard who got drunk in town and thrown in jail, getting him off because he's friends with the town guard, whom he's been training?
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Interesting argument. It is a strawman or really your characters spend weeks doing that stuff?
The rogue is spending 1 day for each 1.000 gp of loot appraising and selling it? I hope he is getting 100% value from the sales then.
How often your cleric use his healing skill to speed up healing? I have never seen that happening after the first couple of levels. And people refund him the costly spell components.
For resurrection in my games the guys are brought to the temple of the divinity they follow, not to the party cleric temple.
Most of my players chose a preferred deity and give donations at the local temple when they can, so they generally are already in the good graces of a specific church.
If done "in the field" the cleric expenses are refounded by the interested party.
Never seen a fighter doing that for other party members, I have seen them doing that for their own castle or taking the paid job of being the chief commander of one of the other characters.
In my experience if the thief get to sell something at above average price he take an extra cut from the sale and no one say anything about that.
Your argument sound as: the other guys spending one day or two for the best of the group is the same thing of a spellcaster spending weeks to craft for the other guys.
Speak about two weight and two measures.
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FabricateSchool transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time see text
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.
Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.
Faster: sure.
Decent quality or better: you need the skills.Artistic: no rule for that, probably you can simulate it with a raw charisma check.
Yes, lawn gnomes, unless the wizard has some artistic taste. ....You are wrong. Period. Sorry, but in D&D art objects have a value. Artistic taste is apparently determined by the cost of that object. ...
Are you serious?
You are speaking of crafted items, not of art objects.The book in your example can be worth 100 gp from the work alone because it is a hand made copy of another book and that is the work cost. But it will have no value as a "art object".
Go out and buy a painting.
If it is a original piece it has a price based on the artistic value of the piece.
If it is a copy printed on canvas of some masterpiece you pay the reproduction cost plus some copyright cost plus the sellers profit, not the masterpiece price.
Charisma does not determine the quality of art. You are making stuff up again. Intelligence determines the benefits of the craft check. Fabricate does not turn crappy wood into fine wood. However you can make a very artistic piece made out of crappy wood (probably makes it worthless but fine art made out of fine wood has no excuses).
You're right. There is no rule for artistic. There is just a set value of an art object. It's just like any other item. If you wanted to spend five weeks crafting a beautiful art object (finding the GP value and then working your balls off to make it with the craft skill) then you could. If a wizard wants to make a 10,000 gp statue, then all he needs is the craft DC and the materials.
I'm done arguing with you, because you are just making things up to be contrary, and making meaningless excuses, rather than actually trying to glean any sort of knowledge or learning from the lesson.
Interesting argument. It is a strawman or really your characters spend weeks doing that stuff?
No, it gets handwaved away, just like the Wizards 'down time'.
The Wizard isn't doing anything anyone else isn't doing.
The GM doesn't enforce 'waiting around for days for the fence to clear out the loot', he doesn't put the Rogue on side missions due to Fences stealing/getting arrested, he doesn't make the Rogue do all the diplomacy to build ties with the local thieves guild.
He doesn't make the Cleric spend time actually MINISTERING the flock or having to go out and promote his God(s)
And nor does he make crafting a trial and tribulation, other than 'you spend three days crafting'.
He doesn't have the Wizard pay taxes to the Magisters for making and selling magically crafted goods, He doesn't pay taxes to the King for sales, he doesn't get grief off the Artisans guild for mass producing items and flooding the market... similarly, his workshop magically never gets robbed while he is away adventuring.
Other than 'But I bought a Feat' the effort is basically nothing; there is no downside.
So lets not get all caught up in who is doing what, because subject to real scrutiny the whole show falls over.
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Charisma does not determine the quality of art. You are making stuff up again. Intelligence determines the benefits of the craft check. Fabricate does not turn crappy wood into fine wood. However you can make a very artistic piece made out of crappy wood (probably makes it worthless but fine art made out of fine wood has no excuses).
You're right. There is no rule for artistic. There is just a set value of an art object. It's just like any other item. If you wanted to spend five weeks crafting a beautiful art object (finding the GP value and then working your balls off to make it with the craft skill) then you could. If a wizard wants to make a 10,000 gp statue, then all he needs is the craft DC and the materials.
I'm done arguing with you, because you are just making things up to be contrary, and making meaningless excuses, rather than actually trying to glean any sort of knowledge or learning from the lesson.
Calm down.
Apparently we are speaking of two very different things.
