Nothing ruins a horror campaign faster than having to go back and do two days of ability damage healing after your second encounter. Horror thrives on a slow building of atmosphere, punctuating by moments of terror, not mechanical effects like this one. Things that force you to go back to town repeatedly are probably not good game design.
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Every complaint/attack fired wildly at Paizo in this thread should have instead been directed towards one person only: your GM.
It is your GM's job to make sure you have fun in a D&D game, not the creators of the material your GM uses. Your GM is not a slave to the stat blocks Paizo publishes, and if he/she is then they should not be, plain and simple.
Go to your GM and whine that you can't handle the ability damage, and hopefully they'll make the game more enjoyable for you.
All this complaining about ability damage in this AP reinforces my decision to run this AP using 4E rules instead.
All this complaining about ability damage in this AP reinforces my decision to run this AP using 4E rules instead.
Any conversion advice?
Personally I have never had any problems with ability damage in my games (except for my players frustration at all the poison and disease in serpent skull :D), but I can see that some players would find it cumbersome.
The easiest solution would be to just convert the ability damage to regular damage. While this takes away some of the danger and flavor of what ability damage represents, it is much easier to calculate. Lesser restoration and similar spells would still be useful for healing adverse conditions. Maybe add a condition to various ailments in addition to damage. Poison could make you sickened, disease staggered etc. and use the original DC of the poison or disease to ignore it.
But if you are looking for an official revision of the rules I think you are out of luck. Most people I've seen on the boards and that I know IRL have never complained about these rules AFAIK.
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All this complaining about ability damage in this AP reinforces my decision to run this AP using 4E rules instead.This is an excellent plan.
@Gorbacz I'd rather be writting honest reviews than a zombie fanboy.
@TOZ I know! You'd think that they would fix that by now. 8)
You're entitled to your opinions. We're entitled to not treat your spoiled kid attitude seriously. The fact that one's group fails at playing D&D and/or their DM sucks does not mean that the scenario itself is crap. Also, you pretty much lost any credibility with your threats in the opening post.:)
I don't care about the percentage of ability-damage monsters in the scenario, I care about the story, the ideas, the coolness factor, memorable encounters and several other things that leave me considering Trial of the Beast a 4-star scenario, as opposed to, say Memory of Darkness or City of Seven Spears. That's called constructive criticism, as opposed as raging at the module because your last evening's game didn't go as smoothly as you like.
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I don't care about the percentage of ability-damage monsters in the scenario, I care about the story, the ideas, the coolness factor, memorable encounters and several other things that leave me considering Trial of the Beast a 4-star scenario, as opposed to, say Memory of Darkness or City of Seven Spears. That's called constructive criticism, as opposed as raging at the module because your last evening's game didn't go as smoothly as you like.
I think this is an important point, Gorbacz, and I think you're right on. Ability damage is a tool for constructing a creature, encounter, or scenario. It isn't inherently any better or worst than any other tool (OP's assertions to the contrary notwithstanding). Just like any tool in any situation, it's how the tool is used that matters. The mere existence of ability drain, in small or large amounts, means absolutely nothing about the quality of the scenario, any more than would large or small numbers of orcs, secret doors, or gold pieces. How the elements are assembled is what matters, not the elements themselves.
I have no idea if this book is 5-star, 1-star, or something in between. However, I do know snot-nosed whining when I hear it.
Most groups can handle ability damage so I doubt that is the issue. If a GM knows his group really hates something then he should fix it. I might end up running this in the next week or so. I have 2 brand new players. I am sure TSM as written will wipe them. I plan to adjust the book for the group. Reducing the ability damage is also an option.
Giving Paizo one star because you don't like a mechanic seems silly, and +1 to Gregg
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Huh. Y'know, reading through this adventure...there's not even that much ability damage/drain.
I count two encounters using this mechanic. One of these encounters can be a bit spread out (this is a Good Thing), so it's more like 'the monsters here use this mechanic.'
Slightly more detailed examination (a few numbers on enemies and save DCs) beneath the cut.
In total, I count a total of 9 creatures using ability damage/drain in this book, spread over two encounters.
I also count 5 packing poison, which I guess is near enough ability damage, but harder to pull off. Most of the poison isn't that impressive, DC or effect-wise.
Still...that's not exactly a majority, here.
EDIT: ALso, the DC on nearly all of the effects is 15 or less. That's level appropriate for primary abilities at levels 4 and 5, and low for level 6 and 7.
