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I apologize in advance because I think this must have been answered before.
I was just reading the article on Asmodeus in Pathfinder: Mother of Flies. I wanted to read up on Asmodeus so I could better play my character PFS character Iago Issildur, a cleric of Asmodeus.
I stumbled across something I wasn’t expecting. I had to read to passage twice to make sure I was reading it correctly. It talked about how and why paladins would and could serve Asmodeus and why the arch fiend would support them.
Is this an error?
From my admittedly limited understanding the article mentioned that Asmodeus is Lawful Evil, and his portfolio is Tyranny, Slavery, Pride and Contracts with his domains being evil fire law magic and trickery. To me this seems entirely incongruous with a paladin.
I appologize for resurrecting a dead horse to be kicked…..but, this is some sort of mistake isn’t it? Paladins serving Asmodeus?
This reaction seems to be based on a mis-understanding of how Paladin Class Features work, and how that relates to `serving` Asmodeus.
Paladins don`t get spells or anything else `granted` to them by any diety. `Serving` a diety isn`t anything different for a Paladin than a Fighter or Rogue. The whole article explicitly points out that the entire outcome of this inevitably leads to the fall of the Paladin in question. I don`t think anybody familiar with Asmodeus would have a hard time believing that such an outcome wouldn`t be pleasing to him. In other words, Asmodeus thru whatever ways, draws a Paladin towards the Dark Side, probably with alot of subterfuge... there`s no reason they can`t be `serving` him unknowingly, or `serving` him by being forced to make catch 20 `choices` which ultimately serve Asmodeus, etc. Heck, if you are hung up on that wording, what happens when a Paladin is volunteering his time in hamburger joint run by the local orphanage, and Asmodeus walks in and orders a burger? Yup, he`s SERVING Asmodeus. That phrase has nothing to do with the source of Paladins powers, so it`s just not as problematic as it may seem, unless one thinks Asmodeus never corrupts Paladins, or that he can do so only instantaneously and not over time.
Yeah that was rules a mistake, you can not be and stay LG and worship a god so far removed from those Ideas. You can't serve a god that is evil and stay with in the paladins code, heck ya can't serve a TN or even a CG god and stay LG.
If you serve a god it must be within One step of LG or over time you stop being lawful god or being a true worshiper of that god. You can not be both.
The one step rule is for Clerics whose Class Abilities are granted by their Deity.
The article never even mentioned worship AFAIK, much less being a `true worshipper`.
The article specifically mentioned the outcome is falling as a Paladin, which usually happens when you do non-LG stuff.
In other words `Paladins of Asmodeus` is a specific way to fall as a Paladin,
not an indefinitely self-consistent valid path of Paladin-hood that Paladins will follow from 1st to 20th level.
The one step rule is common sense. You simply can not be devote to a god whose ideas are so alien to you as you can not see eye to eye on most things.
Lg and CG have as much in common as LG and LE, you simply can not stay an AL so fair removed from your god and stay devotee to them. Its not a hard rule but you simply can not do both. You will fall as you become more like your gods teachings or your devotion to your god will fall to the wayside
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Mikaze, thank you. I’m glad it was retconned out.
The god claw? That’s an order of hell-knights right?
Quandry thank you for your thoughtful response.
I can see how Asmodeus would relish in the long game of luring a paladin down the path to his front gates in hell. The way to hell after all is “paved with good intentions”. I think also the ends justifying the means concept or “necessary evil” , would be an excellent string Asomdeus would use to tug on to gradually shift a Paladin away from the light, and to his “warm “ embrace.
I do however disagree with your point about paladins not getting their spells and powers from any deity. If I may copy and paste the first two sentences in the core rule book below the Heading for the section on the Paladin class
“Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and law- bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve.”
Seeker for shadowlight, yes that seems to only be common sense, the one step business with alignment.
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The one step rule is common sense.
Common Sense and the rules don't have a lot in common -- the Paladin is supposed to 'respect rightful authority' -- so a God that's been around longer than most isn't rightful authority? And how is the paladin supposed to respect it if he is?
