Undeath Initiate


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

I was looking at the Agent Of the Grave from the #45 AP, specifically the Undeath Intiate ability.

undeath initiate:
Unless otherwise noted by the undead creature’s create spawn ability, the newly created undead agent of the grave loses all of his class levels. This makes transformation into a lich and vampire among the most appealing options for an agent of
the grave seeking undeath.

vampire's create spawn:
A vampire can create spawn out of those it slays with blood drain or energy drain, provided that the slain creature is of the same creature type as the vampire’s base
creature type. The victim rises from death as a vampire in 1d4 days. This vampire is under the command of the vampire that created
it, and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. A vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit become free-willed undead. A vampire may free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.

To me, this would mean a newly created vampire with the undeath initiate ability would lose all of his class levels. I don't see anything in the vampire's create spawn ability about keeping class levels. Am I missing something?


Chris Ballard wrote:
To me, this would mean a newly created vampire with the undeath initiate ability would lose all of his class levels. I don't see anything in the vampire's create spawn ability about keeping class levels. Am I missing something?

Where did you get the notion that vampires lose their original class levels?

Quote:
Create Spawn (Su): A vampire can create spawn out of those it slays with blood drain or energy drain, provided that the slain creature is of the same creature type as the vampire's base creature type. The victim rises from death as a vampire in 1d4 days. This vampire is under the command of the vampire that created it, and remains enslaved until its master's destruction.

So we return to the begining of vampire template and check its HD:

Quote:
Hit Dice: Change all racial Hit Dice to d8s. Class Hit Dice are unaffected. As undead, vampires use their Charisma modifier to determine bonus hit points (instead of Constitution).

To compare: Spectre, Wight and Wraith Create Spawn ability specificially state that new spawns do not possess any abilities they had in life.

Dark Archive

The create spawn.ability makes no mention of retaining class levels, undeath initiate does.


This is the exact same question I had. So far, I haven't found any "Create Spawn" ability that positively affirmed-you get to keep previous class levels/abilities. I have seen a few "Create Spawn" abilities that negatively affirmed-you must lose previous class levels/abilities. Many don't say one way or another.

So, an Undeath Initiate never keeps class levels/abilities? Then why is Vampire and Lich more attractive? Does Undeath Initiate need to be reworded in this regard, or do some "Create Spawn" abilities need to be reworded?


A vampire has the choice of creating a vampire spawn or a full-fledged vampire when it uses its create spawn ability. A vampire spawn has the same stats as a wight except it gains a few vampire abilities.


Nope.

As much as I do love Agent of the Grave, and I do love me some Agent of the Grave!!! It only helps you with intentionally seeking out the Vampire template, not if you were turned by their spawn(s). Many such entrances to Undeath can happen to anyone, by accident... Agent of the Grave is for the dedicated. For those that enter Undeath willingly, by seeking templates.

Vampire Spawn do not have the Vampire template. Clearly getting bitten by some BS minion and dying is not enough to do it correctly...

The Agent of the Grave ability is there to guarantee you have the same free will as before becoming a Lich, you don't turn into some Undead minion for the GM to control. That's it. "I did this on purpose, leave me alone."

It is not protection from being turned. If you die like a sucker, you die like a sucker... as it should be. Being part of a cult doesn't somehow protect you from just flat out being bitten, duh.


I didn't think it gave any protection from being turned. But once turned, do you keep your abilities? And Vampire Spawn don't even have the Create Spawn ability.

So there's this choice the Vampire has, turning someone into either a Vampire Spawn, or a full-fledged Vampire, by using their Create Spawn ability. Fine. That still doesn't clear the issue with Undeath Initiate. The implication here is that if you're turned into a "Vampire Spawn", you lose everything. But if you're turned into a full-fledged Vampire, you keep your levels?

By reading the Create Spawn ability, as detailed by the OP, nothing there says you keep your levels. I guess...maybe the OP and I are reading this a bit too literally? As written, it literally says "Unless otherwise noted by the undead creature’s create spawn ability". No Create Spawn ability ever says otherwise. So even full fledged Vampires (that were Undeath Initiates) would lose their class levels. I guess it's supposed to be by implication. If the Create Spawn ability sends you to a template, and that template allows you to keep your class levels, you keep them.

Maybe these seem like stupid questions, but I do tend to read rules rather literally. And so if the rule says it should be noted in the Create Spawn ability, and it's not noted there...


There is literally no way Agent of the Grave helps you unless you get a template.

Create Spawn does NOT gift you the template.

You have to EARN it other than some dark alley accident...

I know of nearly a dozen different ways into/out of Agent of the Grave... some be Liches, some be Witches (Covens are fun), I even have Woŕms That Walk and incorporeal Wild Shaping Liches... not a single one of them are a filthy freaking Spawn! I even have Dhampir, but it takes more than mere accident to truly embrace the gifts of Undeath.

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