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i'm sure no one's ever even thought of using them, but how do bolas work ? standard ranged attack to hit, and then a trip CMB at range?
so ... bab + dex to hit, and then bab + str to trip from range ?
or bab + dex to hit, andthen bab + dex because its a ranged CMB maneuver?
or would you need agile maneuvers feat for that ?
just curious.
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i'm sure no one's ever even thought of using them, but how do bolas work ? standard ranged attack to hit, and then a trip CMB at range?
so ... bab + dex to hit, and then bab + str to trip from range ?or bab + dex to hit, andthen bab + dex because its a ranged CMB maneuver?
or would you need agile maneuvers feat for that ?just curious.
First of all, you don't do a regular attack and then a trip attempt. Tripping is a combat maneuver check (d20+CMB versus target's CMD) as always.
As for ability scores used, by strict RAW your CMB does not switch between STR and DEX based on whether it's a ranged or melee combat maneuver. So unless you have Agile Maneuvers or a similar ability, using bolas to make a ranged trip attempt will use your ordinary, STR-based CMB just like any other combat maneuver.
EDIT: To be clear, I think 90% of GMs would let you use your DEX for bolas-tripping. Just letting you know what's in the RAW.
i'm sure no one's ever even thought of using them, but how do bolas work ? standard ranged attack to hit, and then a trip CMB at range?
so ... bab + dex to hit, and then bab + str to trip from range ?or bab + dex to hit, andthen bab + dex because its a ranged CMB maneuver?
or would you need agile maneuvers feat for that ?just curious.
Standard ranged attack to hit isn't right as armor shouldn't help. Even a ranged touch attack isn't justified by the rules-as-written.
By the rules-as-written you simply make a CMB vs. CMD check, unless you have a feat that let's you use another attribute. Your to-hit and to trip rolls are combined in the check no need to roll separately.
And of course if you don't have Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bola then your CMB comes with a -4 penalty.
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i'm sure no one's ever even thought of using them, but how do bolas work ? standard ranged attack to hit, and then a trip CMB at range?
so ... bab + dex to hit, and then bab + str to trip from range ?or bab + dex to hit, andthen bab + dex because its a ranged CMB maneuver?
or would you need agile maneuvers feat for that ?just curious.
Standard ranged attack to hit isn't right as armor shouldn't help. Even a ranged touch attack isn't justified by the rules-as-written.
By the rules-as-written you simply make a CMB vs. CMD check, unless you have a feat that let's you use another attribute. Your to-hit and to trip rolls are combined in the check no need to roll separately.
It just feels weird not rolling to hit with the bolas first before making a check to see if they trip...
and it just feels weird making a standard CMB check with a ranged weapon ( bab + str modifier ) at range. =/
Like its so counter intuitive, its a marvel that its not explained more in the entry for the weapon.
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yeah, i just found a good thread that points out that CMB checks are attack rolls, and use all the modifiers that would modify the weapon.
sort of like if you had weapon finesse, and were attempting a disarm with a rapier. you'd use your dex mod instead of strength on the CMB check because you use your dexerity on the attack roll.
so it'd be bab + DEX to trip with the bolas at range, nonproficiency and range penalties apply, so do weapon focus, improved trip, etc. per all the usual CMB rigamaraole.
I feel placated since the CMB check to trip them is the attack roll / to hit roll all in one.
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yeah, i just found a good thread that points out that CMB checks are attack rolls, and use all the modifiers that would modify the weapon.
sort of like if you had weapon finesse, and were attempting a disarm with a rapier. you'd use your dex mod instead of strength on the CMB check because you use your dexerity on the attack roll.
so it'd be bab + DEX to trip with the bolas at range, nonproficiency and range penalties apply, so do weapon focus, improved trip, etc. per all the usual CMB rigamaraole.
I feel placated since the CMB check to trip them is the attack roll / to hit roll all in one.
Remember that "modifier" refers to a + or - to a number, not just anything that changes something. A combat maneuver check is an attack roll except it still has its own rules on certain points. You still use your regular (STR-based) CMB for maneuvers, even if you have Weapon Finesse (otherwise what's the point of Agile Maneuvers?) or at range. The catch-all description of maneuvers as attack rolls does not override the rules explicitly stated for maneuvers. If the assertions in your above post were correct, there wouldn't even be a Combat Maneuver Bonus stat.
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mmh good point. it would negate the point of the Agile Maneuvers feat.
And the CMB stat.
For your edification: when asking rules questions on these boards, be wary of responses that include something like "X is Y". I've noticed lots of well-meaning people will read something like "X is treated as Y for purposes of Z" (or other conditional or partial relationships) and erroneously shorten it to "X is Y" and make incorrect rulings as a result. Basically an innocent mistake resulting from not enough attention to detail, but it can have big consequences. Watch out for that (both in reading rules and reading answers to your questions) and you'll do quite well. :)
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I know this is a realllyyy old thread, but there are some problems here.
Bolas DO use your Dex on ranged trip attempts. Weapon Finesse IS applied to trip/disarm attempts with weapons affected by Weapon Finesse.
