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Given all the Heirloom Weapon discussion in other threads, I thought perhaps we should be discussing traits in general. So... which traits are good traits? Which are bad traits? When is a trait too powerful? When is a trait too weak? What sort of design should go into each of the different trait categories?
Is the standard "+1 Skill and Class Skill" an appropriate point to judge things? Does the lack of a Perception trait in the APG cause problems? Is the Perception trait Just That Much Better or not?
How about, say, the Magic category? Is the fact you can only take one of Focused Mind, Gifted Adept, Magical Knack, and Magical Lineage a good or bad thing?
Let's start the discussion on these little things that are becoming so important to character design.
Has anyone taken the Additional Traits feat?
I've actually done it in PFS to create a 'face' character out of a Witch.
Hmm I did that with Cosmo Feat... perhaps the Traits would have been a superior choice.
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Has anyone taken the Additional Traits feat?If you'd like people to really consider it then I'd suggest that you allow them to take from trait categories that they already have traits.
-James
But does it really matter? Or will the true use boil down to taking both Magical Lineage and Gifted Adept?
What other trait combos would you like to take, but can't because of trait categories?
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When is a trait too powerful? When is a trait too weak? What sort of design should go into each of the different trait categories?
I can't remember where it's stated, but traits are supposed to represent about half a feat as far as power level.
This makes some of them easy to judge: there are traits like Resilient that give you a +1 to a certain save (exactly half of Iron Will/Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes), a few traits that give you +2 to initiative (exactly half of Improved Initiative), and so forth.
Some seem to miss the mark: there's one that, if memory serves, gives a +1 to confirm crits, which is only 1/4 of Critical Focus (though it comes without the BAB requirement, so maybe that's considered to balance it out?).
Others are much harder to quantify: Armor Expert (reduce ACP of your armor by 1) seems really good for a character planning to wear medium or heavy armor. I have a level 3 fighter wearing +1 full plate and, due to masterwork, fighter's armor training, and this trait, has only a -3 armor check penalty.
The "+1 to a skill and make it class" is a little hard to judge, but seems okay in practice. Less constant bonus than something like Alertness, the "make it a class skill" part is potentially redundant (making that bit worse than Skill Focus), so I guess it's not too far from "half a feat" in power.
I've taken the extra traits feat once. It's worth it for the right builds.
When is a trait too powerful? When is a trait too weak? What sort of design should go into each of the different trait categories?I can't remember where it's stated, but traits are supposed to represent about half a feat as far as power level.
This makes some of them easy to judge: there are traits like Resilient that give you a +1 to a certain save (exactly half of Iron Will/Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes), a few traits that give you +2 to initiative (exactly half of Improved Initiative), and so forth.
Some seem to miss the mark: there's one that, if memory serves, gives a +1 to confirm crits, which is only 1/4 of Critical Focus (though it comes without the BAB requirement, so maybe that's considered to balance it out?).
Others are much harder to quantify: Armor Expert (reduce ACP of your armor by 1) seems really good for a character planning to wear medium or heavy armor. I have a level 3 fighter wearing +1 full plate and, due to masterwork, fighter's armor training, and this trait, has only a -3 armor check penalty.
The "+1 to a skill and make it class" is a little hard to judge, but seems okay in practice. Less constant bonus than something like Alertness, the "make it a class skill" part is potentially redundant (making that bit worse than Skill Focus), so I guess it's not too far from "half a feat" in power.
Armor Expert is actually good for a non-armor-proficient character. It allows the character to wear Studded Leather or Parade Armor without any penalty.
I'll have to track it down, I can't remember exactly which character. I remember that between the traits and the racial abilities, I had very nice bonuses to most of will and fortitude saves, especially will saves.
Traits are optional, and should be viewed as RolePlay boosters, not additionnal bonuses.
Traits are optional, and should be viewed as RolePlay boosters, not additionnal bonuses.
+1
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I also used my traits to make my Witch a socially capable character, picking up Bluff and Diplomacy. I'm a big fan.
