I'm DM'ing a 11 level party. What can I and my players do to spead up combat? I really want encounters to go smoothly but we spend too much time getting bogged down in the mechanics of everything. Aside from obvious things like Roll to hit and Damage dice at once, what else is out there?
What are you specific problems?
How experienced is the group?
Can you give an example of a recent issue?
PS:You double posted so I flagged the other thread. That should drive everyone to this post once a Paizo official gets to it.
What are you specific problems?
How experienced is the group?
Can you give an example of a recent issue?PS:You double posted so I flagged the other thread. That should drive everyone to this post once a Paizo official gets to it.
Thanks!
During battles. One time we went through 10 rounds in 2 hours! It was stupid. 3/5 players are very experienced. The rest are fairly experienced players. All the players know the basic rules.
What are you specific problems?
How experienced is the group?
Can you give an example of a recent issue?PS:You double posted so I flagged the other thread. That should drive everyone to this post once a Paizo official gets to it.
Thanks!
During battles. One time we went through 10 rounds in 2 hours! It was stupid. 3/5 players are very experienced. The rest are fairly experienced players. All the players know the basic rules.
1) Try to plan your turn when it's not your turn
2) Have attack and damage dice ready to be rolled2b) If you have enough dice, roll attack and damage dice together
3) Spell cheat sheets are fantastical. instead of having to look up a different spell each time it's cast, just print them out on note cards or something
4) GMs: have your players ACs and Saves handy. If they trust you on your own rolls, you won't have to constantly keep asking what their AC and Saves are.
5) Have someone always keep track of initiative.
What are you specific problems?
How experienced is the group?
Can you give an example of a recent issue?PS:You double posted so I flagged the other thread. That should drive everyone to this post once a Paizo official gets to it.
Thanks!
During battles. One time we went through 10 rounds in 2 hours! It was stupid. 3/5 players are very experienced. The rest are fairly experienced players. All the players know the basic rules.1) Try to plan your turn when it's not your turn
2) Have attack and damage dice ready to be rolled
2b) If you have enough dice, roll attack and damage dice together
3) Spell cheat sheets are fantastical. instead of having to look up a different spell each time it's cast, just print them out on note cards or something
4) GMs: have your players ACs and Saves handy. If they trust you on your own rolls, you won't have to constantly keep asking what their AC and Saves are.
5) Have someone always keep track of initiative.
These are a lot of the problems we have.
What are you specific problems?
How experienced is the group?
Can you give an example of a recent issue?PS:You double posted so I flagged the other thread. That should drive everyone to this post once a Paizo official gets to it.
Thanks!
During battles. One time we went through 10 rounds in 2 hours! It was stupid. 3/5 players are very experienced. The rest are fairly experienced players. All the players know the basic rules.
Higher level battles do take a lot longer. The monsters have more attacks. You have more attacks. People have to save vs spells. If you get buffed or debuffed you have to recalculate stats.
I have never taken 2 hours on 10 rounds though. If the fight goes 15 rounds it might happen.
One thing I do is precalculate everything if possible.
Example
Let's say I have a ranger with favored enemy and rapid shot, and deadly aim.
All of these modify your attack and/or damage rolls.
I have the modifiers figured out for every possible combination
Regular attack
Attack with rapid shot
Regular attack with deadly aim.
rapid shot plus deadly aim
ect
This might mean you need an index card, but it makes things a lot easier. I also always have any summons I might used already printed up as a GM or player.
If the caster's in the party have a common buff I have that on statted out also, and I encourage others to do the same.
I also let one of the players track initiative. Everything the GM does not have to do makes the game speed up.
I also have a short version of my common spells written down.
It normally includes a short description if needed, range, saving throw, or whatever it is that I might need. I do know many spells by heart, but for some reason there are certain spells I always have to look up even if I always use them.
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I'm DM'ing a 11 level party. What can I and my players do to spead up combat? I really want encounters to go smoothly but we spend too much time getting bogged down in the mechanics of everything. Aside from obvious things like Roll to hit and Damage dice at once, what else is out there?