And at what point worship? Is a single prayer worship? How about two? What about a prayer to a god specifically about a subject that is under that god's influence (say praying to Pharasma to guide souls safely)?
Ok Abraham here is why. Yes you can pray to many gods, most folks do. But if ya are devote to a god they are your man god. The one you think of as mostly right , the one that speaks to you and whose teaching touch your soul and you find agreement with.
You can not form such a deep soul touching devotion to a god who you simply can not at lest understand. The big A has his good points {lawful anyhow} but so does many CG gods. Yet if you really and truly are devoted to them you try to live as they would want you to. With the Big A you simply can not be good and live by his teachings, with some gods such as a well loved drunk god, you can not stay lawful and really believe in what he teaches.
Although you can retcon it again if you want. The paladin now has an Anti-Paladin archetype (link).
Although you can retcon it again if you want. The paladin now has an Anti-Paladin archetype (link).
Which is CE so really fits the BIG A no better then the paladin.
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I think the original article is a flavorful take on mere mortals not knowing everything about the gods.
So, you're a LG Chelaxian raised in the Church of Asmodeus, maybe you dumped Int since you want to bump up Cha and Str as a paladin. You are kind of a heretic in that you think all these LE people running around are "crazy" for being so mean to the Father of Contracts, Elder God of Cheliax, Lawful Ruler and all around great guy (you were raised to believe) Asmodeus. Asmodeus in the meantime says, cool, what great LE can I bring about via this LG vessel?
It's gearing up for a fall or a deity change as the campaign progresses and the higher level paladin finds out more about the "true" church and the "true" nature of his chosen god.
But really, the big thing is that mortals shouldn't know all the ins and outs of the gods (unless they have high Kn: Religion and Kn: Planes maybe) - myths and lies and propaganda abound in a pantheistic society. Just because you the player read it in a book doesn't mean the character should know the same.
YMMV.
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The mention of paladins of Asmodeus is probably the most embarrasing flavor error Paizo's published, in my opinion. It's a development error—references to paladins worshiping Asmodeus should have been cut.
It's true that the "within one alignment step of your god" is for clerics, but even though it's not spelled out that way for anyone who worships a deity... if you AREN'T within one alignment step of a deity, you're basically doing one of two things:
1) You're worshiping and serving your deity in a way that the deity approves and won't get you labeled a blasphemer, and thus you are, by default, roleplaying a character who is within one step of your deity's alignment anyway, regardless of whatever you wrote down on your character sheet, and so you should just change your alignment to one of those. If that means you're no longer lawful good, you're no longer a paladin. Case closed.
2) You're NOT worshiping and NOT serving your deity in a way that the deity and its church approves—by striving closer to lawful and good in order to retain your paladinhood, you're going against the scriptures of your deity, who wants worshipers who are more chaotic, more evil, or just plain neutral. You're in an organization, but you're blatantly NOT following the organization's rules. You're being disruptive, rebellious, heretical, and blasphemous. None of those are lawful acts—they're all chaotic acts, and as such should drop you from lawful good and paladinhood very very very quickly. You shift toward chaotic alignment and are no longer a paladin. Case closed.
The only way you could have a paladin of Asmodeus is if you removed the requirement that a paladin has to be lawful good. And in my opinion, that'd be like saying a fighter can't use weapons or a wizard can't cast spells. Being lawful good is the fundamental core of what a paladin is in this game (real-world "paladins" as examples of non-lawful good behavior are irrelevant), and if you remove that, you should just remove the entire class from your game and replace them with cavaliers or martial clerics or rangers or inquisitors.
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Personally, I don't have a problem with a "heritical" LG paladin of Asmodeus, but James makes the decisions about what's allowed in Golarion. :)
@Elyas: AFAIK, it´s been stated by Paizo that Paladins don´t need to worship any God in any way.