I'm also not a big fan of ability damage/drain (I think it's more trouble than it's worth as a mechanic), but I don't mind it as long as there's a save to avoid it.
As for the specific adventure, haven't gotten that far yet- I'm hoping it allows saves, though, since I'm playing a high-CHA Paladin.
Huh. Y'know, reading through this adventure...there's not even that much ability damage/drain.
6 wraithspawn
1 wraith
2 leech swarms
1 mummy
2 violet fungus
1 basidirond
=
14 enemies
Add in 4 wights (the OP has probably not met them yet) and you have 18 out of 70~ or so enemies.
Ability damage adds grittyness. Ability damage adds horror. Ability damage represents well special "damage" dealt by monsters that HP could not represent.
Ability damage is a good thing.
Huh. Y'know, reading through this adventure...there's not even that much ability damage/drain.
I count two encounters using this mechanic. One of these encounters can be a bit spread out (this is a Good Thing), so it's more like 'the monsters here use this mechanic.'
Slightly more detailed examination (a few numbers on enemies and save DCs) beneath the cut.
** spoiler omitted **
This is what I'm talking about as well. How did their group miss that many saves for ability damage? Are their fort saves that weak? That's a problem with individual player defenses, not the scenario.
The lack of ability damage is exactly why I stay away from 4E. Ability damage is a staple of horror. The draining of the life force or physical strength or the mind while the body maintains full vitality. I can't imagine running a horror game without ability damage to show this draining effect.
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The lack of ability damage is exactly why I stay away from 4E. Ability damage is a staple of horror. The draining of the life force or physical strength or the mind while the body maintains full vitality. I can't imagine running a horror game without ability damage to show this draining effect.
It's even more relevant at higher levels - at high levels it takes a lot of hit point damage to equal the risk felt by characters that take ability or level damage/drain.
Doesn't mean every encounter suddenly turns into a ability drainfest, it's just another tool in the toolbox.
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Huh. Y'know, reading through this adventure...there's not even that much ability damage/drain.
I count two encounters using this mechanic. One of these encounters can be a bit spread out (this is a Good Thing), so it's more like 'the monsters here use this mechanic.'
Slightly more detailed examination (a few numbers on enemies and save DCs) beneath the cut.
** spoiler omitted **
I also counted the encounters with ability damage/drain. I thought it wasn't excessive or too difficult of saves. Your DM likes to play him against the pcs -- Everyone LOSES! Unless you exaggerated your dm is a bully.
Nothing ruins a horror campaign faster than having to go back and do two days of ability damage healing after your second encounter. Horror thrives on a slow building of atmosphere, punctuating by moments of terror, not mechanical effects like this one. Things that force you to go back to town repeatedly are probably not good game design.
So your for no more running out of spells?
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I haven't played this adventure, but I have read through it, and I thought it looked rather well done. My group doesn't run Adventure Paths, although our GM sometimes gains some inspiration from them.
I've already been told that our next campaign would have a gothic/horror theme. Even though we won't be running Carrion Crown, I know my GM has always been quite fond of ability drain, so I'm going to expect that going in. In most of our games, many party members have at least some capability at healing, even if it's only a Ranger with a Wand of Cure Light Wounds.
I can get that too much of anything can be a mite annoying. I've been in games where the party gets their hats handed to them, and the usual remedy is to change up your tactics to deal with a particular threat.
As to changing your characters in midstream, if Matt isn't having fun as the Cleric, might I suggest looking at an Oracle instead? If you're already memorizing all of your 2nd level (and some 3rd level) spell slots as Lesser Restoration, you'd actually have more options as a spontaneous caster (and maybe a few more spells per day, too). Just a thought.
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This is what I'm talking about as well. How did their group miss that many saves for ability damage? Are their fort saves that weak? That's a problem with individual player defenses, not the scenario.The lack of ability damage is exactly why I stay away from 4E. Ability damage is a staple of horror. The draining of the life force or physical strength or the mind while the body maintains full vitality. I can't imagine running a horror game without ability damage to show this draining effect.
Luck is a factor. I'm not sure if you're aware, but d20s are a fairly variable type of die.
I don't get much out of ability damage that I couldn't get out of conditions like fatigued (strength/ dex) or shaken (mental stats). Con damage should honestly just be more damage.
I'm also fairly sure that croudsourcing reviews means that I can justify them however I want. An amazing number of reviews are 5 stars and publicly posted by the writer's friends without further justification. I don't see you crying about that.
Thirdly, I like being the cleric just fine. I don't like ability damage.