1. No backsies. Once you say "I attack", you attack, and you must follow through, unless you are prevented from doing so. Once you declare a movement, or move your miniature, that's where he goes, and you can't take it back. Unless the movement was in some way illegal. However, even with illegal moves and actions, sometimes you might just want to allow it anyways, if it's already done, and chalk it up to the intervention of the Goddess of Luck.
2. Limit advice/consultation to six-second bites, and only one other player can give advice.
3. Practice, and learn the rules.
4. Make a social contract that some rulings will be made without reference to the official rules, if such reference would take too much time. Serious disputes and issues, if they come up, can be put off until after the game session. If you end up screwing a player, you can probably fix it by granting them a small boon later.
5. Run easier and quicker in-game fights. Not every encounter should be seriously threatening to the PCs, and encounters don't have to last 10 rounds or more. Some epic battles can last that long, but the average can be around 3-4 rounds. Have you ever played road hockey? That's the closest I've ever been to fighting, and even just playing road hockey, a minute seems like forever.
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You, as a DM, con't possibly know everything. Have players learn and know their spells/special attacks, specially at high levels...
- "Wizard, it's your turn."
- "I cast Disintegrate at the demon."
- "Ok, roll to bypass the Spell Resistance; It'll be tough, lol."
- "I rolled 16... What do I add to that?"
- "Your caster level."
- "Ok, plus 13. 29!"
- "Cool. Your spell might have a chance to work. Does it allow a saving throw?"
- "Uh... Just a moment..." (Wizard player flips through the pages of the core rulebook for two minutes.) "... Yeah, it does"
The DM rolls the die - "Wow. Natural 20! Do I still recieve damage even if I save?"
- "Uh... Just a moment..." (Wizard picks up the core rulebook again) "yeah... But only 5d6! 17."
- "Ok, the demon lets out a short scream, but still looks mighty threatning. Barbarian, it's your turn."
- "Ok, I rage and try to grapple it!"
- "Sure."
- "What do I have to roll again?"
- "Sigh..."
I think THIS is the #1 reason melee takes forever at high levels. The unreadiness of players.
Ultradan
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This is why I find Perram's Spellbook really handy.
I've been using it as a player and it's great to have the full spell rules on hand right when needed. I even printed out spell decks for the rest of the spellcasters in the party.
You, as a DM, con't possibly know everything. Have players learn and know their spells/special attacks, specially at high levels...
- "Wizard, it's your turn."
- "I cast Disintegrate at the demon."
- "Ok, roll to bypass the Spell Resistance; It'll be tough, lol."
- "I rolled 16... What do I add to that?"
- "Your caster level."
- "Ok, plus 13. 29!"
- "Cool. Your spell might have a chance to work. Does it allow a saving throw?"
- "Uh... Just a moment..." (Wizard player flips through the pages of the core rulebook for two minutes.) "... Yeah, it does"
The DM rolls the die - "Wow. Natural 20! Do I still recieve damage even if I save?"
- "Uh... Just a moment..." (Wizard picks up the core rulebook again) "yeah... But only 5d6! 17."
- "Ok, the demon lets out a short scream, but still looks mighty threatning. Barbarian, it's your turn."
- "Ok, I rage and try to grapple it!"
- "Sure."
- "What do I have to roll again?"
- "Sigh..."I think THIS is the #1 reason melee takes forever at high levels. The unreadiness of players.
Ultradan
Exactly. I tend to roll before it's my turn and add the numbers ahead of time, leaving the dice where they lay to ease the DM'd mind about potential cheating. Also I know what my spells do and how to use them. My turns go something like this;
I cast disintegrate. SR roll is XX total. Does that overcome his SR? If so roll a Fort save DC XX.
SR is overcome (dice rolls) he fails his save.
Great that'll be 10D6 damage please.
He's dust.
Super.
Yeah, the way I handle this is to impose a time limit.
If a player doesn't know what his ability/spell does then he has to delay while he figures the whole thing out and other players/monster act until he can come up with the rules.
Also if a player want additional information, keep it short. There is only so much you can do in 6 seconds. Give her a bit of info and if she then requests additional info delay that until her turn comes up again.
This works quite well but you also have to be able to describe the situation exactly (for complicated combat a battle mat helps).