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Traits are optional, and should be viewed as RolePlay boosters, not additionnal bonuses.
This actually part of WHY it's important to examine their power level. I mean, it kind of hurts roleplaying if every random schmuck has an amazing weapon handed down through generations. If the traits are balanced in power level, people will have more room to consider what fits the character concept better. If a few traits are excessively powerful, then you end up with a lot of people wanting the same traits, and that makes for really weird worlds. :P
Traits are optional, and should be viewed as RolePlay boosters, not additionnal bonuses.
I disagree. The point of traits is to give minor mechanical advantages to incentivise said roleplay boosters. If they were just roleplay boosters there would be no need for a mechanical tie in of any kind. The point is to make fleshing out your character more appealing. If the only reason they existed was to boost roleplay, they could just be a list of ideas for characters. No need for trait bonuses of any kind.
For me, a good trait is not that is not readily dismissed or forgotten about. For instance in the kingmaker players guide there is a trait that gives you a social bonus when dealing with 'brigands'. The character had the opportunity to use it like twice, and so it was forgotten, along with what it might have meant for his character. Traits should be memorable both in terms of flavor and background, and in terms of what you can do with them mechanically or else they will quickly be forgotten, and thus serve no purpose.
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Traits are optional, and should be viewed as RolePlay boosters, not additionnal bonuses.This actually part of WHY it's important to examine their power level. I mean, it kind of hurts roleplaying if every random schmuck has an amazing weapon handed down through generations. If the traits are balanced in power level, people will have more room to consider what fits the character concept better. If a few traits are excessively powerful, then you end up with a lot of people wanting the same traits, and that makes for really weird worlds. :P
Worlds in which we're all beat up a lot for holding the family falcata? ;)
I've seen a couple of people take Extra Traits (generally Magical Knack and a couple of others).
The most powerful traits I can think of are Magical Knack, the old version of Heirloom Weapon and maybe Rich Parents (if your game ends at a low level). My most-taken trait would probably be Birthmark. My least favourites are ones that only apply in a very narrow situation, like "+1 to Sense Motive and Acrobatics while you're climbing a tree" or whatever.
I've seen a couple of people take Extra Traits (generally Magical Knack and a couple of others).
The most powerful traits I can think of are Magical Knack, the old version of Heirloom Weapon and maybe Rich Parents (if your game ends at a low level). My most-taken trait would probably be Birthmark. My least favourites are ones that only apply in a very narrow situation, like "+1 to Sense Motive and Acrobatics while you're climbing a tree" or whatever.
I agree about the situational traits. I put those in the category of traits that are often forgotten about. And my personal favorite traits are the ones that add skills as class skilss. It allows you to add something to the character you normally couldn't. +1 to hit or +x on initiative can come from other places, but class skills are harder to come by unless you multiclass.
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I don't know how many of those "get the bonus while doing such-and-such" traits there are, but I know one guy locally has been having fun with such a trait in PFS. He gets some bonuses any time he's trying to free slaves.
And he's playing an Andoran.
I don't know how many of those "get the bonus while doing such-and-such" traits there are, but I know one guy locally has been having fun with such a trait in PFS. He gets some bonuses any time he's trying to free slaves.
And he's playing an Andoran.
I dont play PFS but how often does that actually come up? In terms of most adventures I have played this would have been painfully rare including several adventure paths written by paizo.
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I love birthmark. The one character that I gave extra traits to was a gnome, and after all was said and done, he had bonuses vs illusion, charm, compulsion, fear, and something else along those lines. I took the feat because I envisioned him to be a stubborn, hard to fool, hard to sway individual, and the extra traits let me get the mechanical bonuses to back that up. One of my biggest annoyances is coming up with a personality like that and having a will save that consistently makes him fall asleep, run away, fall under magical compulsion, and other things that just don't match what I am expecting from the character. To me, it's not about the boosts, it's about giving some kind of mechanical backing to the concept I want to develop to decrease the dissonance between the character in my head and the character on the character sheet.