This is what I'm talking about as well. How did their group miss that many saves for ability damage? Are their fort saves that weak? That's a problem with individual player defenses, not the scenario.The lack of ability damage is exactly why I stay away from 4E. Ability damage is a staple of horror. The draining of the life force or physical strength or the mind while the body maintains full vitality. I can't imagine running a horror game without ability damage to show this draining effect.
Luck is a factor. I'm not sure if you're aware, but d20s are a fairly variable type of die.
I don't get much out of ability damage that I couldn't get out of conditions like fatigued (strength/ dex) or shaken (mental stats). Con damage should honestly just be more damage.
I'm also fairly sure that croudsourcing reviews means that I can justify them however I want. An amazing number of reviews are 5 stars and publicly posted by the writer's friends without further justification. I don't see you crying about that.
Thirdly, I like being the cleric just fine. I don't like ability damage.
Actually the game science dice are pretty even with the rolls.
There is only 1 5-star review out of 6. Is Jon Kines a friend of the author?The issue is that "too much" is subjective. As far as your review it is inaccurate by saying it is almost impossible for a party of four. If it is was really that difficult more people would be complaining about it. Had you said "my group did not enjoy it because of ______" people would not be coming at you like they are. A reviewer should be able to distinguish between something that he does not like because it does not fit his playstyle, and something that is just bad, and post accordingly.
As an example I like chapter 7 of AoW, but I know it is too hard for many groups. Were I to say it is only moderately difficult just because of my group that would be misleading, and when people started to chime in with all of the possible TPK points they would be right to do so.
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Huh. Y'know, reading through this adventure...there's not even that much ability damage/drain.** spoiler omitted **
6 wraithspawn - included in my count of ability damage/drain monsters
1 wraith - included in my count of ability damage/drain monsters
2 leech swarms - included in my count of ability damage/drain monsters
1 mummy - mummy causes disease, which *is* technically ability damage/drain, but rarely relevant in a combat situation. I made a call not to include disease causing monsters, because from the sounds of the OPs complaint, he was talking about more immediate penalties.
2 violet fungus - included that in my count of 'poison' monsters
1 basidirond - I missed this creature out, wasn't sure what it did. More poison?
4 wights - wights don't cause ability damage/drain, they cause negative levels. It's a different penalty that lesser restoration is no use against. I think of 'negative levels' as distinct from 'ability damage' and didn't include any monsters of that sort in my count.
"I don't like ability damage."
Hate to break it to you, but if you haven't noticed ability damage is something you run into in various forms from 1st level onwards since the inception of 3rd edition.
There's this skill on your cleric's skill list: Heal. It is a REALLY useful skill for thwarting diseases and poisons (the most common vectors for ability damage). Check it out and use it.
Since you haven't bothered to acknowledge the numerous tactical advisements given by several posters in response to your complaint, your group probably in for a bad time in this AP until your group learns to adapt and overcome.
Be glad, VERY glad, your GM is not running you through the Age of Worms. Carrion Crown is a hippy free-love-n-drugs festival that goes all year long compared to AoW.
Another idea for your group: you play some thing other than the cleric (paladin or ranger comes to mind) while any other two characters trade out for a pair of cooperative-built clerics or oracles. Two clerics/oracles "built" to work off of each other - go Team Cleric! - should get any 5-character group through almost any campaign with very little pain and suffering.
More poison?
More poison.
This is what I'm talking about as well. How did their group miss that many saves for ability damage? Are their fort saves that weak? That's a problem with individual player defenses, not the scenario.The lack of ability damage is exactly why I stay away from 4E. Ability damage is a staple of horror. The draining of the life force or physical strength or the mind while the body maintains full vitality. I can't imagine running a horror game without ability damage to show this draining effect.
Luck is a factor. I'm not sure if you're aware, but d20s are a fairly variable type of die.
I don't get much out of ability damage that I couldn't get out of conditions like fatigued (strength/ dex) or shaken (mental stats). Con damage should honestly just be more damage.
I'm also fairly sure that croudsourcing reviews means that I can justify them however I want. An amazing number of reviews are 5 stars and publicly posted by the writer's friends without further justification. I don't see you crying about that.
Thirdly, I like being the cleric just fine. I don't like ability damage.
So now you are saying the party rolled bad saves and that's why they took so much ability damage? And that is the fault of the designer?
Ooooh. Fatigue and Shaken. How horrifying and dangerous. Minor annoyance that doesn't at all simulate well having your life drained from you.