For me an art object is something that has a higher intrinsic value than the material and simple workmanship in it.
A lawn ornament isn't worthless (you can see plenty of shops selling them) simply the object value is based on the work put in it and the material used.
So the spellcaster can easily make a living selling "common quality" statues or already cut limestone for construction (wall of stone plus fabricate).
What he is not doing is taking a piece of bronze and producing a statue on par with Cellini Perseus.
The suggestion of a charisma check was simply that, a possible way to adjudicate if he has the capability to produce an object that has extra worth for his artistic qualities.
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Interesting argument. It is a strawman or really your characters spend weeks doing that stuff?
No, it gets handwaved away, just like the Wizards 'down time'.
The Wizard isn't doing anything anyone else isn't doing.
The GM doesn't enforce 'waiting around for days for the fence to clear out the loot', he doesn't put the Rogue on side missions due to Fences stealing/getting arrested, he doesn't make the Rogue do all the diplomacy to build ties with the local thieves guild.
He doesn't make the Cleric spend time actually MINISTERING the flock or having to go out and promote his God(s)
And nor does he make crafting a trial and tribulation, other than 'you spend three days crafting'.
He doesn't have the Wizard pay taxes to the Magisters for making and selling magically crafted goods, He doesn't pay taxes to the King for sales, he doesn't get grief off the Artisans guild for mass producing items and flooding the market... similarly, his workshop magically never gets robbed while he is away adventuring.
Other than 'But I bought a Feat' the effort is basically nothing; there is no downside.
So lets not get all caught up in who is doing what, because subject to real scrutiny the whole show falls over.
Shifty: "Handwave roleplay away".
Ok, it that is your argument, there is no common basis for a discussion.
Have fun with your roll-playing.
Shifty: "Handwave roleplay away".Ok, it that is your argument, there is no common basis for a discussion.
Have fun with your roll-playing.
Actually I would LOVE to see all that done.
We can Roleplay for hours, in the meantime the guy playing the Wizard gets to sit in the corner playing on his PSP because his character is stuck in a tower crafting away and doing research.
Taken to the full, IF the GM enforced all those things, the Wizard would probably only ever turn up every second gaming session.
Would that be FUN for him/her?
No.
So there is a handwaving away of a lot of day to day stuff so he can get back and INTO the action. For HIS enjoyment and benefit, other people have to forgo doing all that cool stuff.
And for the privelidge of having to forgo a lot of cool gaming experience, the Wizard expects to charge them a 50% Mark up because 'he put in extra effort'.
Sounds like there is indeed one Roll-Player here, and its the guy who tries to claim 'extra effort' when all he is really doing is to take a feat to tax his friends.
Nope he took a feat to give them a discount. Or do you do math like congress? +1 to a weapon cost 2000 market 1000 at cost. 1500 is a discount for whoever gets it unless they can make it themselves.
And as far as the other examples none of what the other players are described as doing takes weeks at a time appraising an item is the longest outside of healing and it takes hours i believe simply hours. The wizard needs 2hours just to save you a bit on your potions.
Actually I would LOVE to see all that done.We can Roleplay for hours, in the meantime the guy playing the Wizard gets to sit in the corner playing on his PSP because his character is stuck in a tower crafting away and doing research.
Taken to the full, IF the GM enforced all those things, the Wizard would probably only ever turn up every second gaming session.
Would that be FUN for him/her?
No.
So there is a handwaving away of a lot of day to day stuff so he can get back and INTO the action. For HIS enjoyment and benefit, other people have to forgo doing all that cool stuff.
And for the privelidge of having to forgo a lot of cool gaming experience, the Wizard expects to charge them a 50% Mark up because 'he put in extra effort'.
Sounds like there is indeed one Roll-Player here, and its the guy who tries to claim 'extra effort' when all he is really doing is to take a feat to tax his friends.
+1000
Only if you are Metagaming.
And if you are Metagaming, then the 'days and weeks' the Wizard spends is a handwave just like everyone elses.
Only if you are Metagaming.
And if you are Metagaming, then the 'days and weeks' the Wizard spends is a handwave just like everyone elses.
I will assume this is aimed and me so please explain how what i said was in anyway metagaming.
And as far as the other examples none of what the other players are described as doing takes weeks at a time appraising an item is the longest outside of healing and it takes hours i believe simply hours. The wizard needs 2hours just to save you a bit on your potions.
The Rogue might have had to spend months, maybe even years, to develop a network of spies, fences, and informants. These are being used to fence off loot. Maintaining that network would similarly be taking a significant period of time.