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I dont play PFS but how often does that actually come up? In terms of most adventures I have played this would have been painfully rare including several adventure paths written by paizo.I don't know how many of those "get the bonus while doing such-and-such" traits there are, but I know one guy locally has been having fun with such a trait in PFS. He gets some bonuses any time he's trying to free slaves.
And he's playing an Andoran.
For Andorans, that actually comes up more often than you'd think. Like 1/3 of scenarios, or thereabouts. At least, among the ones at my FLGS.
I dont play PFS but how often does that actually come up? In terms of most adventures I have played this would have been painfully rare including several adventure paths written by paizo.I don't know how many of those "get the bonus while doing such-and-such" traits there are, but I know one guy locally has been having fun with such a trait in PFS. He gets some bonuses any time he's trying to free slaves.
And he's playing an Andoran.
For Andorans, that actually comes up more often than you'd think. Like 1/3 of scenarios, or thereabouts. At least, among the ones at my FLGS.
I am guessing this has to do with the faction missions built into pathfinder society scenarios?
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I think there might be a few different categories here of interest:
Skill traits: Most traits are of this variety. One skill becomes a class skill, and you get a +1 bonus in it. Easy to understand, easy to use. The only real question is whether the skills are balanced against each other. The lack of a Perception trait in the APG has gathered notice.
Combat traits: The +2 Initiative traits get the most notice here. I understand why; lots of folks swear by initiative. I don't, personally, but I'd still say it's balanced. The issue comes when comparing against traits like Anatomist or Bullied; do they compare?
Magic traits: I know many a caster who wishes they could take multiple traits off the Magic list, or even a trait like Magical Knack or Magical Lineage multiple times. I personally think that keeping the one-trait-per-category limitation exists mainly because of this list, and that it's good that way. But I'm willing to listen to arguments to the contrary.
Save traits: Here's where you get a lot of variation. The basic traits offer +1 to Fort, Ref, or Will. Perfect, in line with other traits. Then there are traits that give you a situational bonus, and that's where it gets sticky. From Kingmaker, Issian grants you +1 Will vs. mind-affecting; that's strictly worse than Indomitable Faith. Others, like Skeptic, grant +2 vs. Illusions--more situational, but higher bonus. They seem balanced, but it depends on the campaign in question.
Regional Traits: These are slightly better than standard traits, but have a more stringent RP requirement. Not sure that's fair, but there you go.
Mixed traits: These combine a potpourri of situational bonuses into a single whole. Rather unique, and definitely depends on the campaign.
So, all in all, trait power levels do seem to vary considerably. That makes their mechanical choice drive RP choice, and I don't like that.
So, which traits pull us away from Krimson's ideal?
I am making an Alchemist(Vivisectionist)/Ranger character for a sneak frontline fighter type that has some self buffs.
Magical Knack is really useful when multiclassing any kind of fighter/caster. I can take a 2 level dip into ranger without cratering my caster level.
Armor Expert is like having a +2 to my AC because it lets me run around with mithril breastplate with no armor check penalty. without it, I would have to stick with mithril chain shirt, or take a -1 to stealth, sleight of hand, climb, and swim.
My players have been drooling over both "Missionary" and "Lore Seeker." (they're basically the same thing)
If you hold off until you're slightly higher level, then drop the Additional Traits feat, this allows you to pick your favorite save-or-suck spell (that you will be dedicated to metamagicing) and go to party on it.
I think that these traits are each worth a whole feat, rather than half of one.
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But does it really matter? Or will the true use boil down to taking both Magical Lineage and Gifted Adept?
What other trait combos would you like to take, but can't because of trait categories?
Hedge Magician and Eldritch Smith (Dwarf) for 5% off the cost of making magic items... twice...
Also,
As a side note regarding Traits. The "Extra Traits" feat often beats the pants off of the "Hermean Blood" feat (Which gives you two skills as class skills, without the additional +1) from the inner sea world guide.
