What about the crazy old hermit, Bokken?
Forgot all about that guy. Although I don't see him occupying a Leadership position anytime soon.
I just noticed Zorestar would make an awesome Grand Diplomat (that he would be a good Magister goes without saying). He has a noble bearing, is intelligent, educated and good-mannered. The position uses Intelligence as well (both you either use Intelligence or charisma).
Hey Aron, we had a deal with Bokken, can you remind me again what was it? Might be I get some potions out of him.
edit: Just found it in your profile. It's a 25% discount. Might come in handy for my masterplan mwahahahaha
Keep in mind that people ahve to willingly fill said positions.
You're going to have a hell of a time trying to convince Telias to take on civic reponsibility.
Figured Telias might either be a Warden or a professional hermit.
No, Telias is still an amateur hermit. Bokken on the other hand, that man's a pro.
Jameson would or course prefer a LG community, but will end up settling for NG, as long as there are some important laws. Position I haven't thought much on, will sort that out when we get there and what we need.
Sorry for the long (and many) posts. I had to expose the information I gathered so painfully and my pityfully flawed plan.
Please don't apologize. I love seeing someone post frequently and with quality!
Please don't apologize. I love seeing someone post frequently and with quality!
+1 totally agree.
I'm a sucker for plans that involve dressing up as the enemy and walking up his front door. Must've watched too many Robin Hood movies.
Kevin Costner probably loves you for that.
No worries for the posts. It's better than one five page long post that takes 20mins to read. Breaking it up also works well to leave room for others to reply making it more of a conversation than a monologue vs monologue situation.
And Mel Brooks too :)
I hoped for that, but as I was posting around 3 am.
Aron, I was looking at the kingdom building rules and I'd like to ask something.
For each hex you claim, you increase the consumption by 1. That looks like it can get out of hand pretty quickly. To counter that, you can build farms, reducing the Consumption by 2.
But on a forest hex you can't build farms (obviously) but you still increase Consumption by 1. Is that to discourage expansion to the forest?
I mean, it looks pretty costly to get those hexes, and they wield no benefit (which is strange considering forests wield fruit and game).
I'm asking those questions because I believe it would be nice to get the hex with the temple of Erastil, and it would probably require some previous preparation (building farms, etc). Jhod would be thrilled if we could restore the temple and keep a small hippy community in the woods.
From an out of game logic, what's to stop us from clear cutting it?
Not that that won't make Telias fly into a rage.
I wasn't contemplating that 'cause I thought cutting the forest down to reach a temple of a nature god was kind of nonsensical.
But I haven't found anything like that in the rules. Could be I glossed over it, though, there were a lotta rules.
So I'm guessing we're going to be moving like this for our next outing.
White = Our Trail
Blue = If we want to know what the trees have to say about that boggard
Red = Frown Town. Population: Staggey McLordly
Extra size is itself a benefit, as it allows greater population (making armies easier to raise in later chapters) and speeds you towards getting the better bonuses from the rulers. In pure non-mechanic terms, also think of it as your mandate to colonise the lands as well as the obvious 'larger kingdoms are more prestigious' angle :).
Besides, consumptions very easy to keep at 0.
So I'm guessing we're going to be moving like this for our next outing.
White = Our Trail
Blue = If we want to know what the trees have to say about that boggard
Red = Frown Town. Population: Staggey McLordly
My thought was to go SE(spiders), SW, SW, W to start and take out the three unmapped hexes on the way down. Also, the new city boy might have something that we could use to talk to the Boggard.
Regarding country size, also, bigger means that the Ruler has an effect on more things. Initially he/she adds to one thing Econ/Stability/Loyalty. But, when the land gets bigger, you get too add the Cha bonus to 2 and then all three things.
So I'm guessing we're going to be moving like this for our next outing.
White = Our Trail
Blue = If we want to know what the trees have to say about that boggard
Red = Frown Town. Population: Staggey McLordlyMy thought was to go SE(spiders), SW, SW, W to start and take out the three unmapped hexes on the way down. Also, the new city boy might have something that we could use to talk to the Boggard.