The Fighter, likewise, would have to be spending his time remaining fit, training, and living a disciplined life and hone his skills - once again, significant ongoing time involved.
If we go along in Meta World, the Fighter wakes up each morning magically knowing a feat he didn't know yesterday because he just 'levelled'. The game rotates around such factors to keep things fun and not bog down into too much mundane detail.
The Cleric similarly has a bunch of things he/she should be doing, yet these things - though time consuming - are not all prescribed by RAW.
The only matters in which RAW makes an arbitrary timesink is in Magical Item crafting, notionally to slow down the speed at which the Wizard can pump things out... by making it slightly punitive TO THE GROUP it puts a slight throttle on the PARTY.
To say that the only thing in the RULES is the Crafting times, so nothing else is taking place/matters is Meta. We know full well it could take time.
Even in the 21st century with a global market and the help of Ebay it takes a while to sell stuff, not just 'an hour or two', now take those things as being (relatively) hideously expensive items that are most likely stolen goods. See you next year.
Lets break these down
The rogue has his network which probably did take a good while but how often do we need a specialized buyer for loot most things can be sold in a local store unless its stolen or rare. Also in these cases yes i feel the rogue (who is the only reason we can sell it) should get something for his work.
The fighter however in your example is doing things that keep his combat abilties up much like the wizard researching spells to help in adventuring. His share of the loot is what he gets for his adventuring skills. No extra money here.
The cleric nothing i can assume you have him doing in his spare time is either directly saving or costing the rest of the party money. We may not even share his faith. His spellcasting is his adventuring skill so once agian we have loot for that.
Wizard not asking for fireball money instead is asking that if he is to devote time to making something expensive he be paid a bit extra since anytime he isn't crafting for you he could be spending time crafting for people who he doesn't like for 2x what it cost him to make the items. Were he not to exist or not have taken the feat the others now have to either use a feat or pay full price.(unless you have NPC crafters work for cost.)
Interesting argument. It is a strawman or really your characters spend weeks doing that stuff?
He's spending just as much time and likely resources as the wizard is. He's out gaining information about the town, meeting and greeting people, and making his contacts. This is all handled in exactly the same way the Wizard crafts his magic goodies. That is, it's part of his down time for 90% of it. The wizard's player doesn't want to roleplay mixing chemicals and chanting and drawing diagrams on the floor does he? 2 weeks worth? 3 weeks worth? The rogue doesn't want to RP spending an hour with Bilber the Barkeep, where all he does is trade ribald stories about various tavern wenches for 2 hours and drink ale, does he? And the rogue is spending his resources on being able to do that for the wizard. His skill points, likely a rogue talent or feat (skill focus?). Why is the wizard putting one feat, one measly feat, a sky destroying and soul sucking loss, but the rogue spending skill points every level on appraise, diplomacy, and KNowledge Local (that's 3 skill points per level!) plus probably either spending a feat or spending some of his WBL on things that give him bonuses to those skills (like a headband of +cha) is just 'What the rogue does to provide use to the wizard'? My god, you people have an inflated ego over the value of a wizard, all other classes must bow down and kiss his shiny arse?
How often your cleric use his healing skill to speed up healing? I have never seen that happening after the first couple of levels. And people refund him the costly spell components.
And who said nobody was refunding the Wizard for the 'costly spell components' used to make items? Nobody has said he should make them out of his own pocket, just not charge his friends more than the cost of materials.
Your argument sound as: the other guys spending one day or two for the best of the group is the same thing of a spellcaster spending weeks to craft for the other guys.
Your argument sounds like this : I deny your reality, and I substitute my own. I do the only work in the group, and everyone else lazes about and drinks ale while I work, so I get paid and you don't, nah nah nah nah, I'm the wizard and I am god and you are toad lickers!
Honestly, the hubris of your statements shows you know nothing about how the other classes would be working their asses off in a real world setting, yet you want to use a real world setting argument for why the wizard is so special. Talk about hypocritical. Or should I say, two different weights and two different measures?
Thanks MDT.
I agree with that pretty much 100%.
Two different weights indeed.
Incidentally, if the Wizard wanted to spend all his time making items in my campaigns to sell to adventurers for full price, he'd be called an NPC.
Similarly the Rogue could set himself up as a full time fence, buying goods off Adventurers for 50% and reselling to the market for 100% - apparently you can't get less than the asking price on the market when buying goods - no matter how second hand they might be. yet magically you struggle getting more than 50% when selling them, and magically you can never skip the middleman and buy direct and SAAAAAVE.