Also you should know your monsters very well, your players will be pi**ed, and rightly so, if you rush them like hell and then take all the time in the world to plan your monsters actions.
I have taken to insisting my players say what they are going to do immediately. If they have to think about it or look something up in a book first they delay until they are ready. This forces players to keep their minds on their actions away from their turns. By high levels you have like a billion options to choose from of what to do, and its important for them to know which they are going to do before their turn comes. So their turn is ONLY rolling dice, moving minis and determining results (hopefully with some fun description thrown in there too).
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As others have alluded to, speedy play really boils down to trust:
1) The players need to trust the DM's ability to adjudicate a fair game without looking up the rules during play.
2) The DM needs to trust the players's ability to describe their character's abilities and their impact on the play world.
Rule of thumb is, when in doubt just say 'okay...' and keep playing. Look it up later, argue about it later, but in the session itself, focus on the fun.
If you are using a computer during play for notes, the program at the following site really speeds up combat, it has the spell and feat descriptions built in, as well as the monster descriptions, so if you do need to reference during play you only have to click one button.
Go to Combat Manager.
If you are using a computer during play for notes, the program at the following site really speeds up combat, it has the spell and feat descriptions built in, as well as the monster descriptions, so if you do need to reference during play you only have to click one button.
Go to Combat Manager.
Seconded. I ran a very high level game and discovered this--it saved me loads of prep time and was an easy way to track initiative and monster conditions---plus has a feat and spell look up for easy reference (a lot easier than flipping through books). I'd wished I'd found it earlier!
If you don't use a computer, I'd suggest at least getting the initiative tracker magnet board from Game Mastery, or writing initiative prominently on your battle board so people know their turn is coming up.
Also--when something starts getting complicated and people aren't sure of the rules, don't be afraid to wing it. Sometimes it's best for all concerned to just say, "As GM, this is how we are going to handle X for now. We'll look up the rules after the session when we have time and agree on an official ruling for the future then." Of course, for this to work, players also need to be agreeable to reasonable GM calls made for the purposes of time--and remind them sometimes skipping over something or speeding something up is for their benefit, to keep the pace of the game going.
One more thing that can help---it may be undesirable for some play styles, but it may help speed things up --- write down a creature's AC, CMD, SR, and DR on the battleboard, on a piece of paper, on a spare tile you can place next to the creature. I know it's "better" for players to not know these things ahead of time in terms of immersiveness, but when things are getting slow, the constant question of "Do I hit?" "Do I beat its SR?" etc. can REALLY slow things down that there's no immersion anyway. Make these numbers accessible and players can calculate the effects of their actions much more easily and quickly. I wish I remembered to do this more often in my own games, actually. When I did do it, it helped.
One thing I do, and this requires a certain level of trust, is have my players pre-roll while they are waiting for their turn.
So, they pre-roll the to-hit and find out which AC they hit. Then they roll the damage for that hit. Repeat for multiple attacks. When it is their turn they'll say "Does AC 28 hit?" "Yes." "Okay, damage is 34" etc etc
Now, the pre-planning may not work because of actions that happen before the players turn but usually the pre-rolling is quite helpful. Or if you have players that fudge their dice rolls, but that is a whole other problem.
Awesome suggestions.
One more thing to add, and maybe it won't work for you, since you're already at level 11, but I'll say it anyways. Part of the reason that levels exist at all is to let the players and the DM get used to all the things they can do. This is also why a slow track of XP progression exists. Consider taking advantage of the slower rate of XP and level gain.
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And once you start hitting level 18+ (or worse, epic levels!) it's probably more efficient to just calculate the averages for damage (eg. +1d6 sneak attack deals 3 damage, +2d6 deals 7 damage, +3d6 deals 10 damage [rounded down from 10.5], etc.) and use those.
Playing my favorite character, an epic-level Rogue/Ranger/Shadowdancer/Swordsage that can max out at 20+ attacks per round (30+ in two levels) dealing +12d6 sneak attack damage each would otherwise require literal buckets of dice. :P
I was also going to suggest averaging dice so you don't even need to roll much. Precalculate all of your damages (half.5 dice value). Just roll to hit when needed and add you totals together.