Some of the wording in the class may clash with that, at least thematically for sure, and that´s probably down to 3.5 heritage that wasn´t edited out, and that Paizo´s rule is about GOLARION which is a distinct thing from the Core Rules. See Golarion´s lack of Clerics of ideals, etc.
I´m still not aware of anything in the article that mentioned worship per se, as opposed to serving hamburgers (or killing Demons, etc). I´m pretty sure that a Paladin that was disposed to all Lawful Gods wouldn´t be answered by Asmodeus with anything that would directly suggest that Asmodeus opposed their Lawful Good crusade. Asmodeus would be smarter than that. Let the mortals think they are on their path to heaven... Too bad Big A already has every angle sewn up so their is no escape of his grasp ;-)
As mentioned, Hellknight Paladins are definitely a viable option. They like killing Devils and Demons alike. I think the thing about Cheliax is that although it is very LE infused, Devil-binding is profuse, and Asmodeus worship is in fact established, tons of people who fit the mold there in fact DON´T worship Asmodeus. But don´t worry... that´s all part of Big A´s plan too... ;-P
...with some gods such as a well loved drunk god, you can not stay lawful and really believe in what he teaches.
I disagree with this, actually. Chaotic kinda violates the 1 step rule, because chaotic deities are so individualistic by nature. A follower of the Lucky Drunk, for example, could choose to respect tradition, honor his word, believe in promoting the societal good, prefer order, etc. and so long as he isn't forcing those ideals on others, he's not violating Cayden's teachings. So you can be LG and still follow Cayden Cailean.
Unless you are saying that lawful inherently means to demand others respect those ideals as well.
...with some gods such as a well loved drunk god, you can not stay lawful and really believe in what he teaches.I disagree with this, actually. Chaotic kinda violates the 1 step rule, because chaotic deities are so individualistic by nature. A follower of the Lucky Drunk, for example, could choose to respect tradition, honor his word, believe in promoting the societal good, prefer order, etc. and so long as he isn't forcing those ideals on others, he's not violating Cayden's teachings. So you can be LG and still follow Cayden Cailean.
Unless you are saying that lawful inherently means to demand others respect those ideals as well.
If you truly fallowed Cayden Cailean, you would happily get so drunk you do not recall anything you did. He wants you to party, free slaves , do the best ya can even if ya got to break, bend or throw out the rules and pretty much have a good time. These are actions that do not sit well with Lawful types. Doing the best ya can even if ya don't do it within the rules is NG at best
If you are LG and act LG then you really are not a true believer in what Cayden teaches, if however you act and believe in how right his teachings are you are not really living LG much less a paladin code.
Cheliax's government does not disallow paladins or clerics of other gods or even temples of other gods. They are welcomed, they are watched and they know who really is in charge.And to be honest such a dishonest paladin would not stay one long nor would he be able to hide what he was if he did.
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If you truly fallowed Cayden Cailean, you would happily get so drunk you do not recall anything you did.
Based on the PathfinderWiki, "Despite the church's promotion of drink, the faithful draw a line between drinking for merriment and drinking to excess. The latter is seen as the abuse of one of the deity's favored things, and as such is frowned upon." Attributed to SKR from Children of the Void.
Side note, IIRC, doesn't one of the new Faiths of... books have information for Paladins of Cayden Cailean?
He can not have them, Ask James above. Paladin gods must be within on step in Golarion. But you do not have to have a god.
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Which is CE so really fits the BIG A no better then the paladin.Although you can retcon it again if you want. The paladin now has an Anti-Paladin archetype (link).
True, but the Antipaladin can be made Lawful Evil pretty easily -- he's really more about fighting Good than fighting Law. In fact you could just make him generically evil with four slight modifications:
Under Fiendish Boon change the line "This functions as summon monster III, except the duration is permanent and the antipaladin can only gain the service of a single creature and that creature must either have the chaotic and evil subtypes or it must be a fiendish animal." to "This functions as summon monster III, except the duration is permanent and the antipaladin can only gain the service of a single creature and that creature must either have the evil subtype or it must be a fiendish animal."