I play a ton of clerics. If they are fighting undead that are doing this to you, then it would be a better expenditure of your power to Channel Energy as an AoE attack to defeat the undead before they drain your party doing too much ability damage.
At the moment I can't even imagine what encounter your dealing with. I've read over these modules and I see nothing on the scale your complaining about. It sounds like your DM may not be running it by the book.
My best guess is this is module 4. You should be around lvl 10 or so. You should be able to cast full restoration and possibly have a few scrolls on you which would clear all ability damage with one casting.
Is your party not scouting at all? They are all wandering through the dungeons and rushing everything they see? In a horror module?
Your party needs work on their tactics. Not whining on their forums about an abilty that many of us like in the game. Maybe you need to find a different game to play if ability damage is something you don't like.
I'm very glad they kept it in. Fatigue and shaken don't scare players. Ability damage does. It simulates vampire blood drain, the life draining capacity of ghost type creatures, and other strange otherwordly forces very well. About the only thing I agree with you on is by this time some cleric or healer would have come up with a spell to heal such damage in combat. Not a 3 round spell that is utterly useless in battle against such creatures.
Huh. Y'know, reading through this adventure...there's not even that much ability damage/drain.** spoiler omitted **
Those are the creatures causing his group that much of a headache?
That list of creatures would be utterly annihilated by any group I run probably before they had a chance to attack more than one character at best. And AoE Channel Energy does a lot of damage against groups of undead creatures.
That list of monsters makes this post make even less sense given the group makeup. Are they missing every Perception check as well or simply doing no scouting? Amazing that a high offense group would have problems with that series of creatures.
a simple DC25 Perception check can avoid two of the complaints and you could simply avoid 3/4 by not going into every room...
My player's motto is "If you don't need to do it...DON'T!"
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Huh. Y'know, reading through this adventure...there's not even that much ability damage/drain.** spoiler omitted **Those are the creatures causing his group that much of a headache?
That list of creatures would be utterly annihilated by any group I run probably before they had a chance to attack more than one character at best. And AoE Channel Energy does a lot of damage against groups of undead creatures.
That list of monsters makes this post make even less sense given the group makeup. Are they missing every Perception check as well or simply doing no scouting? Amazing that a high offense group would have problems with that series of creatures.
Luck is a factor. I'm not sure if you're aware, but d20s are a fairly variable type of die.
Ok, so blame your dice for botching what should be easy-to-make Fort saves, not the critters used in the module.
I don't get much out of ability damage that I couldn't get out of conditions like fatigued (strength/ dex) or shaken (mental stats). Con damage should honestly just be more damage.
Which is going to have you the player going "oh sh*t this critters are nasty!", fatigued/exhausted/fear effects (which are easily mitigated), or ability damage/drain/penalties? What you seem to be saying is "I want stuff that is easy to apply and easy to fix in combat".
I'm also fairly sure that croudsourcing reviews means that I can justify them however I want. An amazing number of reviews are 5 stars and publicly posted by the writer's friends without further justification. I don't see you crying about that.
Better be able to prove that the 5-star reviews (of which for this AP installment there is, what, one?) are from the author's real life friends. That one *might* have been to counter your 1-star review *as a player* and not as the GM who ran it. As the player you saw the installment through the filtering of how your GM ran it, how your dice hosed you and how you died like flies. Oh wait, so far no character has died at your table as a result of the ability damage. Excepting ability drain, all the rest of it heals in short order.
Thirdly, I like being the cleric just fine. I don't like ability damage.
This is something that has been part and parcel of 3rd edition since its inception: ability damage, whether from diseases, poisons, direct creature attacks or any other afflictions and magic have been a part of the game and are going to remain a part of the game. If you're going to sling mud, sling it at the original writers of the system.
"I don't like ability damage."
Hate to break it to you, but if you haven't noticed ability damage is something you run into in various forms from 1st level onwards since the inception of 3rd edition.
There's this skill on your cleric's skill list: Heal. It is a REALLY useful skill for thwarting diseases and poisons (the most common vectors for ability damage). Check it out and use it.
Since you haven't bothered to acknowledge the numerous tactical advisements given by several posters in response to your complaint, your group probably in for a bad time in this AP until your group learns to adapt and overcome.
Be glad, VERY glad, your GM is not running you through the Age of Worms. Carrion Crown is a hippy free-love-n-drugs festival that goes all year long compared to AoW.