How is 25% off not SAAAAAAVVVVIIIIINNNGGGG? Thats what me wanting 1.5x the material cost would be. Noone is saying pay full price from the party wizard but if your rogue or cleric wanted in the same time they could be making money with profession the cleric especially since he runs off wisdom however for the wizard to be doing any good on the item he can't roll it while he works on making something so since even with roleplaying the above interactions they would still have their 8hrs a day each week to make the check the wizard gets nothing because he figured he would save the party some money and might make a bit on the side.
So why can't the rogue just bypass your massive markup and buy all his loot at 50% from adventurers down the pub?
Why are the mechanics favouring you so heavily as a wizard, and then punishing him so severely as a Rogue? if fences routinely buy at 50% or less, how come he can't become a fence too?
Seems that some wizards are bent on taking advantage of lumpy game mechanics and the denial of class skills and 'gamist-realism' to line their own pockets, while all they were really doing was 'their job' in the first place.
Anyone would think that the 'poor wizard' was spending Feats he wasn't going to get the benefit of too. The same said party forced to wait around while he crafts himself stuff.
Harsh.
See your using Politcal Accounting to say that since its more than what i would have paid making it myself im losing money even if its cheaper than what i would have paid at the store.
our arguements are the same outside of a party crafter your paying full price so if he wants to charge and its less than retail then your saving money.
My job isn't crafting anymore than the fighters is. He can easily take feats and has more to spare to make his own weapons and armor.
Though ill just say this even when you save a whole f$%$ing country in a game you get one shot of loot and a discount on items. Even if you diplomacy a guy up to helpful he still is gonna charge you more than break even cost. So why am i different because I am played by a person and not the DM? That is the real Metagame thinking IMHO.
The Rogue might have had to spend months, maybe even years, to develop a network of spies, fences, and informants. These are being used to fence off loot. Maintaining that network would similarly be taking a significant period of time.
I love that strawman. I have never, ever in 13 years of RP'ing participated in a game where any party I've ever played with needed a Rogue to fence all loot from a dungeon and self-same Rogue would have needed for such selling off to establish a huge spy network.
But, hey, if that is how it works at all your tables, more power to you.
The Fighter, likewise, would have to be spending his time remaining fit, training, and living a disciplined life and hone his skills - once again, significant ongoing time involved.
Strawman. The Wizard is one of the classes whichs starts his adventuring career the latest ( see starting ages, p. 169 CRB ). By your logic, he should charge the earlier age starters up front for his services, because it was harder for him to learn them.
The only matters in which RAW makes an arbitrary timesink is in Magical Item crafting, notionally to slow down the speed at which the Wizard can pump things out... by making it slightly punitive TO THE GROUP it puts a slight throttle on the PARTY.
So, by your logic Wizards who do not take crafting feats should be punished, because they impede the party getting better?
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The only matters in which RAW makes an arbitrary timesink is in Magical Item crafting, notionally to slow down the speed at which the Wizard can pump things out... by making it slightly punitive TO THE GROUP it puts a slight throttle on the PARTY.So, by your logic Wizards who do not take crafting feats should be punished, because they impede the party getting better?
If he take the feat he should be punished working for free, if he don't take it he should be punished for not supplying the party.
Apparently the fighter has to train to stay fit while the wizard don't need to visit libraries to keep his knowledge of the magical arts up to date or research the new spells that he will get when he rise in level.
A fighter don't get his new feat from inspiration but from hard work, while the wizard get it when it woke the in the morning.
I have never seen a rogue developing a world spanning net of contacts to sell a few pieces of loot, especially as most loot is well under the purchasing limit of most big cities.
If someone has special contacts from roleplaying or feats they generally get a bit more than the standard 50% resale price and, at least in the groups I know, the one doing the work selling the stuff above retail price keep a percentage of the extra gain.
For Shifty and mdt it is not a matter of role playing or game balance, it is a matter of dislike for spellcasters.
They follow a classic train of thoughts, the difference between "a honest day of work" and "intellectual work", where intellectual work is something dirty and lazy.
All said and done the solution is fairly simple. never take a item construction feat. Less headaches for the master if he follow WBL.
If someone ask him, the wizard is spending 90% of his free time researching new spells and his next feat or discovery.