Under Code of Conduct change the line "An antipaladin must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if he willingly and altruistically commits good acts." to "An antipaladin must be of an evil alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if he willingly and altruistically commits good acts."
Under Associates change the line "An antipaladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are chaotic evil." to "An antipaladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are evil."
Presto. Antipaladin is now a generic champion of evil, rather than specifically Chaotic Evil. All of his other powers are unaffected.
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Ultimate Magic (first edition printing) introduces the concept of Separatist clerics (page 32) which it seems to me might be used as a basis for anyone wanting to devise a Lawful Good paladin of a Lawful Evil deity.
The example in Ultimate Magic (with regard to Separatist clerics) specifically cites a cleric of Lawful Good alignment who serves a Neutral Good deity but could take the Lawful domain even though that cleric's deity isn't Lawful.Okay, it's a bigger step from Lawful Evil to Lawful Good than from Neutral Good to Lawful Good, but if a GM's looking for somewhere in the rules to start from with an eye towards their home game...
The separatist (which I wish we would have named the "heretic") is a cleric archetype. Paladins can't be separatists.
If someone REALLY wants to play a Lawful Evil paladin, check out Dragon #312.
*leaves Paladin of Asmodeus-shaped cookies for James Jacobs to devour in case he find the reoccurence of this topic depressing*
Ok Abraham here is why. Yes you can pray to many gods, most folks do. But if ya are devote to a god they are your man god. The one you think of as mostly right , the one that speaks to you and whose teaching touch your soul and you find agreement with.
You can not form such a deep soul touching devotion to a god who you simply can not at lest understand. The big A has his good points {lawful anyhow} but so does many CG gods. Yet if you really and truly are devoted to them you try to live as they would want you to. With the Big A you simply can not be good and live by his teachings, with some gods such as a well loved drunk god, you can not stay lawful and really believe in what he teaches.
And again -- it comes down to the definitions of the words. For you worships is a total commitment and full on connection with the deity in question (a bit like marriage honestly) -- where as many people worship... but not to that level and are quite willing to change for a better deal with a different dealersh... I mean deity.
some of my Jewish friends put it like this, "Christians are the way they are because they are coming to God and asking him for salvation -- We Jews are the way we are because God came to us offering it. Christians have the weaker bargaining position against God... we have the stronger, since he has to please us to get us to do what he wants in the way he wants. Why do you think we went astray so often in history? We were shopping around looking at the other deals."
Now a 'traditional' paladin isn't likely to do that -- I fully agree -- however please note the question was about paladin's following Asmodeus -- this could be as simple as being at the World Wound and obeying orders from a superior that happens to be Chelaxian and a worshiper of Asmodeus. By following his superior's orders the paladin is following Asmodeus -- why? He's offers a greater chance of success against the greater evil (the World Wound).
A pantheistic paladin could include some gods in his pantheon that normally wouldn't be something he would specifically ascribe to himself -- (Pharasma again, or Nethys for less extreme examples) -- he's still worshiping them.
Also worship doesn't have to be the deep soul binding experience you are talking about -- simply offering tribute to a god for his favor in a sector under his influence is worship -- and even rightful and good according to a paladin since it is respecting proper authority. And it might not be your "Take me I'm yours!" offering to a god... but its still worship.
And again, the actual subject is not worshipping, not even `following`, but `serving` (though that`s pretty close to following).
What does the Paladin Class say?
Paizo made it clear that Paladins DO work alongside known evil if it is for the greater good.
Abe`s scenario of working with the forces of Asmodeus to fight Demons is practically out of the Core Rules themself.
I think the whole point is that there is no easy set of rules that Paladins can stick to and will always end up being right... There`s too many gray areas and catch-22 situations that can find them and they can`t avoid, but can end up creating `in´s´ for characters like Asmodeus. And that`s part of the Paladin´s battle... That`s not to say that they still can´t win that battle.
Does the godclaw have paladins? If so to some extent they are 'following/serving/worshiping' Asmodeus since he is part of the Godclaw set up.