Another idea for your group: you play some thing other than the cleric (paladin or ranger comes to mind) while any other two characters trade out for a pair of cooperative-built clerics or oracles. Two clerics/oracles "built" to work off of each other - go Team Cleric! - should get any 5-character group through almost any campaign with very little pain and suffering.
Once again AoW gets a mention. Carrion Crown is like a walk in the park by comparison. Darn evil campaign.
<daydreams of the times I ran AoW>off-topic:Is it harder than STAP. I never got to try that one.
.
Fatigue and shaken don't scare players. Ability damage does.
QFT.
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Once again AoW gets a mention. Carrion Crown is like a walk in the park by comparison. Darn evil campaign.
<daydreams of the times I ran AoW>off-topic:Is it harder than STAP. I never got to try that one.
Hells yes, AoW is hands down harder. I ran both campaigns back to back, and Savage Tide was a fluffy walk in the park compared to AoW.
Quick spoilers for AoW;
The worse AoW adventure for deaths in my group was that g#%$+!n ziggurat. I got a TPK against the evil angel with the massively jacked blasphemy ('What do you mean he's high enough caster level that we're all paralysed for 1d10 minutes?!') and I came close in the room with the 4 worm-monsters with the 15d6 negative energy blast they can spam. The party only survived that one due to the fighter's death ward armour and some lucky saves.
Once again AoW gets a mention. Carrion Crown is like a walk in the park by comparison. Darn evil campaign.
<daydreams of the times I ran AoW>off-topic:Is it harder than STAP. I never got to try that one.
Hells yes, AoW is hands down harder. I ran both campaigns back to back, and Savage Tide was a fluffy walk in the park compared to AoW.
Quick spoilers for AoW;
** spoiler omitted **
I had to cut parts of it out.
What is AoW? It sounds awsome. I'll have to get that module if it is as hard as is claimed. See if I can jack my game crew.
** spoiler omitted **Huh. Y'know, reading through this adventure...there's not even that much ability damage/drain.** spoiler omitted **Those are the creatures causing his group that much of a headache?
That list of creatures would be utterly annihilated by any group I run probably before they had a chance to attack more than one character at best. And AoE Channel Energy does a lot of damage against groups of undead creatures.
That list of monsters makes this post make even less sense given the group makeup. Are they missing every Perception check as well or simply doing no scouting? Amazing that a high offense group would have problems with that series of creatures.
Thing with swarms is they don't usually have great skills. So if you properly scout them and then use an AoE effect, they die quickly.
In my game groups Perception is a skill almost everyone builds up since it is so important to survival. So someone usually spots whatever hazard is there and they deal with it more quickly. And knowledge skills are common as well since my players love to know what they're fighting.
And when swarms appear, everyone stops and looks at the wizard or priest and waits for the AoE. Rarely are they dangerous.
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What is AoW? It sounds awsome. I'll have to get that module if it is as hard as is claimed. See if I can jack my game crew.
Age of Worms.The adventure path from dragon magazines numbers 124-135
Carrion Crown is a hippy free-love-n-drugs festival that goes all year long
O_o
Describing anything with Mythos elements like that is pure, delightful madness!
It can't be hippy love, it has Cthulhus in it! Although, Cthulhus have hentacles. I've seen enough hentai to see where this is going ;-)
What is AoW? It sounds awsome. I'll have to get that module if it is as hard as is claimed. See if I can jack my game crew.
Age of Worms, and in my opinion, among others, the most difficult published game since 3.x. The entire game is not as hard as chapter 7, but they still have potential TPK points.
It was published in Dungeon Magazine. Once chapter was released every month. It took place after SCAP, and before STAP.
Paizo may have some of the physical magazines on stock here. Others can be had one other sites such as Ebay and noble knight games.com.
edit:fixed typo.
It was published in Dungeon Magazine. Once chapter was released every month. It took place after STAP, and before SCAP.
Strike that, reverse it. Shackled City (SCAP) came before Age of Worms. Savage Tide (STAP) followed after Age of Worms.
Strike that, reverse it. Shackled City (SCAP) came before Age of Worms. Savage Tide (STAP) followed after Age of Worms.
It was published in Dungeon Magazine. Once chapter was released every month. It took place after STAP, and before SCAP.
I know. I have no idea why I typed that. Time for an edit. :)
Carrion Crown is a hippy free-love-n-drugs festival that goes all year longO_o
Describing anything with Mythos elements like that is pure, delightful madness!
It can't be hippy love, it has Cthulhus in it! Although, Cthulhus have hentacles. I've seen enough hentai to see where this is going ;-)
hentacles ... I like it ...