Indeed. Wizards already have the option of researching new spells to add to their spell list, so maybe instead of being somebody's craft-slave, he could just be spending six weeks and 6,000 gp to research an arcane heal spell to cast on the cleric when he gets smote and needs a healer they don't have. Maybe everyone in the party should just take leadership and have a cohort craft-slave who gets to sit back at the ranch and make them all items.
Maybe everyone in the party should just take leadership and have a cohort craft-slave who gets to sit back at the ranch and make them all items.
This.
Crafting is nice and all, but seriously...
For Shifty and mdt it is not a matter of role playing or game balance, it is a matter of dislike for spellcasters.
They follow a classic train of thoughts, the difference between "a honest day of work" and "intellectual work", where intellectual work is something dirty and lazy.
Thats not only incorrect on every account, it just smacks of dirty dishonesty. You have tried to cast the wizard in the poor and suffering role where he is the one toiling away whle the rest of the party go out and dance and jump for glee, like some modern day Cinderella locked up by her ugly sisters while they went to the Ball.
Truth be told, in actual gameplay the crafting of items is no more taxing than taking the Feat to do so, the Wizard is 'suffering away' no more or less than anyone else in the party that all have a job to do. It's just that some people feel they have an etitlement mentality and that somehow JUST DOING THEIR JOB LIKE EVERYONE ELSE should entitle them to more, because the rules suggest they might spend a few afternoons working (like everybody else).
Everyone in the party puts in and does theur job, you shouldn't get paid extra just for doing yours.
If you don't like crafting, then don't be a crafter, no one is forcing you to.
If you do like it and do take a crafter, don't complain about what a burden it is.
I'm in a few campaigns, and the only crafter in any of them is the Fighter.
Doesn't bother us any, crafting is boring as.
I like how you try claim the ground as a 'roleplayer' though; please explain to me the roleplaying mastery behind taking a Feat, working out a few mathematical tables, then charging your friends a hefty fee for service - not a single iota of RP there, and exactly the gameplay you are advocating.
However the arguement your making is that if i charge you more than break even it is hurting you and the party. How is anyone paying less for something put a throttle on the group?
If you want to make it about time then just remember there is only a 75% for things to be in a city after a certian level of cost which means your waiting just as long if it isn't in stock and paying full price and you can't even have the item handy during the wait like you could if your own wizard worked on it.
I love that strawman. I have never, ever in 13 years of RP'ing participated in a game where any party I've ever played with needed a Rogue to fence all loot from a dungeon and self-same Rogue would have needed for such selling off to establish a huge spy network.
But, hey, if that is how it works at all your tables, more power to you.
Depends on the campaign.
However generally the need for such a thing is handwaved away in the same way Wizards 'massive effort' is waved away - "Three days pass and the Wizard is finished making stuff, oh yeah and all that gear sold for X,000gp". There was no more effort made by the Wizard than anyone else.
Not one skerrick.
Most things are actually done around the needs of the Wizard, not the need of the party.
Imagine how you as a player would feel if you sat down for two weeks of crafting, and the party picked up a new Wizard at the pub and went off raiding while you were in the tower busily crafting away; and after all why SHOULDN'T they? Might be easier to have a network of Wizards they know, and just take whos available between doing crafting commisssions.
Sounds like a bad way to deal with it to me.
If the GM said 'magic crafting is now instant' would this change your view? Because in reality he may as well be saying that as there is no appreciable in game or out of game effect for the abstracted passasge of time.
Except in that 2 weeks there are other things the party could be doing such as profession checks spending time with loved ones crafting mundane items the list goes on.
I love that strawman. I have never, ever in 13 years of RP'ing participated in a game where any party I've ever played with needed a Rogue to fence all loot from a dungeon and self-same Rogue would have needed for such selling off to establish a huge spy network.
But, hey, if that is how it works at all your tables, more power to you.
Depends on the campaign.
However generally the need for such a thing is handwaved away in the same way Wizards 'massive effort' is waved away - "Three days pass and the Wizard is finished making stuff, oh yeah and all that gear sold for X,000gp". There was no more effort made by the Wizard than anyone else.
Not one skerrick.
Most things are actually done around the needs of the Wizard, not the need of the party.
Imagine how you as a player would feel if you sat down for two weeks of crafting, and the party picked up a new Wizard at the pub and went off raiding while you were in the tower busily crafting away; and after all why SHOULDN'T they? Might be easier to have a network of Wizards they know, and just take whos available between doing crafting commisssions.
Sounds like a bad way to deal with it to me.