Doesn't mean he's the biggest part for the paladin... but he's there all the same.
If you truly fallowed Cayden Cailean, you would happily get so drunk you do not recall anything you did.Based on the PathfinderWiki, "Despite the church's promotion of drink, the faithful draw a line between drinking for merriment and drinking to excess. The latter is seen as the abuse of one of the deity's favored things, and as such is frowned upon." Attributed to SKR from Children of the Void.
Side note, IIRC, doesn't one of the new Faiths of... books have information for Paladins of Cayden Cailean?
Faiths of Purity covers paladin codes for Erastil, Iomedae, Sarenrae, Shelyn, and Torag. No paladins for CC. :)
Does the godclaw have paladins? If so to some extent they are 'following/serving/worshiping' Asmodeus since he is part of the Godclaw set up.
Doesn't mean he's the biggest part for the paladin... but he's there all the same.
the Godclaw is a pantheon of the 5 gods that have law in their portfolio, it is a Hellknight Order
the Godclaw is a pantheon of the 5 gods that have law in their portfolio, it is a Hellknight OrderDoes the godclaw have paladins? If so to some extent they are 'following/serving/worshiping' Asmodeus since he is part of the Godclaw set up.
Doesn't mean he's the biggest part for the paladin... but he's there all the same.
... which doesn't mean they can't have paladins.
the Godclaw is a pantheon of the 5 gods that have law in their portfolio, it is a Hellknight OrderDoes the godclaw have paladins? If so to some extent they are 'following/serving/worshiping' Asmodeus since he is part of the Godclaw set up.
Doesn't mean he's the biggest part for the paladin... but he's there all the same.
Welll yes and no. They have taken the teaching of the 5 lawful gods and constructed a "Divine law code" clerics of the god claw always come from one of those 5 gods. If a paladin of the godclaw had a god it would also be one of those 5.
The separatist (which I wish we would have named the "heretic")....
Hear, hear.
The separatist (which I wish we would have named the "heretic")....Hear, hear.
Yeah that would have been a much better name.
Someone objected because you already have a heretic archetype for inquisitor, I'm guessing?
Someone objected because you already have a heretic archetype for inquisitor, I'm guessing?Yup; even though since a cleric can't take the inquisitor archetype there'd be no real confusion if a cleric archetype was called a heretic.
Unless they multiclassed cleric/inquisitor, and took the archetype for each. "I'm playing a heretic 5/heretic 6. I think I'll take a level in heretic next..."
There comes a question of whether a paladin is actively powered by an outside force or inwardly powered by personal faith and embodying some platonic ideal of goodness and virtue.
Since Asmodeus is a god of Trickery, I'd be heartily surprised if some of his religious teachings written up for converting people to his faith didn't portray him as a nice guy. Then imagine some idealistic sort taking those at face value and worshiping "good guy Asmodeus" the same way there's the holy knight of Tash in C.S. Lewis's THE LAST BATTLE who got all the bits about being a paladin of Aslan right except for calling him the right name and imagining him as a lion instead of some nasty vulture-headed thing.
If the "Holy Text of Asmodeus" is really just a mish-mash of Iomedae and Sarenrae scriptures with "Praise Asmodeus!" pasted on top, that makes for a perfectly adequate explanation for where you get a heretical paladin of Asmodeus.
Admittedly, once they got enlightened to the true nature of their belief, they'd probably convert to Iomedae or Sarenrae, but I think keeping paladinhood is more about honoring the spirit of true chivalry and knighthood rather than getting all the words right.
There comes a question of whether a paladin is actively powered by an outside force or inwardly powered by personal faith and embodying some platonic ideal of goodness and virtue.
Since Asmodeus is a god of Trickery, I'd be heartily surprised if some of his religious teachings written up for converting people to his faith didn't portray him as a nice guy. Then imagine some idealistic sort taking those at face value and worshiping "good guy Asmodeus" the same way there's the holy knight of Tash in C.S. Lewis's THE LAST BATTLE who got all the bits about being a paladin of Aslan right except for calling him the right name and imagining him as a lion instead of some nasty vulture-headed thing.