Regarding country size, also, bigger means that the Ruler has an effect on more things. Initially he/she adds to one thing Econ/Stability/Loyalty. But, when the land gets bigger, you get too add the Cha bonus to 2 and then all three things.
not to mention, if the ruler gets married their Cha bonus get's added to the Ruler's.
not to mention, if the ruler gets married their Cha bonus get's added to the Ruler's.So I'm guessing we're going to be moving like this for our next outing.
White = Our Trail
Blue = If we want to know what the trees have to say about that boggard
Red = Frown Town. Population: Staggey McLordlyMy thought was to go SE(spiders), SW, SW, W to start and take out the three unmapped hexes on the way down. Also, the new city boy might have something that we could use to talk to the Boggard.
Regarding country size, also, bigger means that the Ruler has an effect on more things. Initially he/she adds to one thing Econ/Stability/Loyalty. But, when the land gets bigger, you get too add the Cha bonus to 2 and then all three things.
Thinking of which, what is the rule on poligamy?
Thinking of which, what is the rule on poligamy?
Whatever we want and whatever the religion of the area allows I imagine.
Whatever we want and whatever the religion of the area allows I imagine.
Thinking of which, what is the rule on poligamy?
ROFL - no, if the ruler can include his/her spouses Charisma bonus, can we have 4 wives or 4 husbands? Think of the bonuses. Bron could marry a harem of say 6 succubi and get +7 from each of them. The possibilities are endless.
Endless, I say! :)
Ganit: Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in!
My initial thoughts on the rolls and initial city.
Alignment NG - we have laws and they are enforced, but generally the population is allowed to go about its business with limited governmental interference. As long as the citizens are not doing evil acts, we are pretty cool with it.
Gives +2 Loyalty and +2 Stability.
Location of City - somewhere in the middle of the map. I do not know what the land is like where the Staglord's fort is, but it was obviously viewed as a good defensible location when it was built. Definitely on a river as building roads and gaining river squares gives us bonuses to Economy. Also, where the Temple of the Elk is might allow for us to build the city and be able to build a temple in the first month for 1/2 price, which would be a nice startup bonus.
Positions in Gov't
Ruler - Bron or Carina, I have 18 Cha, he has 17 - either of us would make a good, albeit unusual ruler - the freak or the man with skeletons in his closet. If I am the ruler, then Bron can take the +1 at level 4 for strength which seems to be more his build. With 17 Cha, unless he is planning on casting a whole bunch of de-buff spells, he will really not need any more charisma except to gain a +1 on Econ/Loyalty/Stability rolls.
Councilor - Bron or Carina - +4 Stability - either of us would be good here as well
General - James - 18 Str at level 4 will give +4 Stability
Grand Diplomat - NPC - not sure who would be good here - perhaps Svetlana as she seems quite Charismatic - actually, if she and Oleg both have high Charisma, we might want them as the ruler initially.
High Priest - Cambyl or Jhod - not sure about Jhod's wisdom, but have to assume that it is at least 16.
Magistar - Zorestar - +4 to Econ is nice, +5 once he gets to level 4 and gains 1 more Int.
Marshal - Telias or Lukan - +4 Econ - Telias seems perfect for this. Give him a bunch of grumpy patrols and let them make sure that the wilderness is safe for beasts - and not too dangerous for settlers.
Royal Assassin - Ganit - +3 Loyalty - roll seems fit for him
Spymaster - Chief Sootscale - not sure, but I think Aron said he had high Dex - add the bonus to Econ, at least initially
Treasurer - Cambyl probably, and then put Jhod in the High Priest roll - or vice versa - Erastil is LG, and having a LG treasurer would mean little skimming from the taxes.
Warden - Lukan, Keston or Kressel - whoever has the highest Str/Dex - seems right down Lukan's alley.