If the GM said 'magic crafting is now instant' would this change your view? Because in reality he may as well be saying that as there is no appreciable in game or out of game effect for the abstracted passasge of time.
That's of course complete and utter BS. Yes, crafting has a damn high opportunity price. Because while the party is sitting on its ass, waiting for the crafter(s) to get done with their stuff, the BEG of the campaign is off advancing his plot. Adventure paths actually have timelines... outside of Kingmaker ( where I prohibited PC crafting for the self-same reason ), you have to get stuff done on a certain timescale, otherwise Bad Things happen.
So, yeah, time is a premium in most campaigns for crafters, and as such they have limited time to do their thing. If time is not an issue, suddenly we get again into the territory where parties have almost double their WBL, forcing the GM to cut the treasure in half or see the campaign derailed.
A RL example: I am playing a Sorcerer in a current Second Darkness campaign. I took Craft Wondrous Item and have been chugging out some low-level stuff for myself and some, at 75% market price, for my comrades. One of them has complained, the others are totally fine with it. The one guy who was not cool with it can happily buy things at 100% market price, so he actually does not lose anything from what I do.
However, we are pressed for time. We are between modules, so the GM gave us two week in-game to get stuff done and then we move on, travelling somewhere. And I highly suspect that free time will become much scarcer the further we go into the campaign.
So, where did I hurt the group? They got wondrous items for 75% of what they normally would have paid. Did I hurt them, according to you, by not taking another feat? I could as well have taken Skill Focus: Perform, because my character likes playing the guitar. Would you have tried to run me out of the group for that, because it was not the optimal min-max choice?
That's of course complete and utter BS. Yes, crafting has a damn high opportunity price. Because while the party is sitting on its ass, waiting for the crafter(s) to get done with their stuff, the BEG of the campaign is off advancing his plot.
Right, and in cases like that, HOW IS THE WIZARD THE ONE PENALISED?
See the point of this thread is all about whether it is fair to charge the party a 50% mark up on items, notionally based on all the opportunity cost and effort for the Wizard.
What this thread is NOT about is 'what the bad guy could be doing'.
If ther party is on a timeline, then the whole discussion is moot as there is no time for crafting, but if there is no time line then we are back to the conversation again aren't we.
So in that case, where is the massive impost that solely punishes the Wizard and puts them out? Nowhere.
How many players ACTUALLY have Profession anything? and assuming they did, what is it going to boil down to? a couple of die rolls or checks?
Where's the roleplaying opportunity in that?
Nowhere.
Nil.
Nada.
Zip.
Or we can roleplay it out, send the Wizard home though, as he wont be involved in the next few gaming sessions.
Unless we agree to handwave away the time, generally the Wizard WILL be punished by missing Roleplay opportunity as he sits there playing PSP.
I'm not all about min/max optimising, I am against people who think the party owes them more than their due for simply proving the utility they were invited for in the first place.
In my perfect world the party would blow off crafting, and instead develop contacts where they could get items at a discount - Rogue through 'connections', cleric via his church, Fighter through a Merc company/Kingdom/Band of brothers, Wizard via an Academy - or the Leadership plan mentioned earlier.
What I don't expect is for a GM to enforce cartel behaviour where all items are at 100% cost no matter what, and then to have some player (for the price of a single Feat) able to hold us to ransom being the only discount in town and having him given a monopoly.
Getting those sources up and running, THAT is Roleplaying right there kids, not "I chose Craft wondrous monopoly" and making people sit around waiting for you to make yourself wealthy (off them).
That's of course complete and utter BS. Yes, crafting has a damn high opportunity price. Because while the party is sitting on its ass, waiting for the crafter(s) to get done with their stuff, the BEG of the campaign is off advancing his plot.Right, and in cases like that, HOW IS THE WIZARD THE ONE PENALISED?
See the point of this thread is all about whether it is fair to charge the party a 50% mark up on items, notionally based on all the opportunity cost and effort for the Wizard.
What this thread is NOT about is 'what the bad guy could be doing'.
Here's a better question Shifty...
What god died and made Magnuskun the lord high pubah of deciding how every game in the world runs, and that other people's games are BS? As I said earlier in the thread, the amount of arrogance and hubris is absolutely amazing. Apparently, if you don't run your game as Magnsukn does, you are wrong and your arguments are BS because you are doing it wrong. Sort of like playing checkers using chess pieces. Blech.
Here's a better question Shifty...
Thanks for the correction.
Just scrap crafting...
Less QQ, more pew-pew.