If the "Holy Text of Asmodeus" is really just a mish-mash of Iomedae and Sarenrae scriptures with "Praise Asmodeus!" pasted on top, that makes for a perfectly adequate explanation for where you get a heretical paladin of Asmodeus.
Admittedly, once they got enlightened to the true nature of their belief, they'd probably convert to Iomedae or Sarenrae, but I think keeping paladinhood is more about honoring the spirit of true chivalry and knighthood rather than getting all the words right.
That knight of Tash is an interesting example. Especially as Aslan took him in anyhow. (Sorry if that spoiled things for anyone who hasn't read a decades old book. BTW, Vader is Luke's father, too...)
The Golarion equivalent would be a paladin claiming to serve Asmodeus, but upholding all the tenants of Sarenrae or Iomedae. When it comes down to it, he's a paladin of Iomedae with some naming issues, not a paladin of Asmodeus.
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Unless they multiclassed cleric/inquisitor, and took the archetype for each. "I'm playing a heretic 5/heretic 6. I think I'll take a level in heretic next..."Someone objected because you already have a heretic archetype for inquisitor, I'm guessing?Yup; even though since a cleric can't take the inquisitor archetype there'd be no real confusion if a cleric archetype was called a heretic.
Well... the way we annotate NPC classes in print would make this not an issue. Such an NPC would be listed as a:
"Male human cleric (heretic) 6/inquisitor (heretic) 6"
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Unless they multiclassed cleric/inquisitor, and took the archetype for each. "I'm playing a heretic 5/heretic 6. I think I'll take a level in heretic next..."Someone objected because you already have a heretic archetype for inquisitor, I'm guessing?Yup; even though since a cleric can't take the inquisitor archetype there'd be no real confusion if a cleric archetype was called a heretic.Well... the way we annotate NPC classes in print would make this not an issue. Such an NPC would be listed as a:
"Male human cleric (heretic) 6/inquisitor (heretic) 6"
That reminds me of those Necromancer/Cleric/True Necromancer/Dread Necromancer Necromancers from the 3.5 era :)
There comes a question of whether a paladin is actively powered by an outside force or inwardly powered by personal faith and embodying some platonic ideal of goodness and virtue.
Since Asmodeus is a god of Trickery, I'd be heartily surprised if some of his religious teachings written up for converting people to his faith didn't portray him as a nice guy. Then imagine some idealistic sort taking those at face value and worshiping "good guy Asmodeus" the same way there's the holy knight of Tash in C.S. Lewis's THE LAST BATTLE who got all the bits about being a paladin of Aslan right except for calling him the right name and imagining him as a lion instead of some nasty vulture-headed thing.
If the "Holy Text of Asmodeus" is really just a mish-mash of Iomedae and Sarenrae scriptures with "Praise Asmodeus!" pasted on top, that makes for a perfectly adequate explanation for where you get a heretical paladin of Asmodeus.
Admittedly, once they got enlightened to the true nature of their belief, they'd probably convert to Iomedae or Sarenrae, but I think keeping paladinhood is more about honoring the spirit of true chivalry and knighthood rather than getting all the words right.
That knight of Tash is an interesting example. Especially as Aslan took him in anyhow. (Sorry if that spoiled things for anyone who hasn't read a decades old book. BTW, Vader is Luke's father, too...)
The Golarion equivalent would be a paladin claiming to serve Asmodeus, but upholding all the tenants of Sarenrae or Iomedae. When it comes down to it, he's a paladin of Iomedae with some naming issues, not a paladin of Asmodeus.
That could be easily taken care of with a Cheliaxian regional Trait or two, one for the ditzy types who get the spirit of being a paladin right while getting the words wrong and another for the secret Iomedae and Sarenrae paladins who know exactly which goddesses they're serving but manage to hide it under Asmodeaan lip service so they can continue to serve in Cheliax.