________
Buildings
Starting with 50 BP
1 BP - Clear 1 hex
3 BP - 1 House - Decreast Unrest (-1)
6 BP - Library - +1 Econ, +1 Loyalty
4 BP - Graveyard - +1 Econ, +1 Loyalty
6 BP - Mill - +1 Econ, +1 Stability
6 BP - Brewery - +1 Loyalty, +1 Stability
6 BP - Smith - +1 Econ, +1 Stability
6 BP - Tannery - +1 Econ, +1 Stability
12 BP - Tavern - +500gp base value, +1 Econ, +1 Loyalty
--> If we build at the Temple of the Elk and can get a temple for 1/2 price, that would be a good idea.
Total - 50 BP. I do not know whether we need to keep BP in reserve or exactly how that works. We can easily drop one item. The Tavern is expensive, but as I recall, city value is very important. We could also build an Inn for 10 BP instead of the tavern. It just seems that with this crew, the first thing that would be built would be the tavern. Also, regarding houses, I think that the -1 Unrest is something that you cannot hold in reserve. This, unless you have unrest, building an unrest reducing building will not help much.
Also, there are a bunch of more expensive buildings which halve the cost of certain other buildings. For instance if we build a Theatre for 24 BP, it will halve the cost of a Brothel (4BP to 2BP), a Tavern (12BP to 6BP) and a Park (4BP to 2BP). Other cost reducing structures are Cathedral, Arena, Academy, Castle, Garrison, Guildhall, Market, Noble Villa, Temple, Theatre, Town Hall, and Waterfront.
If - a big if here - we were to choose to build the city where the Temple already is, I think that would reduce the Temple cost to 16 BP. Which would be huge and give us some very nice bonuses. Also, we would get an additional -2 Unrest, so we could build two unrest creating structures (Brothel for Ganit and Bron or a Tenement).
Just my initial thoughts.
My early thoughts on kingdom building:
- I agree with the alignment. NG seems the way to go. Maybe LG; Erastil is still pretty popular down here, and his tenents although LG aren't really stifling or restrictive. Maybe we could take a look there for a couple ideas.
- Location: If I understood correctly the rules, we could take a ruin or a building and incorporate it for half price. If the Stag Lord's fort is a "garrison" or a "watchtower" we could be making a good deal starting there.
I believe we also have one other starting point: Oleg's. We could incorporate his post and maybe pay half for some sort of upgrade (maybe turning it into a garrison or watchtower). The good news is that the land around Oleg's is all grasslands, easier to build and farm.
- Leadership Positions:
Assuming we all survive (I'm getting the feeling that this attack on the fort will be tough), we have a lot of options. It would be cool if everyone chimed in about the position they'd like their character to occupy. I think the PCs should have priority over any NPCs.
Jameson, for instance, could do well (according to the rules) as General, Royal Assassin or Warden. Same goes for Zorestar; he would do an excelent Magister, Diplomat, Spymaster or Treasurer.
About the NPCs, I've been checking their sheets (Lukan and Cambyl's) and writing a tally for NPCs we have found before. I'll suggest mostly the roles which they would do good (according by the rules) but also the ones they would most likely be drawn to. Some of them I had to assume likely stats (Kesten Garess is a fighter, he should have a good Strenght score).
Lukan: General or Warden (whichever Jameson doesn't occupy)
Cambyl: High Priest, Councilor, Treasurer.
Oleg Leveton: Treasurer. -
Svetlana Leveton: Diplomat, maybe?
Jhod Kavken: High Priest, Councilor, Treasurer. -
Kesten Garess: General, Warden or Royal Assassin. -
Chief Sootscale: Royal Assassin or Spymaster. -
Kressel: Royal Assassin. -
edit: As Alexander pointed out, rangers do not need Dexterity to dual-wield. Kressel probably has a good Strenght, though.
- About buildings/stuff
I do believe we need to keep a few BP left. If I understood correctly, we need to pay Consumption first thing in the round, and bad things happen when we don't.
I see there's a limit to how many buildings we can build per month. Does that mean we could only build 1 building this first month? If so, we could aim higher, build a big one like a Temple or a Town Hall.
A brothel also looks good considering it's a fledging colony; I think it would give a rough-and-tumble Old West look to our barony.
Ranger's dont necessarily need high dex to dual-wield, as they can ignore dex prq on those feats by taking them as bonus feats.
I think this was the case with Kressle. IIRC, her strength scores her best attribute.