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During battles. One time we went through 10 rounds in 2 hours! It was stupid. 3/5 players are very experienced. The rest are fairly experienced players. All the players know the basic rules.
I think you have other problems. Ten rounds of combat in two hours is 12 minutes per round. That's really not that bad depending on terrain, number of combatants, etc. I've been in combats which have taken two hours for six rounds of combat. That is slow.
What is the composition and standard tactics of your group? Barring major environment effects which make it hard to close for combat (flying, underwater, ice, etc), combats should be over in 2-3 rounds for a balanced party. "Boss" fights will take longer, but that is fine because it should be a memorable fight.
During battles. One time we went through 10 rounds in 2 hours! It was stupid. 3/5 players are very experienced. The rest are fairly experienced players. All the players know the basic rules.I think you have other problems. Ten rounds of combat in two hours is 12 minutes per round. That's really not that bad depending on terrain, number of combatants, etc. I've been in combats which have taken two hours for six rounds of combat. That is slow.
What is the composition and standard tactics of your group? Barring major environment effects which make it hard to close for combat (flying, underwater, ice, etc), combats should be over in 2-3 rounds for a balanced party. "Boss" fights will take longer, but that is fine because it should be a memorable fight.
I was rather amused about a 10 round fight taking 2 hours. That is about how long it takes my group at any level above say 3rd. We played in epic levels back in 3.0, and we pretty much always fought bosses. There were games that lasted 10 hours or more where the 10 round fight took over eight of those hours.
I believe its the way we play, illustrated by a previous poster.
"Wizard cast Disintegrate.....whats the save? Whats the SR? Whats the damage if saved? " "Who's initiative is it?"
It sounds like other people have extremely long battles as well. All the battles I run are challenging. I think its a waste of time to run easy encounters. No fear of death = No Fun..imo.
My game must run combat like there is a sense of urgency. It doesn't look as if we have a system in place to greatly reduce the amount of time it takes to run a high level combat in a timely manner. After reading some posts it appears my party isn't doing too bad! lol.
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Here's some of my thoughts on it. Note that Combat Manager might work great for you - it's of no value to me since I don't bring a laptop to the table.
Also note that I run very high level combats (like DeathQuaker does) and the biggest delay in my games is the spellcasters.
But my number one suggestion is Use 4x6 cards for initiative.
- Use one card per monster or group of monsters, and one card per player.
- Keep spare cards handy, that way you can add additional ones on the fly.
- Write the initiative counts on the cards and sort 'em as you do so, and also use the cards to track monster hit points.
- When you have a multi-round effect (e.g. acid damage for 2 rounds) you can note it on the card and check off the rounds.
- When someone delays or readies, you turn their card sideways and move on.
- When a spellcaster dithers too long, you first announce "six seconds, remember a round is six seconds." Then, if they still dither, you announce "okay, you delay to think about what you're casting" and move on.
- As player A is going, you say "You're next, be ready" to player B and "You're after Player B" to Player C.
- Limit how many suggestions other players offer spellcasters. A single "Throw a fireball at the archers!" is okay. Ten minutes of back and forth on the merits of various spells is not okay. Remember, speech may be a free action, but it takes the same time in game and out of game, and a round is six seconds.
This more than anything has sped up combats drastically for me.
Note that I like to make sure there's several initiative counts for the monsters; this makes the back-and-forth of the battle more interesting.
Some other things I do:
- As much as possible, make a single printed sheet per monster that includes the descriptions of its special abilities, not just the names, and I clip those to my GM screen during the combat.
- I keep a pad handy to jot down notes.
- I tend to plan out typical monster tactics vs. the character party ahead of time so that I'm not delaying the game. I don't mean jerky GM metagaming, I mean what the creatures would likely do when running into the PCs.
- Don't have every encounter be a day-ending resource drainer. Simple, short encounters can be just as fun, allow the party to feel powerful, and let them get experience in combat.
- When a creature only has a few hit points left, I'll ask what the minimum damage is before they roll - that might save a roll and addition of dice.
- I trust the players to roll ahead, but ask that they keep track of order (in case they take things down and have Cleave, for example).