Alchemical Prodigy (Qadira)P from Qadira: Gateway to the East page 25 is also interesting. It allows you to make a potion with a spell not on your school list, which... even with the requirement that it be a 1st level spell is pretty amazing... is there any other way to do that in Pathfinder other than multi-classing?
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Magical Knack is more of a fix for the weakness of multiclassed spellcasters than a balanced trait. It should probably either be part of the core rules (eg. if your preferred class is a spellcaster get it for free, but it's not available as a trait) or beefed up a little and made a feat. +3 to caster level for one class as a feat would work better and allow people who decide they want to multiclass at times other than their first level to not fail as badly.
What if
+1 caster level up to your max hit diewas available as a favored class bonus?
the original version of heirloom weapon wasn't really that bad.
people saw the trait through rose colored glasses because of either extremely forgiving DMs or PFS. both of which will rarely ever deny you the ability to use your heirloom. i beleive that the value of the original trait may have been inflated because the weaknesses were either ignored, or the 'entitled' player would throw a hissy fit that you destroyed his weapon and gimped his build.
they forget that you only benefit from the trait when you use that specific weapon and they forget that you won't always have access to it. maybe the weapon is lost of stolen, maybe you are facing a DR value that you cannot beat with that weapon and are forced to use something else. maybe that weapon gets badly damaged or even destroyed. maybe you had to leave the weapon with a shady wizard to get it enchanted. maybe your family asked for the weapon back because of something you did. there are just so many variables that could affect your ability to benefit from the weapon.
plus getting a cheaper psuedo exotic weapon proficinecy isn't that bad either. most exotic weapons aren't worth the feat, and if you really wanted to specialize in the weapon, you still had to take the feat.
from what i have experienced with weekly william, he further punishes players (in game) who either have a sense of 'entitlement' or call him out on his inconsistent selective rules changes or his appearant favoritism.
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I personally stick to the traits that enhance something that comes up often and isn't too situational. I've picked up the additional traits feat in my PFS game because there are enough interesting traits (in different categories) to make me quite happy, those being:
Warrior of Old (elven race trait) - Excellent way to get a +2 trait bonus to all initiative checks while leaving open your other trait categories. I've found this to be fantastically useful.
Focused mind (magic trait) - Knack is of no use to me as a pure wizard and some of the other traits are sweet, but +2 to every concentration check I make (unlike combat casting's threat requirement) comes up a good deal in society games.
Eastern mystery - Another Qadira faction trait (alchemical prodigy was mentioned earlier) - This one is simply excellent for a caster-type as it adds 2 to the DC of any one spell you choose that day. I generally use this with whatever I feel is a critical spell for the adventure, and when used in conjunction with a spell that has been enhanced by the persistent spell metamagic feat, it's just vicious (blindness for me is an 18 fort save, but with persistent and east mystery, it requires two consecutive DC 20 fort saves or be blinded permanently).
The other is a simple +1 will save feat, just because my wisdom is 8 and in Pathfinder, failing a will save usually means you're in deep, deep trouble.
The key point is that, thus far, I've found each trait to be both useful and valuable in every adventure, and at core that's what I find makes for effective choices. For that reason I'm also a huge fan of armor expert, though I don't use it with this character.
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I've taken additional traits for a character. I don't have him in front of me at the moment but i think it was tusked, reactionary, accelerated drinker, and the trait that gives a bonus to will saves (or maybe the half or one that gives you a bonus to charge speed). I was pretty happy with the combo. Finding four traits that are interesting in different categories is challenging though.
I have to say I prefer the traits from the racial books best because they tend to have a bit more flavor IMO.
Its hard to say what exactly makes a trait balanced, it is largely a tightrope act. If a trait is obviously better than other traits (heirloom weapon being an obvious example) then it's probably too powerful.
Personally I like the plus one/ class skill traits because it's a quit way to pick up plus four in a non class skill you want to pick up. I know lots of people use goldfinger, I use brightness seeker to pick up k(local) and I've used it to grab diplomacy also.
The funny thing about good traits is they often affect the way players role play their characters.