My big question is having a NPC as the ruler - if Svetlana and Oleg have decent Charisma, then they might be better in those roles. We have a 6 person party, so that fills a lot of roles. As I mentioned in my post, several of us have really played as though aiming for certain positions:
Ganit - Spymaster/Royal Assassin
Telias - Marshal
Bron/Carina - ok, nothing really fits, but clearly they are made for Ruler/Grand Diplomat/Councilor
Zorestar - Magister (maybe Treasurer with his background)
James - General (maybe Warden, but since the Warden is more in the city, that seems to be rather adverse the the mounted nature of the Cavalier)
So, if you take Ruler, Grand Diplomat, Magister, Marshal, Royal Assassin and General out of the equation you have:
Councilor - Cha/Wis --> probably Svetlana with her Charisma (I assume)
High Priest - Dex/Cha --> Cambyl/Jhod
Spymaster - Dex/Int --> seems like a good role for Chief Sootscale, Kobolds can be sneaky.
Treasurer - Wis/Int --> Cambyl/Jhod since we don't have anyone but Zorestar with high Int, maybe Oleg if he has high Int
Warden - Str/Con --> Lukan/Kressel/Kesten - whoever has the highest strength
I do not believe the NPCs should have a Charisma modifier bigger than ours, and even if they did, I believe a PC should be ruler.
One thing you may not have accounted for, Carina, is if even because of a political deal (or maybe not) Bron and Carina married and ruled jointly. Then we would have two Charisma powerhouses applying their bonuses to various kingdom stats.
Telias I believe could also make High Priest at a pinch, guiding the kingdom towards a proper living with nature. I believe Ganit as he is is well-suited IC and OC to be the Marshal; although I'd really like if he would become our Spymaster, hunting criminals and scouting on our neighbours;
If Bron was to occupy a position that relied on Charisma (or Strenght, for that matter) I would have no qualms about puttin my 4th level point there. It's an odd number, after all :)
True - for some reason though, I think that Telias is not really the one that you want as the face of religion. I know that stat wise it would work fine, but it would be very amusing watching him try to get the faithful to follow him.
Out the front door: What are all you people doing here. Get away, there are no handouts. Then he would whistle and a pack of dire badgers would attack anyone still on his unmowed lawn.
Ganit/Chief Sootscale definitely seem the Assassin or Spymaster contingent (actually Lukan also has a 16 Dex.)
Carina and Bron would make for a very formidable bonus - +7 at present, +8 if you increased Dex at level 4 or 8. Carina will probably drop her bonus into Cha at both level 4 and level 8. Add in a headband or two, and you could easily be up to +15 to all the Nation modifiers within a few levels.
I wouldn't imagine that Ganit would be thrilled about the Royal Assassin, I think as a character he'd be more inclined to Councilor or Spymaster if he was forced into any position at all. The way I see his political philosophy is it's a militaristic commitment to personal freedom (think Ron Swanson), thus LN. It might be best to factor the NPC's in before putting Telias and I into gov't. I'd imagine that their ability scores will be more polar and we would avoid vacation penalties for when we feel like stretching our legs and kicking ass.
My 4th lvl ability point is going to Wis, the rest are for Dex if that helps.
It also may be worthwhile to consider that Ganit doesn't plan on sticking around after the charter has been fulfilled. I think he's tried to make it clear that he wants to distance himself from the idea of settling the place to begin with. For a while it could be best to consider him as a consultant depending on how the RP goes at the time... If we survive...
It also may be worthwhile to consider that Ganit doesn't plan on sticking around after the charter has been fulfilled. I think he's tried to make it clear that he wants to distance himself from the idea of settling the place to begin with. For a while it could be best to consider him as a consultant depending on how the RP goes at the time... If we survive...
I hope that you mean that in a roleplaying way, and not that we are going to be hunting for a new player. Getting good ones are hard, getting good ones who post often and stick around is even harder. You are both.
And regarding roles, heck - just read my recent posts. You have someone who is scared to death that she will kill every person she meet because someone surprises her.