This does NOT affect Agile Maneuvers, as that feat allows you to apply your Dex modifier to ALL CMB checks, not just weapons listen in the Weapon Finesse feat.
The reason I'm even on this thread, is I'm trying to find out why there is a damage listing for bolas.
When you make your ranged trip attempt, do you deal damage if you're successful? Do you have to choose whether to just deal damage with an attack OR to trip with a combat maneuver? Do you have to make a ranged attack roll, and then attempt a trip maneuver as a free action afterward (I think what the OP was asking)?
This is pretty old but it seems it was left a little unclear...
"FAQ/Errata
If I have Weapon Finesse, can I apply my Dex bonus to my combat maneuver checks instead of my Strength bonus??
It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).
The Agile Maneuvers feat applies to all combat maneuvers, not just disarm, sunder, and trip, so it is still a useful option for a Dex-based creature that uses combat maneuvers."
That was for Melee weapons. That being said, the bolas are ranged weapons and would use DEX for the Trip maneuver by default as well as range penalties and weapon bonuses to the CMB attack roll when making the Trip, such as Weapon Focus or magical enhancements.
While it makes sense to me that Bolas should deal their indicated damage plus STR mod(thrown weapon) on a successful Trip, the Trip weapon property says you don't fall prone on a failed trip attempt, you just drop your weapon... NOT; you get to make a Trip attempt on a successful attack roll. Therefore, you must decide if you are throwing your Bolas to deal damage OR to make a Trip attempt.
This is a tricky wicket. Tyrant Lizard King is correct (as well as others who have posted the same. A bola is a ranged weapon, which uses Dex for its accuracy ("to hit") bonus. The FAQ essentially states that when performing disarm, sunder, and trip maneuvers, the attacker applies the standard attack bonus, as it applies to the weapon. Since bola are ranged, this means the CMB for this specific weapon (and the lethal version, by association) will be BAB + DEX + any other applicable modifiers. And you have to choose whether you are attacking for damage or performing a maneuver.
That last part is the one, from a (dare I say it?) realistic perspective, that doesn't make sense. How do you throw a bola to simply deliver damage? A bola is specifically designed to entangle an opponent. The weapon is spun about prior to its release. When released as part of the throw, it is spinning through the air. If it strikes its target (either by one of the weights, or by the ropes connecting the weights), the bola continues spinning, wrapping the ropes around the target. Eventually those ropes come to an end, bashing the target with the weights used to give the weapon its spin (and weight necessary to throw a rope to any effect). This weapon needs better rules designed to work with its intended function and overarching results.
First, a bolas should be able to do more than just trip. Bolas should be able to perform ranged trip and grapple maneuvers. When thrown, the player should have to decide whether they are attempting a ranged trip or ranged grapple maneuver. Are you going for the legs, or are you going for the torso? A standard ranged attack should not be an option at all. If the character chooses trip, the attack targets the legs. If they choose grapple, it targets the torso.
Ranged Combat Maneuver: A weapon which can perform ranged combat maneuvers substitutes the character's dexterity bonus for their strength bonus when calculating CMB. All other effects which modify combat maneuvers apply, as normal.
Bolas, Standard and Lethal
A bolas is a set of weights, usually two to four, connected by lengths of thin rope or cord.
Benefit: You can use a bolas to make a ranged trip or grapple combat maneuver against an opponent. You can't be tripped during your own trip attempt when using a bolas. A bolas may never be used to perform a standard ranged attack.
Bolas Trip: If a ranged trip combat maneuver with a bolas is successful, the target is subject to the standard rules for being tripped. Additionally, the target acquires the entangled condition. Removing this condition requires a full-round action and a DC 15 Escape Artist check, a DC 20 Strength check, or dealing 5 points of damage to the ropes with fire, acid, or a slashing weapon. Creatures which are more than one size category larger than the attacker or which are immune to trip do not subject to the trip or entangle effects.
Bolas Grapple: If a ranged grapple combat maneuver with a bolas is successful, the target finds its arms pinned and cannot perform any action requiring the use of their arms or hands, such as attacking with weapons, using a shield, or casting spells with somatic components. This special form of grapple does not restrict mobility. The target may remove this restraint by spending a full-round action and succeeding a DC 20 Escape Artist check, DC 25 Strength check, or dealing 5 points of damage to the ropes, as above. The target may only utilize one-handed implements to damage the ropes which were in hand at the time of the grapple. Creatures which are more than one size category larger than the attacker, are immune to the grapple condition, or have no arms (such as most quadrupedal animals), are not be subject to this effect.
Bolas Damage: Normal and lethal bolas may not be used to perform standard attacks. Any successful successful ranged combat maneuver (trip or grapple) from a bolas automatically inflicts the weapon's damage upon the target, following the standard rules for thrown weapon damage. Bolas do not do continual damage, and targets which are not subject to the effects of the above combat maneuvers are still subject to the damage of the weapon if the maneuver ATTEMPT is successful.
Weapon Feature(s): trip (ranged), grapple (ranged)
Yes, I realize this is very wordy and should likely be trimmed back a bit, but this method would allow the bolas (and lethal bolas) to function in the manner for which they were designed.