- These days, I often use average damage, but realize that sometimes I'm dealing with a hundred dice or more. That's not something that's going to happen around 11th level :)
I'm sure there's more, but that's all I've got off the top of my head for now.
It sounds like other people have extremely long battles as well. All the battles I run are challenging. I think its a waste of time to run easy encounters. No fear of death = No Fun..imo.
I partly disagree. But I will also point out that there are other ways to scare characters. For example, use ambushes by otherwise weak monsters. Scare the party in the first round with some huge sneak attack damage, or something similar; but end the encounter quickly. Also, use instant death effects; I know you probably hate them, but they're not so bad in a fight that lasts 1-2 rounds. And it totally makes sense for bad guys to try to learn big game-ending spells.
And on another note: tactically minded NPCs (and PCs to an extent, but that would be up to them) should be able to intuit which way a battle is going to go. 30 seconds (5 rounds) of adrenaline-filled fighting is plenty of time to assess the situation, and also enough to ensure that combatants are already feeling tired, even though there aren't any mechanical effects yet. If it looks like the PCs are outclassing the NPCs in damage, even if they know it's going to take a while before they go down, the NPCs should order a retreat/surrender.
YMMV, of course, with creatures that have less concern for their own lives and the lives of their comrades. But even with undead, there are tactical considerations to consider. If the necromancer is running out of minions, it's true he can always make new ones, but his current precious cushion is getting smaller, and he probably doesn't even want to give the PCs a chance to touch him at all. At the very least, the necromancer himself will bugger off, leaving the PCs to whittle away at the undead minions' hp.
Just a few points:
1) First and foremost, long combats are not necessarily a problem. If the group is having fun, it's not a problem. If people are getting bored, it is.
2) GM organization is key. Lots of good ideas here for how to get organized, so just pick one and go with it. The goal is to speed your own pace up.
3) Player organization is the second key. Again, lots of different ways you can accomplish that, with the goal of each player picking up their own pace. GM "encouragement" is probably needed here. Be ruthless about enforcing time limits for taking their turn. If someone isn't ready when their turn comes up, just declare their character is holding action until they are ready. Once this results in player turns getting skipped and monsters beating on their characters that can't make up their minds what to do, you'll be amazed how motivated they become to be ready when their turn comes. That may result in players not picking the optimal action each turn, but rather settling for the first decent action they can think of, which has the added virtue of being much more realistic.
4) I'm not a big fan of having players roll ahead of time. While many players can be trusted to do so, it creates a temptation for others (including some I know who are really good and fun players) to cheat. I prefer just to eliminate the temptation by making it harder to cheat.
5) Similarly, not a big fan of revealing monster/NPC stats to players. It might speed things up, but the cost in immersion and temptation to metagame outweigh the gain in time, in my opinion.
6) Ignore the folks who tell you that all fights should be over in one or two rounds. They are playing a very distinct and popular style, but it's hardly the only way to play. Plenty of tables out there are still having long, epic and very cinematic fights. If you're enjoying yourself, make no apologies for the way you play.
6) Ignore the folks who tell you that all fights should be over in one or two rounds.
hopefully no one on this forum has been saying that. There's a big difference between saying "all fights should be over quickly" and "most fights should be over quickly". If you have quick fights, you can still have long epic fights. That's the beauty of quick fights.
They are playing a very distinct and popular style, but it's hardly the only way to play.
I think the long, "epic" combat is the style that is too popular. I don't actually know what the most popular style of gaming is, but in my view, the best style is a varied style. Which means yes, do the epic combats. But also run quick fights. And because they're quick, you can run more of them.
I am worried for a campaign run by a GM who thinks that a fight that ends in 1-2 rounds is a failure. Not every fight should end this way, but it's fine even if most do. Because you can always conjure more encounters when one ends too quickly.
Plenty of tables out there are still having long, epic and very cinematic fights. If you're enjoying yourself, make no apologies for the way you play.
More power to you if you can make a long, epic fight also cinematic, but in my experience these are the least cinematic. They're pretty awesome in that first round, when you can impress your players with descriptions of all the combatants. But after that, they tend to become tedious.