Forgive me for not spending much time searching, but where can I find the Kingdom Building Rules? Are they somewhere in the OOC thread or on a website?
Definitely in a RP way. It's been a long time since I've really enjoyed a PC like I do with Ganit. Not to mention this has to be my favorite PbP campaign. If I've got 10mins to check my games this one is 1st priority. So thanks everybody (I can give out complements every now and again even though my character cant, right?)!
Basically Ganit has been hired/forced into taking the charter and serving as a guide to the actual adventurers. But since he's overly stubborn and has (believe it or not) taken a liking to the group he couldn't allow himself to abandon them out here without his help because he's come to the conclusion that you would all die without him. At this point, he's eager to complete the charter and get on with his own life. He has no interest in the Brevoy/Restov/Issia situation and would rather just sit back and watch them tear each other apart.
Forgive me for not spending much time searching, but where can I find the Kingdom Building Rules? Are they somewhere in the OOC thread or on a website?
Here are the rules that Aron posted a few weeks ago:
Also, look at the Campaign Info tab for some additional in house rules that will be used.
Damn - Ninjaed by 7 seconds.
**Claims Prize**
The way I see his political philosophy is it's a militaristic commitment to personal freedom (think Ron Swanson), thus LN.
Interesting, I would view personal freedom as purely chaotic. CG or CN probably. My view of LN is the Rules are the Rules, doesn't matter how they affect anyone. I have a LN monk and that is how he plays. Almost emotionless in some ways. If the law says you can kill, then you can kill. If it says all women are to be treated as second class citizens, so be it. Think of Cheliax without the desire to always interpret the rule to cause the greatest harm to someone else.
I think that's the neat thing about LN. It can basically absorb bits and pieces of most other alignments and conglomerate them into a whole. You choose your principles or a moral code or even drafted laws, then you live by them as strictly as possible.
That's just my interpretation at least.
Funny thing about Telias is that he is one of Erastil's faithful.
Trick is if you were to try and align him politically you'd probably find him on the far end of libertarian. Some government is necessary as long as it doesn't come and bother im when he hasn't done anything to nobody.
RP wise you'd ahve to do a lot of convincing to make Telias fill a government position. And he'd probably do a lousy job out of spite.
Ok, so that is decided, Telias will fill the role of Weird Uncle which nobody talks about.
Funny thing about Telias is that he is one of Erastil's faithful.
Trick is if you were to try and align him politically you'd probably find him on the far end of libertarian. Some government is necessary as long as it doesn't come and bother im when he hasn't done anything to nobody.RP wise you'd ahve to do a lot of convincing to make Telias fill a government position. And he'd probably do a lousy job out of spite.
Just like Ron Swanson. I just wish this was a better quality video but NBC ate most of them up.
I think that can generate a meta issue. AFAIK, most of this adventure path is about managing a fledging colony; with some side-adventures but focusing mainly on dealing with these issues. Besides belonging in a party, all the characters belong to something else, something greater than the individuals.
I fear that antisocial characters who don't participate in the decision-making and kingdom stuff are bound to become bored (since much focuses on that).
AND YOU ATE HER LUNCH, AND YOU GAVE HER A LANDMINE?
Laughed my @$$ out. I think you have just convinced me to watch that show.
"Uh-Oh! Capital gains tax." *BITE*
Ron is about 85% why I love that show.
In response to your foreseen issue (knowing that I am part of the problem bunch), I have an idea of where this AP is taking us but I don't want it to feel as contrived as it would for my PC to simply spring up and embrace the whole thing despite the majority of what's been written for him up to this point. I can think of reasons to make it work OOC but I'd prefer to let them come up organically during some old fashion role play. Making big decisions just to "go with it" seems kinda lame, IMO.
I get the point :)
I just felt bad that maybe 2 out of 6 players wouldn't join in on the whole "Kingdom" side of the adventure.
The simple facts it that we could create a CE country. It would have lots of loyalty and economy - not so much stability. The characters are the same way. We can just as easily fill the roles with the NPCs. Until we get to the point where there is a real problem, keep playing your characters as they are. So far it has been fun - bunch of misfits that we are.